Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1111 Old 01-17-2004, 11:19 AM
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Dean,
You can play with the noise reduction setting in the user menu, but it has many drawbacks. It will make the dark backgrounds full of noise and you lose black detail. I would just leave the settings at 0IRE and everything else at default for now until a fix is made. It looks the best that way. 99% of the disks don't have the macroblocking problems anyway.

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post #542 of 1111 Old 01-17-2004, 11:27 AM
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No, the NR setting in the Pic Adj menu is for the ESS NR. The artifact here is caused by the FLI2310 NR. It is always on and you can adjust it.

The problem exists on all discs. It becomes noticable when you have a strong luma precense. When there is a lot of color, it is harder to see.
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post #543 of 1111 Old 01-17-2004, 12:14 PM
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sspears.

but can denon turn Faroudja NR off via firmware?

Dustin
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post #544 of 1111 Old 01-17-2004, 12:14 PM
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Stacey,
I realize that. But if you tweak out the macroblocking using the ESS settings in the user menu, then it makes the dark scenes unwatchable with so much noise. That is why I said to leave well enough alone and wait for a fix from Denon (hopefully sooner than later). Also, Stacey, do you think Denon will be able to speed up the menus with a firmware fix? Since doing the DVI upgrade, the menu speed slowed down a little from when the player was new.

Thanks,

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post #545 of 1111 Old 01-17-2004, 01:17 PM
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Stacey,

Will any of the soon to be available HDMI DVD players send out Y'CbCr.. and any of them at higher than 8 bits?

If so, would these players have the option of sending out something that would be compatible with DVI input only displays.. that way it would be possible to get the most out of current DVI displays and also future HDMI ones?

Birgir "keyser"
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post #546 of 1111 Old 01-17-2004, 06:52 PM
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I don't find any off the ESS setting to make macroblocking better. It may fix at one IRE level, but it just makes another worse.

I don't believe the speed can be changed in software. I suspect it is the hardware they chose. Not really sure though.

The NR is a register in the FLI2310. Everyone else leaves it off. It is something that could be corrected. I hope Denon does offer an update.

The Meridian G98 that I have will output 20-bit Y'CbCr right now. When you connect to a DVI display, it drops into compat mode and outputs 8-bit R'G'B'. Only true HDMI to HDMI will offer the improvements. When you go HDMI to DVI, you simply are doing basic single link DVI.
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post #547 of 1111 Old 01-19-2004, 05:54 PM
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I'm sure there's not but wanted to check and see if there's any updates Kris?

-Nick
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post #548 of 1111 Old 01-19-2004, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
I hope Denon does offer an update.
As do I.
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post #549 of 1111 Old 01-20-2004, 01:20 AM
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"Since doing the DVI upgrade, the menu speed slowed down a little from when the player was new."

Amazing how they managed to make it SLOWER and not faster.

"I hope Denon does offer an update."

I suggest a recall...

The 5900 might be a nice try, but ultimately it's a failure as a serious DVD-player. Denon has had to many crappy design faults in their DVD lineup to excuse this yet again.


Espen B
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post #550 of 1111 Old 01-20-2004, 01:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by keyser
Stacey,

Will any of the soon to be available HDMI DVD players send out Y'CbCr.. and any of them at higher than 8 bits?

Somebody found that the Pioneer DV868 (aka 59AVi) puts out digital Y'CbCr through HDMI on the settings 'Direct' and 'Natural', and digital RGB on the setting 'Enhanced'.

FWIW...

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post #551 of 1111 Old 01-20-2004, 04:58 PM
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Grubert
Do you have a link to that YCbCr output information?

I wonder if this information is available in the DV-59AVi's manual.

The most efficient path is seldom a straight line.
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post #552 of 1111 Old 01-20-2004, 07:32 PM
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I watched X-Men 1.5 & X-Men 2 over the weekend. The 5900 produced sparkling PQ through a DVI-to-HDMI connection to my Pioneer 1110HD plasma. However, I noticed that the 5900 paused many times during X-Men 1.5. This is not a macroblocking issue, but this thread seems to discuss many 5900 issues.

Examples of the pauses occurred at the following approximate times:

ch.12: 27m, 18s
ch.14: 29m, 53s
ch.16: 36m, 34s
ch.17: 38m, 22s
ch.22: 49m, 48s

Some of these are chapter boundaries, and some are not. I don't think any of these are layer changes, but I could be wrong. The pauses are very brief (less than a second), so it's not too bad, but it's a little distracting. I checked the disc on my Sony DVP-NS900V, and it did not have any of these pauses.

