Kenwood Entre Technical Discussions - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1016 Old 06-11-2004, 07:19 AM
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Now that I've upgraded my hard drive, I'm trying to get my music on the Entre. I created a data CD on my Mac and the Entre recognized the files, but not the id tags. I'm using iTunes for my ripping. Any ideas on what is wrong?

Also, I tried ID3X (http://www.three-2-one.de/321apps/) to verify that the tags are present, which they are, but it doesn't display the image. When you guys import data to the Entre, does it pick up the cover from the id3 tag?

Thanks,
Jason


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post #452 of 1016 Old 06-11-2004, 08:27 AM
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I wasn't able to get iTunes to create a CD-RW that the Entre would recognize. The Entre tries to read it, but it doesn't show any track information, I believe it just says "NO CD".

Anyway, I find that if I want other devices (other than Apple) to recognize the ID3 information, I:

(a) select all the tracks
(b) Advanced
(c) Convert ID3 Tags,
(d) ID 3 v2.4

As for images, iTMS will use PIM or something like that, instead of JPEG images for coverart. You'll have to find the JPEG image and use that instead. I usually get all my coverart from Amazon.

hm
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post #453 of 1016 Old 06-11-2004, 08:42 AM
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Thanks hmatos,

The Entre did recognize the files just listed "Unknown Tack" instead of the titles from the id3 tags. I used toast to burn the CD since it appears that iTunes burns the CD differently. The cover art for the tracks I tried did come from Amazon. However I'm wondering if iTunes converted them something other then gif or jpg.

Does anyone know what version of the id3 tags the Entre supports? I'll try converting them to something earlier like 2.2 and see if the Enter then recognizes the titles.

One last thing, anyone know of good utility for OS X that will convert the images inside the id3 tag to some other format?
-Jason


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post #454 of 1016 Old 06-11-2004, 10:13 AM
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From the main thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...26#post2553126

For you guys looking at (now/past) all the MP3/tag/cover stuff it should would be nice if you found various post and a short description in the format of the quasi FAQ I'm working on.

Doesn't seem like anybody wants to help with this!

FAQ/link post

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post #455 of 1016 Old 06-11-2004, 11:06 AM
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Scott,

I too, was compiling a quasi faq for the Entre. You can get it at http://homepage.mac.com/jbryer/entre.txt I was mostly collection info that is useful for me, but am willing to formalize it some to be useful for everyone.

Jason

[edit: fixed the link, entre.txt should be all lower case]


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post #456 of 1016 Old 06-15-2004, 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by stickman
Scott, I too, was compiling a quasi faq for the Entre. You can get it at http://homepage.mac.com/jbryer/entre.txt I was mostly collection info that is useful for me, but am willing to formalize it some to be useful for everyone. Jason [edit: fixed the link, entre.txt should be all lower case]

Sorry for the delay. We need to figure something out. In some cases I like pointing to the original link then they can read the words unedited and surrounding post. Hmmm

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post #457 of 1016 Old 06-15-2004, 07:14 AM
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Scott,

I agree. That's why I included links to the original topic. However, I like the idea of having the conclusion of a discussion in one place. I converted the faq to html, I find a little easier to read. Here's a link: http://homepage.mac.com/jbryer/sovereignfaq.html

I finally got a chance last night to try importing music from CD again. This time I converted the id3 tags to version 2.2 in iTunes (on my Mac) before burning the mp3 to CD using Toast. Again, the Entre could play all the files but wouldn't display any of the info from the id3 tag.

For now I've copied a couple of CDs using Media Manager. Doing a batch of 2 or 3 CDs at a time seems to be working so far. But boy is it slow.

-Jason


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post #458 of 1016 Old 06-15-2004, 09:24 AM
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stickman,

Download Tag & Rename -- do a google and say you're feelin' lucky -- it should be the first link.

Use it to remove all ID3 v1 tags -- this might be your problem.

Also, check the contents of the tags for any special characters (like tilde, question marks, pound signs, you know anything out of the ordinary). I found that the Entre does not like these characters. The special characters shouldn't be in the file name either.

If that doesn't work. We can talk privately and you can upload one of your mp3's to me. I'll look at it and see what the problem might be.

hm
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post #459 of 1016 Old 06-15-2004, 07:09 PM
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hmatos,

Thanks for your suggestion. So if I understand you the Entre is getting confused with ID3 v1 tags present. I'll copy some files to my PC and try what you suggested and let you know how I make out. However, all my music is on a mac. Does anyone know of a similar product for the Mac?

