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post #271 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 09:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Denon used ESS MPEG decoders in the 3800 and 9000 with no issues. But the latest batch are less then desirable, more an issue with ESS then Denon but I wish they would have caught the issues before release.

Saying that they use a cheap MPEG decoder is a universal flaw though. Look at Krell's $8K player with the same cheap LSI decoder as the budgey Sony's, or Meridian with their outdated Ziva configuration. Most the time it deals with contracts.

The best MPEG decoders we have seen was Panasonic's old offering, which was cheap, and the new Sigma designs, which is cheap. It isn't really a matter of cost, more of quality.

Sorry I haven't watched Amadeus on the player. Not really a movie I watch very often.

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post #272 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 11:36 AM
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I've asked this before, but never got an answer from anyone.

If the Matsushita MPEG decoder was so wonderful, why is it still not used? Why can't a manufacturer that wants the better decoder get them to provide a supply of these old decoders? In the case of Denon, they've even used OEM players from Panasonic!

Sigma is inexpensive as far as a decoder, but doesn't the deinterlacing take place on the same chip? And I recall the deinterlacing is not that great, right?

Too many issues proper playback is. And probably unnecessary issues.

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post #273 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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You don't have to use the de-interlacing on the Sigma chip. The ESS chip has de-interlacing as well, but Denon doesn't use it.

I don't know what the deal is with the Matsushita chips. Denon may not be able to just buy the chips, but rather have to OEM the whole transport. That might not be what they want to do.

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post #274 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
You don't have to use the de-interlacing on the Sigma chip. The ESS chip has de-interlacing as well, but Denon doesn't use it.
Wow. I guess this is good news. It means new DVD players from Vinc can possibly (note: possibly) bypass the deinterlacing in Sigma chipset and use some other solution. Same can be said for other manufacturers making Sigma based players.

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post #275 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 01:58 PM
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That is interesting. Unfortunately, in order to save money, most manufacturers would rather it be done on one chip. If the execution was stellar, it would be the way to go. Case in point, it's not.

If anyone is familiar with the AVM processor in the Fujitsu plasmas, you know what stellar means. In that case, one chip is better than two (or more).

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post #276 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rhoniel Kase
Wow. I guess this is good news. It means new DVD players from Vinc can possibly (note: possibly) bypass the deinterlacing in Sigma chipset and use some other solution. Same can be said for other manufacturers making Sigma based players.

Rhoniel
Bravo has already expressed interest in this and I wouldn't be surprised to see something along these lines in the D3 or later. It won't happen in the D2 though. This is exactly what Samsung did with the 931, that is why the Faroudja chipset is only used for the DVI output.

All in one chip solutions are popular for lower priced players, that is why you see so many $100 progressive players on the market right now. That is what Panasonic did with its line, they created a chip that would do everything all in one to save some dough. Remember that videophiles that TRULY CARE about de-interlacing and all the other goodies represent less then 1% of the total market that is buying these things.

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post #277 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 02:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay I have all but completely remedied the bug on my player. This is through trial and error using the 20 and 30 IRE window patterns on AVIA, which exhibit the problem consistently, and the worse in my opinion. You will have to go a bit back and forth with the settings in your player and the settings on your monitor though.

Starting with my display completely set correctly using DVE and the player's settings completely in the neutral positions but black level set at 0 IRE. I adjusted the following settings in the DVD player under the picture adjustments.

Black Level : -2
White Level : +1
3DNR: +5

I went back and forth trying lots of different settings. Be aware that your contrast and brightness settings on your monitor will have an affect too. But I was able to maintain the proper contrast and brightness levels on my monitor and use these settings. This eliminated 99% of the issue on the 20 IRE pattern and 100% on the 30 IRE. I will watch some DVDs over the next week and see what it does for background noise. I did evaluate some of my reference DVDs to see if there was any adverse effects to the image with the 3DNR setting that high, but I couldn't find anything. The image was superb with "The Fifth Element Superbit Edition" with fantastic depth and detail.

