HDCP on DVDs that come with some BluRay? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 6 Old 08-09-2017, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
nickwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 235
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
HDCP on DVDs that come with some BluRay?

I have a standard def set up at my cottage thats uses component for the video connections. I have my old DVD collection up there and I also took all the new DVDs that are sometimes included with Blu-ray discs up there.

I tried to play one of these DVDs (True Grit) the other day on my Denon DVD player, its a later generation DVD player that had upscaling and HDMI, but I'm using the comp out. I couldn't get a picture. The DVD played, I got sound, but my processor , Emotiva UMC1 with HDMI, displayed an error message that "you need to use a HDMI connection to view this source".

Fist of all, do all these "blurry DVDs" have copy protection? Are they suppose to? I thought the copy protection was for HD only?

It seemed like the DVD player was playing the disc fine, it was my processor that was stopping it, is this how HDCP is suppose to work? Or was the UMC1 malfunctioning? If I used a processor that was pre-hdmi would it play? Again, Im talking standard def DVDs.

Thanks

Nick

Last edited by nickwin; 08-09-2017 at 06:59 AM.
nickwin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 6 Old 08-09-2017, 12:04 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mark12547's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Salem, Oregon, United States, Earth
Posts: 2,112
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickwin View Post
First of all, do all these "blurry DVDs" have copy protection?

Yes.


Even in VHS days, movies from the studios were copy protected as soon as a viable copy protection method was available, usually using Macrovision copy protection.



As far as I am aware, movie DVDs have always been copy protected. (Small scale DVD productions like Church or State Fair DVDs might or might not be copy protected, but DVDs from major studios almost always are copy protected.) Composite video and S-video output is likely Macrovision copy protected, which should be perfectly viewable on most TVs, but plays havoc with AGC circuitry in recording devices (and thus gyrations or bands of color distortion).



Quote:
Originally Posted by nickwin View Post
It seemed like the DVD player was playing the disc fine, it was my processor that was stopping it
Without seeing where the message was displaying, and even possibly if I could see it in person, it might not be possible to tell.


Can you connect the DVD player directly to the TV? That is the easiest way to tell if the Emotiva UMC1 is blocking the video or if the Denon DVD player is objecting, though I would put odds on the Emotiva UMC1. (I'll admit, though, my experience is limited to more traditional DVD players without upscaling capabilities connected to the TV and to Blu-ray players with HDMI output again connected directly to the TV, and most reports of incompatibilities that I have read about have been with boxes or "receivers" between the source and the TV.)

My very humble setup:
Spoiler!
Mark12547 is online now  
post #3 of 6 Old 08-09-2017, 12:16 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
nickwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 235
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
Yes.


Even in VHS days, movies from the studios were copy protected as soon as a viable copy protection method was available, usually using Macrovision copy protection.



As far as I am aware, movie DVDs have always been copy protected. (Small scale DVD productions like Church or State Fair DVDs might or might not be copy protected, but DVDs from major studios almost always are copy protected.) Composite video and S-video output is likely Macrovision copy protected, which should be perfectly viewable on most TVs, but plays havoc with AGC circuitry in recording devices (and thus gyrations or bands of color distortion).





Without seeing where the message was displaying, and even possibly if I could see it in person, it might not be possible to tell.


Can you connect the DVD player directly to the TV? That is the easiest way to tell if the Emotiva UMC1 is blocking the video or if the Denon DVD player is objecting, though I would put odds on the Emotiva UMC1. (I'll admit, though, my experience is limited to more traditional DVD players without upscaling capabilities connected to the TV and to Blu-ray players with HDMI output again connected directly to the TV, and most reports of incompatibilities that I have read about have been with boxes or "receivers" between the source and the TV.)
Interesting, thanks for the reply. I guess my confusion was about why it was being blocked. I was trying to play standard def dvd over component... Ive never had this issue with dvd in the past, so I wondered if these new DVDs that where included with some of my blurays had something new going on.

I know it was the UMC because the error message was clearly in the UMC font/menu style. The dvd player was playing the disc, the clock was counting and I was getting audio just no picture ( just UMC1error message).