Thanks,
Jason


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post #460 of 1016 Old 06-15-2004, 07:26 PM
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OK, I've downloaded ID3X for Os X (http://www.three-2-one.de/321apps/). According to it, there is no ID3v1 tag. My first pass had a v1 and v2 tag. My next experiment will be to remove the v2 tag and try only a v1 tag.

-Jason


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post #461 of 1016 Old 06-16-2004, 05:32 AM
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stickman,

I loaded approximately 100GB of music onto the Entre (off of my Macs), I initially had ID3 V1 tags in the files (because they were originally stored on my PC). I used a PC to run the Tag & Rename program against files on my Macs (via file sharing). I personally don't like having to use a PC, but I have an old P3 in a closet for those stubborn programs that won't run on the Mac or Virtual PC.

But anyway, did you check for special characters in the file name or ID3 tag? Okay, and this might be stupid, but since you're on a Mac, do you have file extentsions on the files that were transferred?

btw, my offer to help still stands -- let me know if you need a place to put one of the smaller mp3 files. I can look at it and see if I can get it to work.

more info that finally got this working --

Some background, which I'm not sure everyone is aware of --

Whenever the Entre reads a disc in the drawer, it will cache the information to 7.0.5/Database/Music/DataCDs or ../CDs -- if you have ftp access to the Entre you'll see it.

It thinks it's smarter than you are -- it determines whether it's got a match on the CD, by the total time on the disc and I believe the total number of tracks. Just like what CDDB uses. So in otherwords, if you recorded the same album to a disc. It won't re-read the title information. Easy way around this is just put more songs on the disc than you had before or take out a few.

Also, the Entre will not display coverart information for a "dataCD" until after you've recorded it to the harddrive.

Hopefully that all makes sense.

When I loaded his file into iTunes, it read it fine -- including coverart. I converted the tags to ID3 V2.4 off the Advanced menu. Just for the sake of sanity, I also quickly pulled the coverart from Amazon and I deleted what the art that was already there. I then burned it to CDRW using Toast 5.2.1.

It worked fine -- the Entre read the tag information and after I recorded it to my harddrive, it did show the coverart for the track.


hm
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post #462 of 1016 Old 06-18-2004, 10:32 AM
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hmatos,

there is a thermal resistor that controls the fan. you notice it on the board next to the fan. jumping the resistor causes zero resistance, thus the fan runs full speed and all the time.

I did this about 6 months ago. Its about time I take some compressed air to the fan to clean it out.

also, please please please forward info on how I can get my hands on your cd image. my email address is (j_sampo at hotmail.com) I'd love to upgrade my Entre to 120g. I tried editting a fireball image in the past, but gave up due to getting busy with work.


to everyone else,

sorry i've been out of the picture for too long. a few personal issues, my unbackedup hd dying on me, and me workin on an dvd control interface for winxp mce has kept me extremely busy these last few months. the dvd control to winxp mce is about 90% complete. i started a venture with a friend and we are going to release the app commercially. We intend to have it support as many of the dvd changers on the market currently. also, i am at a point where i can resume work on mediaedit. expect a beta within 2 weeks.

-Niteowl
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post #463 of 1016 Old 06-18-2004, 10:50 AM
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NiteOwl,

I've emailed you the instructions - let me know if you require further assistance.

hm
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post #464 of 1016 Old 06-18-2004, 09:26 PM
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I got sidetracked and will have to try it tomorrow. I need to go out and purchase a new drive first. The only drive I have laying around is an old maxtor 5400rpm 80gb. Any one keeping a list of drives that work?

I am going to look for the cheapest 5400rpm 120gb hd.

-NiteOwl
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post #465 of 1016 Old 06-19-2004, 08:16 AM
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Nightowl, Check PM!!

Danny
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post #466 of 1016 Old 06-19-2004, 12:24 PM
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Hey Hmatos... you are the MAN!
I bow before you... the upgrade worked like a charm.

