Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1111 Old 01-07-2004, 07:11 PM
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Got them crossed on both hands! Thanks for keeping us in the loop Kris.
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post #362 of 1111 Old 01-08-2004, 02:05 AM
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Kris, I just got the European version of the 5900 and the macroblocking is there. It's quite a serious issue, not just a videophile's obsession with perfection. It's quite in your face. I was watching Kubrick's 2001 through DVI on my Marantz S3 projector and the macroblocking on the first scenes of the movie, on the halo around the planets, is UNWATCHABLE. And this is after Avia disc calibration. I started tweaking the player and I got more or less to your same conclusions, but in order to get rid of the bug (or to hide it, at least) I had to set black level down to -4. The problem is: you lose quite a lot of shadow detail with this setting. The player is set to 0 IRE by the way. 7.5 IRE made things even worse.
I didn't play with the 3DNR settings mainly because I didn't even know what it was but I'll try this evening.
I really hope the macroblocking problem can be fixed. and that the fix will be easily available for the A11, the european version too.
Lowering black level is an acceptable but hopefully temporary solution for now.
By the way, "2001" (I have the Pal version) is an excellent test disc for macroblocking. the first planets scenes of the movie are quite unforgiving.

Luca


Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
Okay I have all but completely remedied the bug on my player. This is through trial and error using the 20 and 30 IRE window patterns on AVIA, which exhibit the problem consistently, and the worse in my opinion. You will have to go a bit back and forth with the settings in your player and the settings on your monitor though.

Starting with my display completely set correctly using DVE and the player's settings completely in the neutral positions but black level set at 0 IRE. I adjusted the following settings in the DVD player under the picture adjustments.

Black Level : -2
White Level : +1
3DNR: +5

I went back and forth trying lots of different settings. Be aware that your contrast and brightness settings on your monitor will have an affect too. But I was able to maintain the proper contrast and brightness levels on my monitor and use these settings. This eliminated 99% of the issue on the 20 IRE pattern and 100% on the 30 IRE. I will watch some DVDs over the next week and see what it does for background noise. I did evaluate some of my reference DVDs to see if there was any adverse effects to the image with the 3DNR setting that high, but I couldn't find anything. The image was superb with "The Fifth Element Superbit Edition" with fantastic depth and detail.

These settings may not work completely based on whatever monitor you have and its settings. If you adjust these one and a time using those window patterns you can dial in the picture. I would go one at a time and take each one to the level needed to eliminate as much as each one could. Adding them on top of each other tweaked it in even farther until I was able to almost completely eliminate it. If any of you try this, please let me know how it goes. I think most of these adjustment on the player are done directly in the MPEG decoder and are not parameters adjusted in the Faroudja chipset.

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post #363 of 1111 Old 01-08-2004, 03:03 AM
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Its quite interesting but i think the macroblocking issue is a lot worse with pal software. i have mostly ntsc software but the few pal discs i have feature more evident macroblocking. i know pal disc are known for there poor decoding which is probaly the problem but it can be as lostchild said unwatchable or as i think plain awful.


a fix PLEASE !!!

Dustin
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post #364 of 1111 Old 01-08-2004, 07:22 AM
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Lostchild, I'm sorry to hear that the macroblocking is so serious in your system. Are you thinking of returning your A11?
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post #365 of 1111 Old 01-08-2004, 07:53 AM
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Martin: no, at least not for now. I only watched four or five movied with it, and the only time I really noticed the macroblocking was with the 2001 movie. I know it's not the disc because I watched that movie twice before, with the A1 (Denon 9000) and the picture was great. I'll see if it starts to get annoying with other dvds. My impression is that you see it only in a limited number of scenes, like long shots with light halos on dark backgrounds (2001 is full of those scenes). And the lower black level tweak made it acceptable. the price to pay for that is - unfortunately - a loss of shadow detail.
I'll just wait and see what happens with other dvds and if denon finds a fix.
I also want to get a region 1 version of 2001 to see if PAL really makes it worse. I live in Europe but 90% of my dvds are region 1.

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post #366 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 07:07 AM
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lostchild, good luck, keep us posted.
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post #367 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 07:56 AM
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Kris

i take it that i-link fix will enable use with pioneer i-link amps?