These settings may not work completely based on whatever monitor you have and its settings. If you adjust these one and a time using those window patterns you can dial in the picture. I would go one at a time and take each one to the level needed to eliminate as much as each one could. Adding them on top of each other tweaked it in even farther until I was able to almost completely eliminate it. If any of you try this, please let me know how it goes. I think most of these adjustment on the player are done directly in the MPEG decoder and are not parameters adjusted in the Faroudja chipset.

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post #278 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 03:26 PM
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Thanks Kris. I didn't adjust the white level or the 3DNR on my set-up.

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post #279 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 04:10 PM
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Are you using 0 IRE for black or 7.5 IRE? Have people noticed this problem more with one or the other?

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post #280 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
Bravo has already expressed interest in this and I wouldn't be surprised to see something along these lines in the D3 or later.
Hi Kris,
If you happened to visit Vinc's both at CES, can you also please tell them to put a better power supply unit in their players. It probably won't cost them more than $5 as compared to what they are spending on the current D1's PSU unit. According to Alan Maher, Bravo's flaky PSU is responsible for all lock up and disc skipping problems. Thanks.

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post #281 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Jim Noyd, who is the press rep for Bravo, frequents these boards and posts here all the time. I would imagine asking him about this will have more result then me telling them. I am not in a position to really tell any company anything. Most respect the results of our tests at Secrets, including V inc., but I don't like the idea of telling them how to do their business.

Joe, I am using the 0 IRE setting. I haven't tried anything with the 7.5 IRE.

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post #282 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
Jim Noyd, who is the press rep for Bravo, frequents these boards and posts here all the time. I would imagine asking him about this will have more result then me telling them.
I just told him:).
He said they are putting new PSUs :D here
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post #283 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 08:43 PM
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I just bought two 2003 Decca DVDAs today and my 5900 refuses to play them. One is by Renee Fleming and the other is Cecilia Bartoli's "The Vivaldi Album". The display showed "Play" but no video or audio were transmitted. This is the first time that my 5900 refuses to play a disc at all but as I reported earlier I do have problems playing other discs (DVD: the DTS and DD demonstration tracks on disc 2 of the Ultimate DVD Platinum - stuttering, SACD: Jacintha is Her Name - unable to play a number of tracks and DVDA: Fairport Convention's Close to the Wind - occasional skips), a total of 5 discs so far. Again my 45a has no problems playing all these discs. Some how I just don't think my 5900 is particularly worse than other 5900s and I'll not be surprised there'll be more problem discs down the road. With this note I'll sign off from this thread but will monitor it for others to debate the merits and defects on 5900's DESIGN.

Oh, for those members who reported that they have no problems with their machines, it'll be helpful to potential and current owners to confirm that they can indeed play some of the problem discs mentioned in this thread.
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post #284 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 09:10 PM
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It is stated on every dvd that it may not work in all players. So how can you call it a defect or design flaw? It is the format not the player. Every dvd has this on it.
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post #285 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 10:10 PM
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The only reason I asked is because I seem to remember some owners with DLP sets saying that they were using the 7.5 IRE setting (or maybe it was the other way around and they were using the 0 IRE setting?).

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post #286 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 10:32 PM - Thread Starter
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I was indeed seeing the problem with the window patterns at 0 IRE, so I know that isn't masking it. If they prefer to use the 7.5 setting and they still see the problem with the window boxes, then follow the same steps with the exception of the 0 IRE setting and see what results you get.

leegeousa, I have the Ultimate DVD Platinum. I will try the DD and DTS demonstrations and report back to on it.

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post #287 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 10:35 PM
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I checked two DVDs (Air Force One: Superbit and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen) and two DVD-As (both from AIX Records).

I couldn't find any information regarding playability. Am I not looking in the right place?