But unfortunately I still have a problem that pre-existed. I was hoping that by upgrading and fresh installing all the system files, it would solve my problem. Basically here it is. About 2 weeks ago when I tried to play some of my mp3s, nothing would happen. i could select the album, get the list of mp3s but when i select one nothing would happen. After examining some files via ftp, i found that the xml files were ok and the mp3s where in the specific location where the xml files were pointing. I even checked the mp3s and they would play fine on my computer.

After all this, I said the heck with it... I will deal with it later. When I read about your upgrade. I was really excited because I thought that not only would I be able to upgrade, the clean install might fix my mp3 problem. Unfortunately it doesnt. Right now I only have those free mp3s that come with a clean system. They too do not play. I checked my radio stations. They too do not play. I ripped a cd to the hd and they play fine. But they are still uncompressed. If I turn off the entre, the blue lights do not flash (indicating the mp3 encoding process). Has this happened to anyone else?

I am ready to send my system to cerritos... cause I have pretty much given up trying to fix it myself. If you guys can think of anything, let me know. I will call the service center on Monday.

-NiteOwl
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post #467 of 1016 Old 06-19-2004, 06:14 PM
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NiteOwl,

Thanks for the compliment!

Why don't you just re-initialize the drive? In otherwords, use the other set of files, rather than an upgrade. I doubt Kenwood will return your unit with the music files on it -- they'll probably just reinstall the software and initialize the drive.

Your problem is very similar to what happens when you have a database that had it's corresponding MP3 files removed from the disk.

I saw the exact same thing when I initialized my partitions, I believe I finally just gave up and reinitialized the whole drive (fresh install).

You could try slocko's trick of removing some of the xml files. I can't remember which, but it's in here somewhere.

I stumbled upon something by accident -- if you delete say, the CD's or DataCD's directories (entire thing, including the slices) and then reboot the Entre -- it will rebuild the database, indexes, and maybe the xml files. It must somehome perform a full resync.

Anyway, you might want to give that a try.

hm
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post #468 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 05:19 AM
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To all those that have upgraded their Entre to 120GB --

Once you get your Entre loaded, go ahead and let it do a play all/repeat. I belive you just select the "All" category and then Menu, Play Mode, Repeat Group? I'd like you to let it run for at least 12 hours.

I'm having an issue where my Entre rebooted after about 12 hours of constant use. This isn't usually an issue, but I just want to be sure that it's my particular unit and not the upgrade. Although, it's not a big deal, I could probably live with this.

Here's what happened :

At about 6am I was creating some playlist and deleting some duplicate music. I played some of the music for about an hour and then I loaded an additional 4 albums.

At around 9am, I then started the Entre playing and it was doing so, until about 6pm.

I stopped it at about 6pm, but did not turn it off.

At around 8pm, I started watchng a movie and the Entre rebooted itself a few minutes into it.


This was happening about once a day while I was loading the music onto the Entre, it was running 24x7 and it was using a 7200 RPM Seagate. I've also noticed this on my Fireball, there was some sort of drive corruption in that particular case.

Funny thing is, of course all of this would start happening now. After I loaded the unit with all my music and after I put my Fireball away

hm
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post #469 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 05:36 AM
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I made some minor changes to the instructions (thanks JonDeutsch). I added some information on how to physically remove the drive (screw locations -- if I have time, I'll include pictures). I also put a note in there about how long you should expect each step to take.

hm
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post #470 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 05:41 AM
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Quote:



I'm having an issue where my Entre rebooted after about 12 hours of constant use. This isn't usually an issue, but I just want to be sure that it's my particular unit and not the upgrade. Although, it's not a big deal, I could probably live with this.



Yikes! Well, I started loading my music in around 2PM yesterday, and it's still burning tunes as we speak (8:30AM). So, I've exceeded the 12 hour limit. I probably should have been less aggressive, though, on my first batch of burns. I chose all my "A" discs (discs that start with "A"), and there was 1110 minutes of content to burn (in real-time).

During the burning process, I heard some nasty gaps between tracks that really concern me (ie., cutting off the first few seconds of tracks). I haven't had the heart to stop the burning, though, so I'm crossing my fingers that it's burning better than it's sounding. Will know more this afternoon when the "A"s are complete.

For the record, I'm using a Samsung SV1204H 120GB (5400RPM).