Dustin
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post #368 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dpippel
To those people who are seeing the macroblocking I'd say that the MPEG decoder as implemented is "broke" Tom. From a CUSTOMER'S perspective, they've just spent $1.5-$2K on a top-of-the-line player with a reproducable video problem that so far cannot be corrected. And let's be realistic about this player - the videophile/audiophile customer that it's being marketed to WILL obsess over tiny details like this one. We're not talking about a $200 mass-market item here. Products like the 5900 should indeed be subjected to a higher level of engineering, design review, testing, and quality control than the players crowding Wal-mart aisles during the holidays.

No it's not a heart monitor, but it's a damned expensive piece of of home theater gear and Denon's current flagship DVD product. I don't think telling people to just accept something that should have been identified and corrected early in this machine's development process is fair just because you don't consider it a big deal. In my opinion it's a legitimate gripe.
You are correct sir, and anyone who defends this players macro blocking, transport grinding /lockup or any other obvious defect to those of us that have had problems comes off looking like...well you know;)
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post #369 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 12:47 PM
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and again: it's not a tiny detail. i bought the marantz 8300 dvd player when it came out and I thought the chroma bug of that player was a tiny detail. even the dvi issue with the A11/5900 is a tiny detail. but the macroblocking is actually forcing me to watch movies with a not properly calibrated player, with darker images and loss of shadow detail in order to mask the bug.
i wouldn't start to attack denon for this though: we should admit that they're always listening, trying to fix problems and to please even the most demanding videophile.
it's just that sometimes **** happens.
I'm sure they will come up with a solution. my player is brand new, still under warranty. I'm confident that when the fix will be found we'll get it.
denon jeff? are you there? :)

Luca

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post #370 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 01:27 PM
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I think Denon Jeff is at the CES Show right now. I just watched Underworld last night on my 5900 and even though the movie sucked the transfer was rock solid. Their was no macroblocking and this movie is very dark. I have had the 5900 since October and in that time I have only seen this problem 2 times. My display is a Toshiba 57hx81 (CRT Based) which has been ISF'd and the 5900 has not been tweaked and is run totally flat.

Maybe we should start a thread listing the movie that you saw with the type of display and if it has been calibrated. Then indicate if you saw macroblocking and at what point. I believe that with this information other people can check to see if they see the same thing and report back. I bet the problem lies not so much with the 5900 but instead with the 5900 plus X (x being the calibrated display device that is being used). Anyway, that is my 2 cents. What do you guy's think?
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post #371 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 03:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Earz
You are correct sir, and anyone who defends this players macro blocking, transport grinding /lockup or any other obvious defect to those of us that have had problems comes off looking like...well you know;)
I still don't understand some of the people on this thread. Guess I come off like ..... then because I still think most of you are either:

a. setting up your display wrong

b. have a defective unit

c. don't know how to set up the player right

d. all of the above

I don't have any idea what you are referring to with this grinding/lockup problem but I have had 3 players already and none have done anything that would fit that description. And after reading LOTS of threads on this player you seem to be the only person with this problem, so I don't think Denon needs to stop production and send out a massive recall on it.

The artifacts that are being referred to as "macroblocking" appear to be rounding errors in the MPEG decoder. While I admit freely that I see them in the AVIA test patterns in the lower IREs and room light references, I have yet to see ANYTHING in the more then 100 DVDs I have played with the player. So here I look at a bunch of people saying that this player was too bad to live with yet I still don't have referrences to films that produce this "macroblocking". The only title I have seen is Unbreakable, which was compression issues that I could reproduce on another player.

The MPEG decoder does have issues, but it may not be broken. If there is no set tolerance for rounding errors, then ESS may not be liable. And again I stress that I find it seriously hard to believe that Denon would have been able to catch this at ALL before selling these units.

For all of you who think this player is a piece of junk, fine. I hope your happy with whatever other perfect player you find out there. I personally have been enjoying phenominal video and audio on this unit for the last few months and plan to continue to do so for quite sometime. I really hope that people can read through this post and sift through the drama that some are making, because this is a great player that I think most would be overjoyed with.

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post #372 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 04:02 PM
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Kris you once again state what 99.9999999% of the people who own it think of this player. The only one i can say i seen it on was treasure planet but i do not hink its macroblocking due to i seen it on the laptop and pc also. So i am not sure that was actually that. You may want to check it out,
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post #373 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
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The issues with Treasure Planet are compression problems, and they are evident with all players. Most animation studios tend to put too much on a single disc since they want so many extras for the kiddies. This was apparent with Monster's Inc and Finding Nemo as well since they included full screen and widescreen presentations on the same disc.

