Replaced Loader in Bravo D1 - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 746 Old 08-25-2003, 03:17 PM
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Jason,

I have one of those external USB cases where you can plug in hard drives, DVD drives etc. I plugged its power connector into the D1's DVD drive.

The problem with the D1 is that you cannot replace the power card in there - there is a proprietary connection to the decoder card. So it needs to stay. You would need to put in another power supply card in the case and connect it to a power source (hard to do). The D1 case is low-profile.

One idea - is there a way to use a power "brick" that covers 120V -> 12V and somehow hook it up to the DVD drive? Would this work?

Rich
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post #182 of 746 Old 08-25-2003, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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The DVD Loader requires 5 & 12 volts. If you do try using a computer P/S MAKE SURE THE TWO CHASSIS ARE CONNECTED TOGETHER WITH A JUMPER WIRE.
The D1 P/S has non-standard output voltages for operating It's hardware.

EDIT: I have had problems with the mating connector that plugs into the CD/DVD Drives, in that the connector socket was not tight around the 4 Power pins, with computers in the past. These connectors are used extensively in computers and are inexpensive and are not designed to be constantly connected and removed. But they can be "tightened up"


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post #183 of 746 Old 08-25-2003, 04:34 PM
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Thanks, John.

On the second power supply - is there anything I would need to jumper to get it to power the connectors or does it do it by itself? I assume that when you hit the power switch on a PC, it jumpers two signals to get the power supply to power up?

Rich
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post #184 of 746 Old 08-25-2003, 04:42 PM
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What's the model number on the Lite-on that everyone is having success with?

I tried a samsung drive and a hitachi drive... They were both superior to the stock drive, but mounting would be a pain since they didn't line up good.
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post #185 of 746 Old 08-25-2003, 04:47 PM
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LiteOn XJ-HD166S
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post #186 of 746 Old 08-25-2003, 09:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Rich,

If you are trying out a second P/S for the Loader (DVD Drive), I would turn on the second P/S before turning on the D1. Beware that computer P/S are designed to have a minimum load (mother board, H.D.,etc.) or they will not regulate properly. So I would just tie in to a working computer and try using one of the "extra" Drive power connectors if that is what you are trying to do, and don't forget to connect the chassis together.
I feel that power supply problems are most likely rare for the D1's (based on what I have read @ AVS, and my testing 3 units) and it would be best to just have the unit replaced.

John

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post #187 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 02:59 AM
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Viper,

I just installed my new XJ-HD166S into the D1 and it works and looks great (still trying to get it more flush with the front).

I'm just wondering if your Lite On makes a kind of "springy", squeaky sound when you were handling it. I mean I can just slightly move it in my hand and I hear what sounds like gears moving inside. I wonder if this is normal?

In the end, it doesn't seem to make this sound once mounted and working inside the D1.

Thanks,
D
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post #188 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 03:54 AM
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DMILANI< Yes mine does that also, matter of a fact both Lite_ons I have do that.

Viper
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post #189 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 04:23 AM
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Ok, now I know that it's "normal".

Thanks,
D
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post #190 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 05:15 AM
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DMILANI

Yes, that sound in the LiteOn is PERFECTLY normal. There are small ball bearings inside for stability when spinning. I read this somewhere (can't remember where).


VIPER, MediocreFred,

Did you guys flash the LiteOn with the latest firmware from the Internet before connecting it to the D1, or are you using the firmware that the LiteOn shipped with?

Thanks.

Manendra

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who hate the Klan
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post #191 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 07:33 AM
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One problem with this replace loader/power supply idea is that it let's V inc. off the hook.....

These defective units really should be sent back. If you get a 2nd defective I'd insist they cover the shipping cost, and send it back again.
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post #192 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 07:48 AM - Thread Starter
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David....Your ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!

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post #193 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 09:51 AM
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John and all -

Think I am going to order one of these to stuff into the D1. Design seems to stress how quiet and vibration free it is.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...roductSpec.pdf

Also, spec says "The drive automatically slows down disc rotation speed to ensure data reading when unbalanced, warped or scratched disc is read."

Sounds like a good feature, although for all I know, this is standard behavior for all disk drives.

Any feedback on this unit? Barring anything overtly negative from you guys, I will try one and post results.

BB
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post #194 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Hi Brandon,

I think the Pioneer 120 is at Best Buy, you could just try it out. If you recall I have the 120S Slot Loader and it had the Chapter Skip @ Layer change issue; however the 120 uses different firmware.
As far as drives slowing down to minimize unbalance I have seen that on a few units...the Lite-On for one.

John

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post #195 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 01:09 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mpedris
DMILANI

Did you guys flash the LiteOn with the latest firmware from the Internet before connecting it to the D1, or are you using the firmware that the LiteOn shipped with?