I guess what Im really wondering is if this is how HDCP (if thats even the right term in this case) is suppose to work or if something was malfunctioning. Basically it was saying you could only play the disc over HDMI (True Grit DVD that came with the Blu-ray).
nickwin is offline  
 
post #4 of 6 Old 08-10-2017, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
nickwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 235
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Ok, so it turns out I have indeed been living under a rock for the last decade. My systems fall into two groups, current (HDMI all the way) and old (pre HDMI), so I don't have a lot of experience with stuff that falls in the middle. I do remember reading about the whole Analog Sunset thing, but I didn't put a whole lot of thought into it at the time because my main system was all HDMI.

After doing a little reading it seems that the behavior I saw may be normal. My understanding is that ICT can force downconversion even on players that allow HD over component output. The thing I can't find a definitive answer on is can ICT completely prevent output over component? Because that is what I saw with the True Grit DVD. Or maybe what happened was my processor (UMC1) was set to output HD and the copy protection wouldn't allow the DVD to be upconverted?

Based on what Im reading it seems like HDCP prevents HDMI inputs from outputting over component, and limits component outputs to 480-540 resolution. Does it also prevent AVRs/processors from upscaling protected content and outputting it over component? If so that might be what I experienced.

Can it also prevent SD content from outputting over component completly?

This all seems crazy... Seems to be more of a make consumers re-buy the movies they already have on DVD thing as opposed to a copy protection thing. And if you really can't play these DVDs over component why even include them with the blu-ray anyways? I thought the idea was to allow you to watch the movie on legacy devices (in SD) but if HDMI is required why wouldn't you just watch the blu-ray? Seems pointless to me.

Can anyone confirm if these movies (True Grit is the one I tried) will not play at all over component?
nickwin is offline  
post #5 of 6 Old 08-10-2017, 10:02 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Mark12547's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Salem, Oregon, United States, Earth
Posts: 2,112
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 767 Post(s)
Liked: 526
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickwin View Post
... And if you really can't play these DVDs over component why even include them with the blu-ray anyways? I thought the idea was to allow you to watch the movie on legacy devices (in SD) ...

You should be able to play the DVD in a standard DVD player connected to a TV; that's the purpose of the DVD in a Blu-ray/DVD combo pack.



You should also be able to play the DVD in an upscaling DVD player when the output is connected directly to the TV, though in the case of an SD TV one might have to go into the configuration screens of the DVD player and disable upscaling or lock output at 480i or 480p (or your country's equivalent of SD).



When an upscaling DVD player is connected via component to a receiver or other device-in-the-middle box and that is connected to an SD TV, there are too many implementation-specific variables for things to go wrong and I am not sure you will get a clear-cut answer without some testing (such as connecting the DVD player directly to the TV) or someone else has exactly the same model DVD player and exactly the same model "processor", right down to the firmware running in them, and have tried the same wiring and did their own testing with and without the receiver.

My very humble setup:
Spoiler!
Mark12547 is online now  
post #6 of 6 Old 08-11-2017, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
nickwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 235
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark12547 View Post
You should be able to play the DVD in a standard DVD player connected to a TV; that's the purpose of the DVD in a Blu-ray/DVD combo pack.



You should also be able to play the DVD in an upscaling DVD player when the output is connected directly to the TV, though in the case of an SD TV one might have to go into the configuration screens of the DVD player and disable upscaling or lock output at 480i or 480p (or your country's equivalent of SD).



When an upscaling DVD player is connected via component to a receiver or other device-in-the-middle box and that is connected to an SD TV, there are too many implementation-specific variables for things to go wrong and I am not sure you will get a clear-cut answer without some testing (such as connecting the DVD player directly to the TV) or someone else has exactly the same model DVD player and exactly the same model "processor", right down to the firmware running in them, and have tried the same wiring and did their own testing with and without the receiver.
Thanks for the info. Sounds like something was malfunctioning. The UMC1 is notorious for HDMI/handshake issues so I think its likely thats the culprit. Im replacing the UMC with a Anthem d2 so I guess I won't worry about it unless I have the same problem with the Anthem.
nickwin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DVD Players (Standard Def)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off