Does anyone else have this problem w/X-Men 1.5 on a 5900? Thanks.
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post #553 of 1111 Old 01-20-2004, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by rlee

Does anyone else have this problem w/X-Men 1.5 on a 5900? Thanks.
Well, not on a 5900, but I do have very repeatable multiple pauses on X-Men 1.5 on my Denon 3800. I'll take a look when I have a chance and see if the pause times I'm seeing match your numbers.

-Steve
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post #554 of 1111 Old 01-20-2004, 08:26 PM
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doesn't x-men 1.5 have a "follow the white rabbit" type option?

i found the same thing with finding Nemo as they've used Branching for the visual commentary inserts.
i was getting a 1/4 second audio drop out at one particular point and \\ONLY via DTS, and it happened to be the exact point where the "return" point was if you happened to be watching the visual commentary (and given that i wasn't watching it, it just drops the audio out at the point instead.... HOWEVER, i was able to repeat this problem about 6 times, BUT when i ejected the DVD and reloaed it, the problem wasn't duplicated (so there's something of a memory buffer issue at hand, and i do tend to go back and forth and skip audio tracks when playing around with a DVD :)

Robocop SE is another one to try as they've used branching for seemless playback of either the theatrical cut or director's cut.

given what's under the bonnet of the A11/5900, it shouldn't do it as it relies on the memory buffer to cover any diversions occurred when either playing these add on extras, or skipping past them.

BTW maybe we need to start up a seperate "problem/bugs thread" for the A11/5900....or is there one on here that i missed :) i have a list of issues (currently at 10 problems) that i'll be sending to Denon in Australia.

Matt.G

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post #555 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 03:04 AM
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Matt, could you post the 10 problems on your list?

Espen
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post #556 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 03:55 AM
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sure, here is it (work in progess)

mg.

- Very Slow Menu Changes : there's a 3 second delay once you make a menu change. most players are approx 1 second, and while 3 seconds may not seem like alot, this does tend to make you wonder if you have properly selected the option to begin with.

- DVI output automatically stretches 4x3 (1.33:1) images to 16x9 when in 720P mode. most 16x9 Projectors do not allow you to resize an image via DVI. the DVD player restretches all DVD pictures to 16x9 mode regardless of the original aspect on the DVD when outputting 720P.... HOWEVER when outputting 576P it's available...seeing as the image is not rescaled when output, seeing as it is it it's native aspect/format/ratio....

- 720P output reduces overall image size slightly. this results in the image being window boxed with black bars all around. on a 100" widescreen image this creates a 1-2inch black bar on each side of the screen

- 720P image mapping is shifted to the side. on PAL DVDs the image needs to be shifted -2 WHEREAS on NTSC material it needs to be on +6. as you could imagine if you are switching between NTSC and PAL DVDs then you have to readjust the H Position setting each time, otherwise the image is not centred correctly.

the odd thing is there is an option on the player setting that DOES allow you to output a 4x3 image within a 16x9 window (with black bars on the SIDES) via the component output (and this feature should be included on the DVI output otherwise we get fat people on screen when viewing 4x3 framed images :)

- DVD Tray does not close when you turn the DVD player OFF. if you happen to have the draw open, and DON'T press CLOSE before turning OFF the machine, it leaves the tray sticking out... HOWEVER, when you then turn the player ON, the first thing the DVD player does is CLOSE the draw.

- Chapter skipping won't "reverse" back more than 2 chapters at a time. if you are at (for example) chapter 10 and want to skip ahead to chapter 3, you can't simply press the SKIP REV button 7 times in a row. you can press it 2 times in one go, then wait for that particular chapter to start playing, then you can press it 2 more times, and so on, which makes it a rather slow and laborious choir...FORWARD skipping works fine.

- DVI turns OFF if not in use (be it for music listening, or watching via alternate output line). This requires manual activation via the front panel display. (no remote control activation available for this feature).

- Subtitles occassionally pop up and don't turn off - in my case was watching the region 4 Die Another Day and even though i had subtitles turned OFF, they appeared at the 47 min mark in BLUE at the bottom of the screen AND partially at the top (with the exact same text). these words stayed on the screen at both the top and bottom, even though different words continued to be spoken and it wasn't until the pressed the Chapter skip button that they went away.

- Discs occasionnaly lock up during LOAD processes. when you first PLAY a DVD, on occasions they simply won't start up correctly. The Screen goes blank during the disc loading processes and nothing happens. You then need to STOP the DVD and press PLAY again and it will re-load correctly. This is a very random problem and i have had it occur on 3 different occasions and am unable to repeat the problem with the same DVD.