Thanks.

As far as I know, this model XJHD-166S is the latest model and ships with the latest firmware as well. I remember reading that on cdfreaks.com. I know that there's a region-free patch firmware, but, I haven't tried it. Don't have any non-R1 DVDs yet...

Looks like the current firmware does the job of reading DVDs (which is all I want currently) just fine.

-MediocreFred.
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post #196 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 03:32 PM
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Yes, I flashed mine with the latest firmware out before installing it.

Viper
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post #197 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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I know I posted this sometime back...The original Fuss Audio Loader is Region-Free, so the Region check is initiated within the D1 processor. I don't think it will make a difference if you patch a new loader region-free unless you patch the D1 Firmware.

John

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post #198 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 05:26 PM
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Pioneer is $70 at BB, $40 many other places.. Think I'm gonna mail order. Thanks though.

BB
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post #199 of 746 Old 08-26-2003, 06:41 PM
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I'll throw one out i haven't seen here yet. I have read that the audio quality of the bravo DI is "mediocre" at best. question is with changing the loader has anyone noticed an improvement in sound quality ?? things that make you go hmmmm

-charles
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post #200 of 746 Old 08-27-2003, 06:41 AM
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FWIW, I've been using the digital (optical) audio output connected to a Denon 4802R and haven't noticed any problems with the audio. I've played THX, DTS5.1 and DD 5.1 sources (DVDs) and haven't observed any imperfections. Even with the original FUSS loader, I've never experienced audio problems - atleast not with the optical jack; haven't tried coax or analog and so, can't comment on those.

-MediocreFred.
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post #201 of 746 Old 08-27-2003, 12:08 PM
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Digital Coax connection to the receiver is first rate. Cannot tell a difference between the D1 and the Pioneer 47Ai in terms of digital audio out.

Manendra

"Some folks hate the whites who hate the blacks
who hate the Klan
Most of us hate anything that
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post #202 of 746 Old 08-27-2003, 03:54 PM
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good deal, thanks for the info.

-charles
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post #203 of 746 Old 08-27-2003, 08:20 PM
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I've finally put the first draft of my collected info online here. Keep in mind that it's still a work-in-progress.

I've tried to give proper credit whenever info came from a poster here. Hope you like it!
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post #204 of 746 Old 08-27-2003, 09:01 PM
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Nice job Deathwind, Thanks!
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post #205 of 746 Old 08-28-2003, 12:31 AM
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Deathwind,

An excellent job! Very well done. Comprehensive. Thanks for all the effort.

Manendra

"Some folks hate the whites who hate the blacks
who hate the Klan
Most of us hate anything that
we don't understand"

- Kris Kristofferson.
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post #206 of 746 Old 08-28-2003, 08:19 AM
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I also have a Bravo D1 and the only problem that I have found is when viewing JPEG family pictures on a disc that had the JPEG files located in subdirectories. JPEG viewing is not what I purchased the D1 for, and so that does not bother me. DVD playback, however, has been excellent and problem free using the DVI input to my Toshiba 65HDX82 RPTV.

Following this thread for a while, I wonder now if perhaps some of the D1 problems might be due to "noise" being induced e.g. onto long lengths of DVI cable or otherwise. Such electrical noise might corrupt the internal bit stream so as to cause errors at the processor input and overwhelm the error correction control.

It would also be interesting to see if the reported problems are duplicated when DVI is not used and not connected, i.e. the player is viewed through a component video or s video connection.

-Zyg-
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post #207 of 746 Old 08-28-2003, 11:54 AM - Thread Starter
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First of all thanks to Deathwind for the great summary.

Here is some additional info and tests that were conducted.

Part One.
Last weekend Brandon B. and I collectively tested three D1 units at one sitting. Our interest was to see if there were any differences in DVD STARTUP READING ERRORS with disks we did have some problems with in the past. None of these D1 units ever exhibited a habitual failure mode.
The three D1 units were all using their original Fuss Audio loader, my unit was updated to the latest firmware and the remainder units have the original firmware.
Between the two of us we had about eight DVD's to run through the units. Essentially we found that only one DVD created a problem for all the units at this sitting. This DVD (Lost in Space) had some deterioration of the reflective coating in some areas and a slight nick in the start area of the disk. I replaced the Loader in my unit with my current Toshiba 1712 Loader and essentially obtained the same results of one failure with Lost in Space.
Conclusion: All three D1 units reacted the same.

