Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 01:57 PM
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JackG,

I actually posted the firmware display instructions a few days ago in this thread as well and I am the member who contacted Denon Canada for the firmware updates. As your firmware is the second last available from experience, I would say you only need the DVI Activation discs from Denon to bring your player up to snuff. The "-1" identifier simply means that the a partial update has been made to the XXXX level firmware. In this case these are the firmware numbers that are displayed just before updating the DVI Activation.

Good luck.
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post #452 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 02:10 PM
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Kris,

Could you check the difference between the standard and M1 settings in the picture adjustments? Even with black set to 0 IRE there appears to be a difference in picture between the two options even with no changes made from the default M1 setting. I am seeing a picture that is lower in overall level but, it seems, also slightly cleaner with darker blacks. Any reason why this might be?

Thanks.
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post #453 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 03:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I will look into it AV, thanks.

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post #454 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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MACROBLOCKING PROBLEM FIXED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bad news is, it's the Faroujda chip. Good news is, that can probably be fixed with firmware, unlike the ESS chip.

If you want to see what the player looks like with no black problems whatsoever, set the player "pic adjustment" mode to standard, and turn off the progressive output in the setup menu. EVERYTHING goes away. I tested it with Sound and Vision, VE, A Bug's Life and Monster's Inc. Blacks are perfect after that.

I will forward this on to Denon, but first I want to be sure it works the same in the Memory settings, and not just the standard setting.

AV Avatar, It appears that the STD setting may be using a different gamma scale which would lend to this. But the STD setting may be bypassing further processing as well. I'll know for sure in a minute after I check to see if the artifacts come back. The memory settings could be adjusting tweaks in the Faroudja solution, which is why I can rid some patterns of the artifacts using them.

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post #455 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 04:48 PM
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So maybe i was right about this being the faroudja? If they used silcon i know it dont upscale but im sure they can make it upscale. There may not have been this issue at all.
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post #456 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 04:50 PM
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I was seeing macroblocking with a pio 737 and infocus 5700 display from a 480i/576i and the projector uses the FLI2310, could it be that it´s the Faroudja that´s causing it?

Birgir "keyser"
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post #457 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 04:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay, it works with the memory settings as well. I went into M2 and set everything to default 0 values. Then I used DVE to calibrate the image using the players settings, so that the monitor wasn't affected. In interlaced mode, none of the artifacts were present, confirming again that the progressive mode is causing it. I will send this to Jeff at Denon right away.

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post #458 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 04:53 PM
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Kris,
If you turn off the progressive out in the menu, does that disable the DVI port?

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post #459 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 05:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Probably, since the DVI out uses the FLI chip. There is no way around it for DVI. Since 480P, 720P and 1080i all have to be de-interlaced. 1080i is actually 480i de-interlaced and scaled to 1080P then re-interlaced to 1080i. I just sent an email to Denon about this. I am also going to try some other FLI23xx based players and displays today to see if it is present with those. If it isn't then the chip has an implementation issue that can be resolved. If they all show it, it is hard to say what will happen. I am also going to try and have Stacey look at the new Meridian G series player he has. It uses the same chip so it would show it too.

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post #460 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 05:10 PM
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Thanks Kris.

I guess that also explains why, only using the interlaced outs, I have never seen the macroblocking problem.

The gamma in the M1 through M5 customizable settings are set, to my knowledge, flat across the board in the default position (all zeros) so shouldn't it be the same as STD? This, again, is only with the interlaced (no Faroudja) output. Shouldn't the output levels be the same from the ESS?
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post #461 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 05:26 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't know about the gamma levels. Since they don't list them for STD, who knows.

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post #462 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 07:16 PM
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Good news Kris! Glad to hear you've tracked this pesky critter down. Now, I'll be anxiously awaiting word from Denon. I'd be very happy to hear that Denon can indeed offer a firmware solution, maybe they can speed the menus up while they're at it ;)

The processing in my Toshiba RPTV is lousy. It upscales 480i &p inputs to 540, so interlaced inputs wouldn't work in my set up. At least the high def signals bypass the scaler and looks great.
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post #463 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 07:34 PM
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Martin,
I am in a similar situation with my Hitachi 57SWX20B. Having the 480P signal sent ads that 1 extra D/A conversion that ads more room for error. 99% of movies look great on the DVI input...it's just that pesky 1% that pisses me off!

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post #464 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
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I did some further research to narrow the problem down in the FLI2300. I went to the local A/V store that happens to have a Infocus 7200 and 5700. These projectors have full controls for the FLI chip. Using an interlaced player I calibrated the PJs and checked out the scenes on VE and A Bug's Life. I was able to recreate the problem on both projectors!! It is the Noise Reduction circuit turned all the way up. Stacey's Meridian didn't have the issue since they didn't turn on the NR circuit so I checked that first.

This should be nothing more then a register change in the chip and not a big deal at all.

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post #465 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 07:54 PM
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Kris,
I only have one thing to say: "WOOHOO!" Hopefully Denon can come up with a fix for it soon. So, it sounds as if they need to disable the noise reduction part of the chip (which I would assume would turn it off in the menu as well)?

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post #466 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 08:33 PM
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"If you turn off the progressive out in the menu, does that disable the DVI port?"