Jon

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post #471 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 05:52 AM
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That's interesting, are you using the changer to load the music? I've never done that. I honestly never thought it would work as advertised, so I never tried it. I already had all my music encoded in iTunes, so it was easier for me to create MP3 CD's and load it that way.

hm
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post #472 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 05:56 AM
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Yes, I'm using the "record" button, selecting the "rip music to HD" option (I love their phrasing), selecting discs from the megachanger by clicking the "repeat" button on each disc, and then hitting "record" again to begin the recording process.

I sure hope it *does* work as advertised! I've invested 18 hours or so in this process so far (or will have by this afternoon). And if this doesn't work, then it'll take for-friggin-ever to burn my music to the HD -- one disc at a time via the Entre itself. I don't have my music in any other format than CD at this time.

Jon

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post #473 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 06:14 AM
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Sounds like a nightmare -- You might be better off using something like iTunes (Mac/Windows) or Musicmatch (Windows). This way, you'll at least have a good backup, should the Entre decide it doesn't wish to cooperate. I've already backed up my Entre drive, but it was a real pain in the @*s. Caution, I have about 1000 albums and it took me a really long time to rip/encode them. Getting them on the computer is the easy part. Cleaning up all the poor information you get back from CDDB & FreeDB was the difficult part.

The nice thing about using a computer to rip/encode the music, you'll be able to easily edit all the tag information that comes back from CDDB. The genre information is usually not exactly correct. You can't really change a lot of the information that comes back from CDDB on the Entre. For example, if the genre comes backup as Rock and you want to change it to Alternative. You really can't. You can change the "Group" that's it's in, but you can't change the actual Genre (without using that horrible Media Manager application, that doesn't really work). You would have to select the Group you want to add the album to, select the Album, save it. Then you have to go back and edit the Group that the album was in to remove it from that group. This has is pros and cons, you can have an album in more than one Group, there aren't many applications that let you do this. Unfortunately, it creates a lot of extra work. The bigger your library gets, the longer it takes to do this type of updating.

It's a pitty that the Entre doesn't let you create dynamic playlists (like iTunes). For example, select 200 tracks, where the genre is Alternative and the Year is from 1999 to 2002. It would be so much easier to generate playlists with this type of feature. I'd even settle for it being able to import m3u files (exported playlists). NiteOwl, that was a hint

Anyway, best of luck with ripping/encoding process -- let us know how it goes.

hm
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post #474 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 06:45 AM
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But using a PC application at this point in time would still relegate me to inserting 300+ discs into the PC for individual ripping. I really would rather not get into that game.

Oh, I see what you're saying: if the bulk-load doesn't work, then instead of ripping 1-disc-at-a-time to the Entre, do it to the PC for a backup and more meta-tag control. Right?

And, yes, dynamic playlists would really be nice... as would alternate sort orders of the menus! I'm sure Entre II will have all of these features and more... for another $2k.

Jon

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post #475 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 06:45 AM
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It's also a shame that you can't search on disc title or track title. The data is IN THERE. Let me QUERY it!

Jon

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post #476 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 08:25 AM
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I hear ya! It's funny, the Fireball does let you sort the Guide by coverart, Artist, Album, and I think Song Title. But oddly enough, I never used the other options. It just seemed easier to use the way the Entre does it (Artist/Album).

The other cool thing the Fireball does, is allow you to pull up the allmusicguide.com (AMG, also another Escient property) information about an album. I believe it does it directly via the info key, similar to what the Entre does for DVD's. I believe the Entre let's you press the OG button and then, Now Playing.

A question, when you press the OpenGlobe button while a song is playing. Is your homepage screwed up -- do you show frames but no pictures (only on the homepage)?

hm
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post #477 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 09:02 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by hmatos


A question, when you press the OpenGlobe button while a song is playing. Is your homepage screwed up -- do you show frames but no pictures (only on the homepage)?

hm

Varies. Most of the time, the full homepage does appear with images intact. However, very often, the "now playing" feature doesn't bring up any results. I really like how the Fireball integrates this content into the experience via the "info" button!

Any way of just running the Fireball OS/software on my Entre?

Jon

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post #478 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 04:43 PM
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OK, my 1100 burn session is complete. Now I have some comments and questions.

Comments:

Overall, burning massive numbers of discs is pretty convenient with this approach. If you have a week vacation, you could select all 400 discs and burn away. However, if you're home, this takes a lot of time and keeps your system busy the entire time.