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post #288 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Murphy Jr
Kris
Are you using 0 IRE for black or 7.5 IRE? Have people noticed this problem more with one or the other?
Is there a correct setting? I thought that correct video black level was 7.5 , and that ideally you want your players black level set a 7.5 and your displays input to assume 7.5 is black.

I know some players, like the Samsung are fixed at 0 IRE.

So I guess what I am asking is that, if you interchange these settings don't you run the risk of messing up your black level?
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post #289 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 10:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Leegeousa

I checked all of the sound effect tests in both the DTS and Dolby Digital demonstrations on the Ultimate DVD Platinum. I also checked the music demonstrations on the DTS demo and the soundtrack demos for DD. I had no skips at all. I am glad I checked those though! I am in the Navy full time, a submariner, and that feature on the USS Forrestal is really good! I had to watch it once in one of my firefighting courses, but I am glad to know I have it on DVD. Sorry I couldn't recreate your issues. I don't have the other discs you mention so there is no way for me to test them.

Again the only disc I have had an issue with is a Chicago DVD-A that played fine on my previous players but won't on this one. But I had John Kotches test his with his copy of the DVD-A and it worked fine. I guess sometimes players are touchy with certain discs. I ran into this all the time with a Bravo I was borrowing for awhile. It wouldn't play a bunch of stuff that my other players wouldn't. If I was you, I would trade out for another one with your dealer, I bet that would resolve most if not all of your issues.

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post #290 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by gkfisher
Is there a correct setting? I thought that correct video black level was 7.5 , and that ideally you want your players black level set a 7.5 and your displays input to assume 7.5 is black.

I know some players, like the Samsung are fixed at 0 IRE.

So I guess what I am asking is that, if you interchange these settings don't you run the risk of messing up your black level?
That's EXACTLY what I was gonna ask. I'm very confoosed now :(. I thought that if it's set for 0 IRE, below black won't be displayed. Is the semi- rumored and much disputed "contrast bug" related to the macroblocking and fixed by screwing up black levels?

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post #291 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 10:54 PM - Thread Starter
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gkfisher,

I always use the 0 IRE function, that way your player isn't clipping off below black information, of which there is quite a bit of on most DVDs. It is also easier to set your brightness correctly using 0 IRE.

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post #292 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
gkfisher,

I always use the 0 IRE function, that way your player isn't clipping off below black information, of which there is quite a bit of on most DVDs. It is also easier to set your brightness correctly using 0 IRE.
I have done some research here on the forum and tried to find a good explanation of all this. Can you explain or refer me to a good link that explains how 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE are related to 1-255, etc for video and PC standards. I have read much, but am not sure what EXACTLY the 0, 7.5, 1-255 relate to in regards to EACH OTHER, if that makes sense. Is it just a matter of calling the same thing by 2 different terms? 0 IRE bing 1-255 and 7.5 IRE being 16-235 or whatever, or vice versa?

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post #293 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 11:06 PM
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The Q&D explanation is this:
If your display has individual memory settings for each input, use 0 IRE. If your display doesn't have different memory settings for each input, use 7.5 IRE.

The DVD format uses 0 IRE for black. Cable, regular broadcast television, VCRs and laserdisc players use 7.5 IRE for black. Obviously you can see the potential problem if your display doesn't have individual memory settings for each input.

Therefore, if it doesn't, use 7.5 IRE if your DVD player allows this setting or else all of the other sources I listed will be wrong and will look very dark.

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post #294 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 11:16 PM
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"It is stated on every dvd that it may not work in all players. So how can you call it a defect or design flaw? It is the format not the player. Every dvd has this on it." Kevinca
____________________________________________

Maybe this is why:

"Again my 45a has no problems playing all these discs." Legeousa
__________________________________________________

"This decoder is a low end decoder and I'm surprised they (Denon) went with it" Kris Deering