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post #374 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 04:33 PM
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Kris I would like to thank you for all of your research! I got my 5900 this week and it is a thing of "beauty"! Hooked up through either component or dvi it is just assume!!!
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post #375 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 06:33 PM
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i've only had my DVD-A11 (aka 5900) for a few days now and even though i was fully aware of this macroblocking problem decided it was worth the purchase, seeing as i felt there's chance of this problem being resolved. And it seems only to seriously effect a small number of titles (what people should really be complaining moreso about is the lack of Q.A. from a DVD authoring standpoint and i'm sure this number of identified problems would be even lower than currently reported)

Anyway, the only other choice to get DVI out of a player in Australia at this stage is the Marantz DV8400, and seeing as they have been a slack bunch of ****** and still release a brand new player WITH the Chroma Bug error, i didn't want any part of it.

So far the picture and sound quality of the A11 are quite remarkable for the price of this player.

the only real complaints/issues i have with this player at the moment are :

- the god aweful looking menu system (i hope the money they saved on the menus went into better audio and video stages :)

- rather slow menu changes (i had heard it was slow, but damn it's VERY slow... and i'm comparing to a 5 year old DVD player with average menu changes....surely Denon can remedy this problem, as i often make a selection, wait a moment, and then wonder if it worked!....... i'm wondering what's going on inside the box once i push the button....and it takes so long to respond to my commands)

- DVI doesn't stay permanently active on my player, but i'll be chasing up the firmware fix for that one.

- one of the worse manuals i've encountered.... it's as if Denon don't want to you use any of the features included as they give the most non-descript definition/processes of each and every feature available. (luckily i like to fiddle with my new toys, so will discover the how/what/when/where and why by myself, as well as what i read in forums like this one)

my old remote control also included a light activation button on the side to illuminate the main buttons, and i really really miss it (along with the proper jog/shuttle dial which is ever so handy for getting back and forth within a scene)

BUT after all that's said, with the sight and sound that comes out of this player, i certainly won't be going back to my old player in a hurry :)

Matt.G

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post #376 of 1111 Old 01-09-2004, 11:22 PM
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A little ray of sunshine.

I was seeing subtitle pop ups and colour tiling. As well, my processor would lock up and need to be shutdown and restarted to clear the problem. Another issue was with DSOTM and the muting that was happening between tracks.

Well, all of these issues have been fixed by a simple firmware update from the kind folks at Denon Canada. The firmware was sent in a package that had five discs and was done in two phases. The latest firmware contains the following updates: ESS - 6334-1, MAKE DAY - 1015, DRV - 030825, SYSTEM - 6542-1. DSP1 - 6332 and DSP2 - 6333. My advice would be to make sure the latest firmware is loaded as apparently my player was shipped to the dealer without the newest firmware even though the DVI menus were available. I was also informed that even though the DVI options were available that this was not the correct way to verify if the DVI update had been applied. The only way to tell for sure is the firmware display.

One down side to the upgrade though is now I too am seeing the slower menu access that others have criticized. All in all though I'm a happy camper.
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post #377 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 02:06 AM
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How do i check which firmware version im using?

Dustin
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post #378 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 04:29 AM
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Mgoldsmith,
Quote:
My advice would be to make sure the latest firmware is loaded as apparently my player was shipped to the dealer without the newest firmware even though the DVI menus were available. I was also informed that even though the DVI options were available that this was not the correct way to verify if the DVI update had been applied. The only way to tell for sure is the firmware display.
I would also like to know how to check the firmware version on the 5900/A11 :)

Thanks

Regards,
Pedro
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post #379 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 05:15 AM
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Kris Deering wrote:

"a. setting up your display wrong"

A straw man argument thrown in every time it seems.

"b. have a defective unit"

In that case the Denon quality control must suck becaus there appear to be a lot of people with defectiv units out there.

The player is made by a plant in China (such a high end unit should really be made in Japan IMO and not at the same assembly line which produces a sub 100 USD player the next day...)

"c. don't know how to set up the player right"


Maybe because both the manual and the players set up menu is terrible.