- Audio/Image Dropouts on select DVD titles with Branching. On Finding Nemo (for eg.) I was getting a 1/4 second audio drop out at one particular point and ONLY via DTS, and it happened to be the exact point where the "return" point was if you happened to be watching the visual commentary (and given that i wasn't watching it, it just drops the audio out at the point instead.... HOWEVER, i was able to repeat this problem about 6 times, BUT when i ejected the DVD and reloaed it, the problem wasn't duplicated (so there's something of a memory buffer issue at hand, and i do tend to go back and forth and skip audio tracks when playing around with a DVD)

Matt Goldsmith
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post #557 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 05:08 AM
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The slow menus, and the subtitles popping up at odd times were the two things that made me return my 5900.

I could live with the macroblocking and seeing the pauses on layer changes, but I felt that for two thousand dollars the player should be a top performer in all aspects.

-- Cain
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post #558 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 05:22 AM
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Why does every one keep saying about the drawer not closing? IT IS MEANT TO BE THAT WAY.It is beyond me why everyone keeps saying its a problem. Denon has done this for a resaon and it is very simple and anyone that has done a firmware upgrade form denon should know why. This is a example of a firmware up grade Remopve disk one insert disk two LEAVE TRAY OPEN AND TURN OFF POWER, Why do you not undertsand that this is for a reason?
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post #559 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 05:49 AM
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i guess the thought of leaving the tray open on my player is a problem due to any/all of the following :-

1) additional dust getting in.

2) tray door being open and a cabinet door being slammed into it (by both children and adults alike)

3) children thinking it a fun play toy to break off because they've tried using it as a springboard for their star wars storm-troopers.

4) won't be doing firmware upgrades on my player everyday.

i think that's reason enough for practical "end user" usage.

Matt.G

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post #560 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 06:50 AM
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Seems my "cats" have more respect for my av equipment than your children have for yours!:O)
With my 5900 it seems that if you switch the display output to dvi first than trun on the dvd player the dvi setting stays if that is what you used when you shut it down. Except when playing cd's I got to seset it when I'm at the player loading a disc in it is not to much bother to set the dvi again.
This unit was one of the last "batches" arrive here and I can't get it to screw up yet.
Sure the layer changes are slow but so am I!
20 movies and haven't had a dic lock up yet.
As far as nemo goes I feel that besides the stunning colors this disc is horrible.
The tray staying open is no big deal to me. I got to get off my butt and retrieve the disc or cd anyway.
For the stunning pictures on my plasma (steaming rat calibrated) it is awsume!!!
To each his own I quess but I am keeping my 5900.
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post #561 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 08:27 AM
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For those reading this long thread trying to decide if they should purchase one of these I'll side with Hovbuild. I've had the Lexicon, Linn, Pioneer and Denon in my system. I liked the Linn best but didn't want to pay for it. IMHO the image and sound quality from this Denon player more than make up for any faults I've experienced. It's staying where it is until HD/DVD arrives.

Ken
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post #562 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 08:40 AM
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Leave it to kevinca to defend leaving a disc drawer open. Of course it's needed for firmware upgrades if Denon designed it to work that way, but wouldn't it be better if it closed automatically and Denon came up with a slightly different firmware process? Y'know, something like two presses of a particular button to keep the tray open for upgrades.

Kevinca, why always a defense instead of proposing a solution to a not so great idea?
Denon will certainly consider reasonable suggestions.
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post #563 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 09:07 AM
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I don't have a problem with the DVI turning off. Mine stays on without any problems even if I play a CD, DVI is always active. The tray staying open doesn't bother me, just close it before shutting down the unit (don't be so damn lazy). Slow menus are bothersome, but not a deal killer (pq more than makes up for this). Subtitile popup has only happened twice, minor annoyance that I believe Denon will fix. I agree with Ken, overall I would give this player 98% (all things considered). It is a keeper.

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post #564 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
DVI output automatically stretches 4x3 (1.33:1) images to 16x9 when in 720P mode.
It is NOT doing anything to the image but displaying it as is. It is your display that is stretching the 4x3 image. If you play that same DVI output into a 4x3 display, the image will not be stretched.

Adjustable aspect ratio is NOT part of the DVD spec. It is a feature that, so far, only one company has done a really good job at presenting.

Now with that said, I do agree that they should enable the feature for DVI output. Of course I would still not use it as my display allows me to adjust aspect ratio.
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post #565 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
It is NOT doing anything to the image but displaying it as is. It is your display that is stretching the 4x3 image. If you play that same DVI output into a 4x3 display, the image will not be stretched.
Stacey,

You're right. The display (PJ) is stretching the image. That's the problem. I can't change the AR from 16:9 to 4:3 on the PJ, regardless of what AR I choose.