Part Two.
This past Tuesday I decided to try an additional test with my D1. This again was ONLY to test for DVD STARTUP READING ERRORS. I went through all my 27 DVD's (I know, not a large library, YET) and to find any that created a repeatable Startup problem with my Fuss Audio Loader (remember I have not had any consistent Fuss Audio failures) and then repeat the same tests with the failed DVD's of the original Loader, using all the Loaders I have collected.

I had 6 of 27 DVD's fail to some level: Saving Private Ryan (rarely fail); Casablanca,West Side Story,Day The Earth Stood Still (~20% failure); Ben-Hur,Doctor Zhivago(both 2 sided disks) (~90% failure) using the original Fuss Audio Loader.
I now used the same 6 DVD's to test the following Loaders: Toshiba SD-M1712(F/W 1.004), Sony DUU1621(F/W S3.3), Lite-On HD166S(F/W DS14). I did not use the Pioneer 120S as this Loader did exhibit a "Skip Chapter" issue @ layer changes previously.

Results: All the New Loaders essentially failed as the Fuss Audio.

Conclusion: "Start Failures" does not appear to be caused by the original Fuss Audio Loader, IF THE ORIGINAL LOADER IS FUNCTIONING CORRECTLY, for this type of failure mode.

Additional conclusion: To prove out that the 90% failure DVD's were not defective, I ran them thru my RP82 5 times with NO START FAILURE. This indicates to me that the Bravo D1 has additional issues with the processor and/or the operating Firmware!

I hope all this testing sheds some light for us, but especially for V,inc. and their supplier, to enable them to create a reliable mainstream quality product.

John

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post #208 of 746 Old 08-28-2003, 01:06 PM
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As an addendum to John's post, here is the operational history of the two units I brought. Once is a neighbor's, and has seen little use (about 6 movies), but has been completely problem free (he has no PJ yet, it subbed for mine while I waited for my exchange unit).

Mine is the exchange unit I received 7/3. It has had absolutely no failures other than the following:

LOTR FOTR EE did chapter skip at layer change, did not repeat skip when I backed past the LC.

Die Another Day (feh!) short audio dropout (5 sec) at one point in the film.

I have watched approximately 20+ movies in this time with no other problems. I do very little in the way of chapter jumping and winding, so this was mostly load disk, set audio option, start movie. My D1 is completely unpowered when not in use and in a wide open cool location at all times.

On the Lost in Space disk, my 2 decks did not lock up like John's did with the Fuss loader. They reacted with some dropped video, as did his using the toshiba.

So as his bottom line states - the loader is NOT the source of all the issues. But if your machine is particularly balky, a loader swap will prbably help somewhat I would think.

BB
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post #209 of 746 Old 08-28-2003, 01:07 PM
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Oh, and I have never had a single failure of any type with my Pioneer 301 disk changer, inarguably a more complicated device.

BB
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post #210 of 746 Old 08-28-2003, 03:57 PM
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John and Brandon,

What would be your definition of "startup reading errors"? Does it include inordinate loading times and subsequent failure to load?

The reason I ask is that with my D1 with the FUSS loader, I had problems with inordinate load times (2 to 5 MINUTES) (I define load time as when D1's display says "LOADING") and in most of these cases, the loading process would time out and the display would change to "NO DISC". Repeated cold-restarts (usingthe power switch on the D1) would result in marginal (1 in 10) success. Cleaning the discs, cleaning the lens, canned air, fervent praying - nothing worked.

With the LiteOn, the load times are between 1 and 2 seconds. And every single disc that I've thrown at it has played just fine. Very much like my 3 year old Sony DVD changer.

For the record, my D1 is on a shelf all by itself (it's a shelf with 5 racks and the D1 is on its own rack), with atleast 18" of clearance above and below it. The shelf is in an air-conditioned room with a fan blowing in its general direction from 3 feet away. The fan is to account for other components on the lower racks of the shelf. So, heat has never been an issue.

Also, last weekend, before mounting the LiteOn inside the D1 (it was outside for a couple of weeks while I was stress testing it), I tried the FUSS loader again just for kicks. Tried 4 rental DVDs that I was watching that weekend (every one of these had played/would play on the LiteOn) on it and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM failed to load with the FUSS loader.

Personally, I am convinced that the D1 - atleast my D1 - has a loader issue. I've never had audio stuttering issues or freezing issues and so, cannot comment on them.

All in all, as a ~ $260 (200 for the D1 + 20 for shipping and 40 for the LiteOn) DVI-DVD player, it has been a fantastic investment and I have no regrets. The picture quality more than makes up for the hours of "will it play this DVD, or won't it" anguish that I had early on.

Once again, mucho thanks to John (the OP) for experimenting with the loader and sharing his findings with us. But for that, I am pretty sure I'd have picked a scrap with VInc, returned the D1 and would have turned into a bitter, bitter individual.

-MediocreFred.
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