Come on Kris and admit that neither the badly designed remote, unbelivable slooooooow response time or the awfully designed set-up/user menus belongs in a product in the 2000 USD range.... These points alone is enough to fail the player.

Using a A11/5900 is like driving a high performance car with ocassional glitches in an engine (perhaps a weak engine which really should not have been used in such an expensive car) and without power steering and a heater/air condition unit. It would most likely be impossible to sell.

Then there is the issue of a non-working IEEE1394 output and aspect ratio problems with the DVI output. Both glitches who should not been allowed to exist in a 2000 USD player.

Quite frankly; I can't see why you take so lightly on these issues.

It puzzles my mind to see that Denon actually choses to manufacture a product with such weaknesses. Their other cheaper players are better performers than their top model in this regards...

"For all of you who think this player is a piece of junk, fine. I hope your happy with whatever other perfect player you find out there. I personally have been enjoying phenominal video and audio on this unit for the last few months and plan to continue to do so for quite sometime."

Unlike you I don't get factory deals on Denon products and unfortunately I can't afford to swap out a 2000 USD player every 6 months.

I'm sure you will swap out the 5900 the second a new unit comes out without the MPEG-2 rounding errors.


Espen Braathen
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post #380 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 06:26 AM
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AV Avatar,

Have you noticed any other fixes with the firmware upgrade you just installed (such as menu navigation speed, DVI handshaking sequence, macroblocking, i-link with other brands of processors) ?

Paul.
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post #381 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 06:53 AM
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ESP1 first what kris says is right. This player may have a few minor problems but so do evey other player on the market. There have been very few people that like kris ask them to do name the dvds that cause it. I have not seen it either and i have a mits46809. just because a few people have a problem everyone wants to call it apiece of junk. That is far from true the only thing i wish they did was use silicon chip. but the pic is awesome with the faroudja, and the sound is in a league by itself. so like kris says you dont like it fine take it back.the menus wher a little slower but come on does that make the world end.
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post #382 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 08:01 AM
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Great post Kris. Had I not already owned the 5900 and read this thread I don't think I'd have purchased it. That is a serious responsibility on us as posters to forum that people look to for advice. I'm in manufacturing and can assure you that no product in this universe that is mass produced is perfect every time. In fact if we can keep defects below 1% of production we consider it very successful.

The 5900 is a very good player for the price, better than a couple I tried that were much more expensive. I'm glad there is a voice of reason out there.

Ken
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post #383 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 08:01 AM
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Great post Kris. Had I not already owned the 5900 and read this thread I don't think I'd have purchased it. That is a serious responsibility on us as posters to forum that people look to for advice. I'm in manufacturing and can assure you that no product in this universe that is mass produced is perfect every time. In fact if we can keep defects below 1% of production we consider it very successful.

The 5900 is a very good player for the price, better than a couple I tried that were much more expensive. I'm glad there is a voice of reason out there.

Ken
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post #384 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
I still don't understand some of the people on this thread. Guess I come off like ..... then because I still think most of you are either:

a. setting up your display wrong

b. have a defective unit

c. don't know how to set up the player right

d. all of the above

I don't have any idea what you are referring to with this grinding/lockup problem but I have had 3 players already and none have done anything that would fit that description. And after reading LOTS of threads on this player you seem to be the only person with this problem, so I don't think Denon needs to stop production and send out a massive recall on it.

The artifacts that are being referred to as "macroblocking" appear to be rounding errors in the MPEG decoder. While I admit freely that I see them in the AVIA test patterns in the lower IREs and room light references, I have yet to see ANYTHING in the more then 100 DVDs I have played with the player. So here I look at a bunch of people saying that this player was too bad to live with yet I still don't have referrences to films that produce this "macroblocking". The only title I have seen is Unbreakable, which was compression issues that I could reproduce on another player.

The MPEG decoder does have issues, but it may not be broken. If there is no set tolerance for rounding errors, then ESS may not be liable. And again I stress that I find it seriously hard to believe that Denon would have been able to catch this at ALL before selling these units.

For all of you who think this player is a piece of junk, fine. I hope your happy with whatever other perfect player you find out there. I personally have been enjoying phenominal video and audio on this unit for the last few months and plan to continue to do so for quite sometime. I really hope that people can read through this post and sift through the drama that some are making, because this is a great player that I think most would be overjoyed with.