I'm no expert but I fail to understand why the 5900 doesn't let me change the AR on the PJ when set to 720p and 1080i (independent from the AR chosen I always get a stretched image) but does let me change the AR to 4:3 (on the PJ) when I set the Denon to 480p through DVI.

We are talking here about the same player connected to the same PJ so the why is the PJ's behavior different when receiving 480p and 720p from the Denon?

As a side note, when driven by a Momitsu, set at 480p, 720p and 1080i through DVI using the same PJ I can change the image to the 4:3 AR.
I also don't have image shifting problems with this player.

Can it be that the timings for 720 and 1080 on the Denon through DVI trigger some kind of AR flag on the PJ? Those timings would also explain the image shifting problem some are experiencing with DVI.

Regards,
Pedro
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post #566 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 01:30 PM
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Dave,
Quote:
I don't have a problem with the DVI turning off. Mine stays on without any problems even if I play a CD, DVI is always active.
On my player DVI turns off when ever I change the input on my display.
It's not possible to select DVI on the player if the dvi input on the display has not been previously selected.

I guess this has to do with the handshaking process of HDCP. Whenever the player stops getting a "return signal" from the display it shuts the DVI output (like it happens when I change input on my display). Could it be that, while you listen to a CD you keep your display active on DVI?

Anyway, I guess Denon should change (in firmware?) that kind of behavior on the DVI output.

Regards,
Pedro
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post #567 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 03:31 PM
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Pedro,
Both of these problems are with your display, and not with the 5900. I can change inputs on my display and the 5900 still stays locked in DVI. Also, aspect ratio is being controled by your display and not the 5900. The 5900 is sending out a 720P signal, but your display when receiving a 720P signal locks into 16x9 (at least mine does). If I change to 480P, then I regain aspect ratio control on my display. It locks into 16x9 with any high-def signal.

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post #568 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 04:56 PM
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Dave,
Quote:
Both of these problems are with your display, and not with the 5900. I can change inputs on my display and the 5900 still stays locked in DVI.
You may be right.
That would mean your display would keep sending the signal needed for the "HDCP handshaking process" even when you are not using the DVI output. That would be the only way around since HDCP performs a link-integrity check every two seconds during the signal encryption phase.
That way your Denon would keep the DVI output active all the time.

Or there could be two different versions of the 5900/A11?
Quote:
Also, aspect ratio is being controlled by your display and not the 5900. The 5900 is sending out a 720P signal, but your display when receiving a 720P signal locks into 16x9 (at least mine does). If I change to 480P, then I regain aspect ratio control on my display. It locks into 16x9 with any high-def signal.
I agree with you in that it's the display that locks to the 16:9 AR when receiving 720p. Mine does it also. Like you at 480p I regain control of AR.

What I don't understand:

Why is it that, when I use my Momitsu through DVI out to the same display at 720p and 1080i, I am still able to choose the 4:3 AR (on the display).
I don't need to revert to 480p to do it.

Regards,
Pedro
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post #569 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 05:32 PM
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Pedro,
Not sure about that, but maybe Momitsu figured out a way to trick the display device. Not sure about that one. Maybe Sspears has an answer.

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post #570 of 1111 Old 01-21-2004, 06:14 PM
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am i right in thinking that when in 720P mode on the player, the image sent is actually 1280x720? WHEREAS in 480P the image is 720x480?

with a 16x9 "HD2" display device, the 720P image maps the exact chip pixel size so doesn't require scaling/resizing by the projector....... whereas in 480P mode the display device receivces an image that it MAY have to stretch out in the horizontal plane, assuming it's an anamorphic widescreen DVD, which is why you get screen aspect options.
On my Sharp Z10000 when it receives 480P via DVI i get modes for 4x3, 16x9, letterboxed, and "smart stretch for 4x3 images).
Via 720P i get pixel to pixel, or "fill screen"...seeing in P-P mode there's some 1-2 inches of sidewindowboxing.

my thinking was that "theoretically" the DVD player only needs to resize the image vertically, and then add black bars to each side of a true 1.33:1 image to make it fill a 1.78:1 area and can then output it as true 16x9 to solve the problem for "DVI" people with 16x9 displays that don't have additional controls in 720P mode.

Seeing as the 5900 CAN DO 16x9 side and windowboxing via it's other analogue output connections my question to Denon would be, Why it can't do this via DVI by first reading the "aspect flag" on the DVD to determine the required image type?

thanks

Matt.G

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