However, there are some drawbacks:

1. It seems that about 1/4 second is clipped from the beginning of each track. This is actually more annoying than it sounds. For all of those songs that kick in with a big pop, you really do miss that initial sound. It's unacceptable for someone who appreciates music.

2. The quality at 320kbs seems good, but I can't help but thinking it could/should be better at 320. I have no idea if this is just my brain telling me it isn't the same as the CD or if the encoder built-into the Entre is substandard. It's more than likely the former (ie., it's in my head), but the fact remains that you can't select your own encoder with this process. Don't get me wrong: it sounds virtually identical to the CD. In fact, it may be identical-sounding, but at times I scratch my head wondering if I'm hearing a bit of a compressed soundstage as a result.

It is reason #1 that I find this approach to be unacceptable, and this is a shame, because I kind of like the hands-off approach to burning.

I now need to ask the wise forum-roamers what the best approach of music mass-burning is. HM mentioned that encoding on the PC and then buring songs to MP3 discs and then copying them to the Entre is the best approach. HM, what MP3 encoder do you use on your PC? And, when you move the files to the Entre, are they being re-encoded, or just copied?

How is the MP3 metadata imported into the Entre via this process? What I mean by this is that there are a few "standard" MP3 genres, and some editors don't let you select other than the pre-set standards. How does Entre handle others/non-standard MP3 tag info? What software do you use on the PC to label the MP3s? Is there anything you need to do on the Entre once it's copied?

Thanks in advance.

Jon

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post #479 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 05:15 PM
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Jon,

I have used LAME at the old --r3mix setting, it creates large files, but it sounds pretty good. The MP3's will never sound as good as your CD. I especially notice it on Rock (aka., Melissa Etheridge/Lucky, usually heavy guitar) -- that's just one example. The Electronic, Classical, Latin, and Pop genres sound pretty good. I belive R&B also might suffer a little.

For the most part, it all sounds pretty good, just never as good as the CD via digital to your A/V receiver. The Entre does seem to have really good analog outs, so it's not too bad.

About 35% of my collection has been encoded using iTunes @ 320 -- it's just easier and this way I don't have to mess with a PC.

There are programs out there, like EAC (Exact Audio Copy) in conjunction with the LAME Encoder. This is what I used for the rest of my collection. Nice benefit, it's all FREE. Just google it.

The Entre will handle the meta-data just fine. It doesn't seem to complain. The trick, never use ID3V1 tags and ID3V2 tags, it'll screw it up. You will have to also remove any special characters in the tag information and/or file name (i.e., accent marks, question marks, etc -- you can put them back in after you've loaded them onto the Entre).

What's great about doing the encoding somewhere else, is that once you get bored with the Entre and the next great thing comes out, you'll be able to once again copy the music over to it.

btw, the Fireball is also much better with MP3's -- you can actually send digital out to your receiver. Unlike the Entre, which for some odd reason will only use Analog. hmmmm, I'm starting to convince myself to just continue to use the Fireball -- I just really need the rack space.

Also, the idea of using the Fireball's O/S on the Entre probably won't work. Even if it did, you'd lose DVD functionality. The Fireball doesn't support DVD, only CD.

Hope I've given you some good info.

hm
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post #480 of 1016 Old 06-20-2004, 06:09 PM
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I have been burning CDs into my PC using MusicMatch at 320k and transferring them over to the Entre on data CDs ever since I upgraded to a WD1200AB drive last month (Thanks, HM!). The process works fairly well, HM's hints about taking out the special characters in file and tag info are spot-on. I get about one out of every thirty or forty albums where the cover art doesn't come through to the Entre, but MusicMatch keeps a copy of the cover art in a subdirectory so it is pretty easy to grab the cover art with Media Manager and transfer it over.

I've done about 300 CDs so far (I had all my music burned at 128kbps but decided to reburn it at 320 for better quality and to fix all the tag information that didn't come through right when I burned the collection back in 1999). ~300 down, another 250 or so to go.

A year or so ago I tried burning a CD to the Entre via the changer - for some reason all the music was slightly sped up. Never tried it again, but I don't recall having any problems with parts of the song being cut off.

This process would be faster if the Entre/changer would read DVD-ROMs with MP3 content... Anyone ever try putting a DVD R/RW drive into the Entre?

Mike
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