Kris, maybe you better read the original 5900 thread again as you will find that I was not the only one whith the transport grinding/ total lockup of the player among the first owners.
I was one of just a few that described it correctly though.

Mine 5900 only did this once while playing an sa-cd which had played fine earlier and afterwards.
Others had this happen while playing dvd's or sa-cd's and it was clearly talked about in the original thread.
Again, I don't see were your experience whith the 5900 or anyone else who had no problems has to do whith those of us that did.
This happened in the first 24 hours and required that the 5900 be unplugged to get it to respond to anything....hence total player lockup that was preceeded by violent transport grinding.
This is no secret.

I tried for two weeks to adjust for the macro blocking and excessive video noise in some dark scenes to no avail.

I do not think the 5900 was junk....just full of obvious bugs in my case, as well as many others.
I did see the awsome picture that you see on a lot of transfers and this makes it that much harder to except the terrible picture on some dark scene transfers.

I would buy another 5900 in a minute, if it were bug free on the video side and except that the transport grinding was a fluke to certain first batch machines.
As a matter a fact, if your going to continue to defend the 5900 bugs as being the fault of the owners lack of set up, I guess I will have to go get another 5900 because I hope you ARE right.

A modified for better audio 5900 was my plan and dream player minus the problems.

Calling the transport problem or the macro blocking Drama, is rediculous at best and very unproffesional of YOU. imho
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post #385 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 09:05 AM
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Go ahead and take yours back I'm keeping mine this player has performed flawlessly with everything I've thrown at it! I think this has been mentioned before but maybe the 5900 just isn't a good match with your display devices?
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post #386 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 09:08 AM
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i realy do like my 5900 (well A11 in my case) it is truly awsome and now with the hope i-link will be fixed im a much happier customer.

however macro blocking isnt a small deal. you can find a mention of it on most AV forums world wide, so this isnt a small time rant of a couple of people who regret spending there cash on such a dvd player.
this is in fact an actual issue. it is more noticable if you own a PJ as i dont realy see it on my plasma too much but on my pj which is calibrated i do see it more. take "brother where art thou" this dvd delivers a stunning pic but macro blocking is evident in all dark scenes.

if the blocking could be corrected by 50% via firmware than that would be ok by me.

Dustin
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post #387 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 09:27 AM
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Gandley,
I agree with you and love the player. The only issue is the macroblocking. My wife doesn't even notice there is anything wrong, but I have a more detailed eye. I watched SWAT last night and the scenes at the end of the movie had a ton of noise in them and a little macroblocking. I think the noise I noticed was because of the macroblock "fix" that Kris came up with. I will rewatch it today with the "fix" undone to see if the scenes look any better. I too hope that there is a firmware fix for the 5900 to fix the macroblocking. I can deal with the slow menu's because once the movie starts, it is a non-issue. I just want awesome PQ.

Dave

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post #388 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 10:07 AM
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Kris has spent alot of time to try and help with this player to see if he sees this problem and most of you dont seem to appriciate his work. you want to critcize him. he spends his own time on this and is not paid by anyone to do this but as a favor to us and others who repsect his and secrets opinions. so if you dont like his opinion or the 5900 then take it back and dont worry about it. those that love this player and respect his opinion will keep theres and will be happy.
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post #389 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 10:25 AM
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Well i thank kris for his candor and for his dedication to help us and the fact he has some weight to liase with denon on these topics. so i am full of respect for him and hold no negitive idears against him. infact i wish denon would show the same dedication he does.
i look forward to his repones with eager anticipation. nuff said realy

Dustin
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post #390 of 1111 Old 01-10-2004, 10:25 AM
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pbir and others,

For those who would like to know how to check the firmware revision on their 5900:

1) power the player off with the front panel power button

2) while holding the play and open/close buttons down, power the player on using the front panel power switch until you see the play and pause icons appear on the display

3) press the enter button on the remote to toggle through the various firmware registries

4) turn the power off using the power button on the front of the player to exit the firmware display mode

As I said before the only downside I noticed after the upgrade was the slow menu navigation that others were seeing compared to the earlier firmware. When I first received the 5900 I didn't understand the hoopla over the menu speed but now I see what the fuss was about. Not a deal breaker in my opinion though. The good thing is that I have seen it is possible to make the menu nav functions quicker with firmware. However, I wouldn't take the problems I was seeing back for the speed difference.
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