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Kevinca, I think that's a poor argument. Let's say we read this entire thread, and find all the discs that people have had trouble with and played them all succesfully, without a hitch, on five different make DVD players and then find they don't play properly on the sixth player (5900). Exactly what would you call it? You always sound like a spin doctor for Denon, why?
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post #295 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 11:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Martin Butler
Kevinca, I think that's a poor argument. Let's say we read this entire thread, and find all the discs that people have had trouble with and played them all succesfully, without a hitch, on five different make DVD players and then find they don't play properly on the sixth player (5900). Exactly what would you call it? You always sound like a spin doctor for Denon, why?
Martin

That is exactly what I am trying to do, without buying EVERY DVD mentioned here. I have most of them already thankfully. The only discs mentioned in this thread that I haven't been able to check the SA-CD and DVD-A mentioned by leegeousa. Everything else I have been able to look at with no problems. The only thing I have been able to confirm is the "artifacts" associated with the window patterns people are seeing. I have posted how to almost completely eliminate this problem.

If someone is having more problems with more then about 2 discs, I would take the player back and exchange it for a new one. I have had a lot of different players that have had issues with a disc only to find that another doesn't with the same disc, but if it is happening with quite a few (like leegeousa) then it is most likely a defective unit.

What we have to remember is that in this entire thread we have a consortium of probably less then 10 owners with issues, and most are unrelated to each other. A bug is something that is repeatable over the entire product line, like the window pattern issue. If the subtitle thing was a bug, I would be able to repeat it on my player, and I have had three already at my disposal and haven't been able to repeat it on any of them.

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post #296 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 11:18 PM
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This may not answer all of the questions, but...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...82#post2987782

sspears:
"IRE is in the analog world. DVDs are in the digital world. When converted back to analog, it is the DVD player that decides if digital 16 == IRE 0 or IRE 7.5.

There is NO IRE with the DVI out. DVI should have nominal black at 16 and nominal white at 235. The Samsung clips at 16 and 235 and then expands what is left (about 7.5 bits) to 0 and 256. So now black is at digital 0, which is wrong.

This is how Windows use to work for video. With MCE 2004, we fixed it so nominal black is now at 16. If you are using the latest drivers from nVidia or ATI with the VMR, then this is how it behaves.
".

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post #297 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 11:29 PM
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And still more...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...63#post3131463

some nut case:
"Actually, it's the PC standard that does the "chopping". The video standard allows for signals below black and above white. The PC standard just encodes from black to white. Don't think "numbers", think signal.

Although you see 16 - 235 listed for the video standard, both it and the PC standard go from 1 - 255. The 16 - 235 corresponds to where black and white reside, not the range of the signal.
".

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post #298 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 11:36 PM
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Kris, you make a lot of sense. It's inherent in a forum like this to focus on problems and I know it's difficult to accurately portray the bigger picture (pun slightly intended). By the way, being in the Navy full time, how do you find the time for all this? I'm impressed and wish you well.
If you set up the 5900 as you suggested to reduce the macroblocking artifacts does that compromise other aspects of PQ?

By setting the 5900 as you suggest, does that mean that a calibration of the projector or TV must be done after setting up the 5900 or before?
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post #299 of 1111 Old 01-03-2004, 11:54 PM
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That is some of the EXACT reading I was referring to. I suppose I'll have to do some more research and write it all out as if I were in school all over again. My head hurts from it all.

I still don't see how changing the IRE setting from 0 to 7.5 or the reverse wouldn't affect pluge. Is it somehow compensated for/adjusted in the display calibration? This is why I monitor but rarely post in this thread- much of what's posted is beyond my knowledge.

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post #300 of 1111 Old 01-04-2004, 12:01 AM
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Wait- forget it- I think I just got it. Correct me if I'm wrong please, and I'm sorry to highjack this thread.

So you're saying that the Denon, for example, has 0 IRE representing, say, 16? Whereas the 931 or any non-pluge passing player has 0 IRE represented as 0? If this is what all this means, than what would 7.5 IRE be on the Denon?

EDIT: Or actually, digital 16 representing 0 IRE, etc? PS- And I THOUGHT it was some nut case posting all that craziness ;).

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