The DVI port does stays active when the progressive mode is disabled. At lease my 5900 does.

russ
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post #467 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 09:19 PM
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Hey Kris, are you sure your last name isn't really Holmes, as in Sherlock? Well done!

Any clues as to why the menus are so slow?
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post #468 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 09:32 PM
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Maybe it is Holmes, as in John!

HEHE

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post #469 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 09:40 PM - Thread Starter
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The Noise Reduction settings in the players menu aren't associated with the Faroudja chip. They are part of the ESS setup.

If the DVI port is still active with progressive turned off then the player is overriding the progressive switch. None of the output resolutions of the 5900 can be done without de-interlacing applied.

No clue on why menus are so slow, I wouldn't even know how to troubleshoot that. Hopefully Denon will find something, but I can live with that.

Hopefully the same firmware change that fixes the i-link will reconfigure the FLI chip as well. Then we have an all in one solution. You'll know more when I do. All of the info has been sent to Denon, but with CES just over I may not hear from them for a bit.

I am lucky though. My plasma (NEC 42VP4) has a great de-interlacer. It passes all of our de-interlacing tests that we run at Secrets, with the exception of the flag test which has only been passed by a DCDi based solution. It even passes the tests that Sony and Pioneer haven't been able to. So I will just use that instead of the FLI until I get a fix from Denon. My plasma doesn't support HDCP anyways so it is no big deal.

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post #470 of 1111 Old 01-11-2004, 09:48 PM
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Based on the speed difference I have seen when going from the oldest to the newest firmware, I believe Denon should be able to enhance the response time. Maybe we'll luck out and get a Faroudja/i-link/menu speed update soon and make everyone happy.

Thanks for all your hard work Kris.
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post #471 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 12:21 AM
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NR seemed to make sense. I was talking to a customer of mine and he had just said the same thing about a Sony 9000ES. Reducing the DNR to certain level corrected a similar effect. I am glad that everyone was able to figure this out. When I watched Monsters INC. I was completely blown away. My impression about Disney/Pixar movies have always been very high. I just hope that this issue is correctable very soon, so that my ideas of Denon products can remain perfectly intact. Thanks to Everyone and Kris for starting the thread. Can anyone possibly furnish some settings that are useful in the PIC ADJ.
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post #472 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 12:35 AM
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Kris-
Excellent news on the fix. Your perseverance and dedication have paid off to EVERYONE's benefit. It's Denon's turn to take the ball and run with it- you've earned your beer(s).

Now... if I can just get Cracker Jack to start including a 5900 in every box, I'll be all set ;).

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post #473 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 03:28 AM
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Kris................u the man

thanks for your help, i feel happier now. soon as my PJ gets back ill do the tests.

(out of interest kris when i send a progressive signal from the A11 or my toshiba dvd player to my PJ, it dosent size the image correctly. and also adds a red tint to the whole pic and black areas are murky red.. what up with this. all works fine when i send it a interlaced signal. oh and its component im using)

Dustin
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post #474 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 04:54 AM
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Kris,

I have been following this thread as I have recently purchased the A11 (European equivalent).

I would like to express sincere thanks for your continued research and experimentation in this and every other area you undertake. Without the dedicated interest and pursuit of excellence that you obviously show, we the consumers would be considerably less better off!

I concur that this unit is as close to perfection in it's price bracket and hopefully Denon will ice the cake with new firmwares to iron out the foibles.

Thank you once again Kris.

Darren

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post #475 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 05:51 AM
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Lo darren,

Dustin
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post #476 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 07:49 AM
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So Kris....are you saying that the Blocking problem "should" still be there on the DVI port...regardless if the player is set to interlaced or prgressive. It only goes away in the interlaced mode?

By the way... thanks....I just voted you for a People's Choice Award!!!!!
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post #477 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 08:39 AM
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Kris,

Ok, it seems like you have narrowed the issue down to being related to the FLI2300 chip. I currently own a Samsung HLN617W DLP tv which USES that chip. I see a lot of macroblocking and things of that sort (also the dreaded "clay faces" issues as well. I was wondering, do you think this issue needs to be addresses on EVERY device that uses the FLI2300? Can you give us specifics on what Denon or you determine in terms of chip settings to correct the problem?

Thanks,
Jeff
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post #478 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 08:44 AM
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I have a scaler with the FLI2300 and that was the first thing I turned off. It doesn't only create marcroblocking it also creates ghost images when something bright is shown and then a black screen it leaves an ghost image of it. But when the noise reduction is turned off all this goes away.
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post #479 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Jeff

The problem is the noise reduction circuit in the FLI2310. Some monitors and projectors allow you to turn it off and on or set its intensity level. By turning it off the problem goes away. This should be very simple to do for the techs at whatever company implemented it at. It would just be a simple register change.If you have a display that allows you to adjust it, just turn it off. I know the IF 7200 and 5700 allow for this, that is how I figured it out.

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post #480 of 1111 Old 01-12-2004, 10:24 AM
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Kris,

Thanks for the info. I DO have a setting for NR (ON/OFF) in the service menu of the Sammy tv under the FLI2300 chip settings. I'll try monkeying with this and see if it makes any appreciable difference. Thanks for the info!

Regards,
Jeff
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