Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 02:30 PM
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As an ongoing reader of this thread, and someone who is waiting on a potential purchase of a 5900 until a fix comes out or a product with the feature set and not the bug comes out, I'd like to see 2 things.

1.) This thread to stay 'open' for discussion of the issue, and any updates to it. That way we can know when/if an update is issued and what the results of said upgrade are.

2.) A seperate thread on the alternate player and the licensing issues in producing an SDI player (perhaps 2 threads). There must be some interest in it given the amount of discussion so far.

This way everything stays clear and everyone is happy. I hope to be an owner of a 5900 (without noise reduction noise) soon.
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post #632 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 03:31 PM
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Charles
If you don't mind, I for one would like to see your reply to the question here as well. As someone who is in the industry, your comments might help people who are interested in the reason or reasons why some manufacturers encrypt the digital output understand this hot and often debated topic.


OT Discussion
In case some of you don't realize how threads work at AVS Forum, as a thread gets a reply, it moves up the page. As long as there are replies to a thread at a reasonable rate, it stays on page 1. As the reply rate dwindles, so does the thread's position on a page, until it drops off to the next page. It doesn't take a genius (then again, maybe it does) to realize that these questions, answers and discussions, while not directly related to the main topic, keep the thread in plain view for all to see on page 1. Isn't that how most of you were made aware of this thread, by it existing on page 1?

I would bet that the extra discussions which have taken place in this thread have benefited and/or educated the many people that participate in it, as well as those who just monitor the thread for information, in one way or another. Isn't that part of the reason that this forum exists in the first place? Is it not to share information and educate those seeking to learn more about this hobby?

I realize that most of you want answers to the questions about the DVD5900. That said, a few of the topics discussed in this thread are not directly related to this product. However, these OT discussions are directly related to DVD playback in general, which the DVD5900 is a part of by definition.

As for resolution to the problem that the DVD5900 seems to have, the answer will come from Denon. I would expect that Kris Deering, since he has corresponded with Denon on this issue, will let everyone know Denon's response in this thread. Until that time, what is the harm in letting participants in this thread share information with other members? Trust me, when the news comes, it will be posted. It's not like you will miss it due to the fact that Kris couldn't get through because the thread was busy!

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post #633 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 03:53 PM
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I too would like to see Charles start a new thread if you all want to discuss Ayre products and/or DVD Forum issues. The info is very interesting and I'd like to see the dialog continue as well, but feel that this isn't the place. It really has nothing to do with the Denon 5900 except in the very broadest sense. Discrete topics are a GOOD thing. Just my dos centavos.


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post #634 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 05:57 PM
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These are my firmware numbers

ESS 6334-1
Make Day 1015
DRV 030825
System 6542-1
DSP1 6332
DSP2 6333

It looks like these are the same numbers some other members have posted. I did do the DVI update via discs sent by Denon.


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post #635 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 06:23 PM
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Those are current. I just recieved an update from Jeff for my DSP today.
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post #636 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 06:49 PM
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1SalesPro,
Did Jeff say anything about a timeframe for a new update?

Thanks,

Dave

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post #637 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 07:14 PM
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No. He did 2 shows back to back, he just back in office last Wed, and I'm sure the activity follow up is heavy, I'll drop him a line next week and mention all the discussion to see where Denon stands. These updates don't seem to happen overnite and he wasn't even aware or the random closed caption pop ups until I mentioned it while he was @ the Vegas show. I'll post whatever I find HERE. Actually, I suppose after I successfully change my DSP, I'll write and ask then so I'll leave some info hopefully by or during this weekend..........
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post #638 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 07:32 PM
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The random caption popups aren't specific to this model, and may be an issue across Denon's product line. I've observed them on a DVM-1805 and DVM-900 myself, in the same spot(s). I figured since it happened on multiple models that it was exposing some bug on the disc, but I may very well be wrong.
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post #639 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 07:36 PM - Thread Starter
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I still have not had a single subtitle pop up. I have watched a ton of discs too. Maybe the firmware upgrade that enables the DVI output cures it??

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post #640 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 08:15 PM
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Kris i never had any subtitles pop up until i watched alias season 1. It happened 3 times and once in alias season 2.I do have the upgraded 5900 hundred with the dvi activated.
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post #641 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 10:02 PM
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It's happened to me twice during the LOTR Two Towers extended edition, but never again.

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post #642 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 10:10 PM
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"It's happened to me twice during the LOTR Two Towers extended edition"

The same thing happened to me on a 3800 when watching the above and I thought it was a flaw in the DVD. This is the only time, however.

Perhaps Denon does have some general but rare issue with sub-titles.

Phil
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post #643 of 1111 Old 01-27-2004, 11:22 PM
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Well this has put me off getting the Denon DVD-A11/5700. Just spoke to the importers here in Oz and according to Denon Japan as of 2 weeks ago they see no problems with the DVD-5700/A11 in regards to macroblocking (and this issue was raised back in November on this forum I think) . Now if Denon Japan whom write the firmware for our players don't recognise a problem what chance is there for a solution to this issue let alone the other issues with this player?

Where is Jeff when you need him?
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post #644 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 12:15 AM
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Nope, no subtitle pop here so far. 2 x LOTR and a stack of other DVDs, ran out of fingers to count it on so...cheers !

5900 with DVI enabled.

In regards to "macroblocking", "Underworld" is a great DVD to exhibit, lots and lots of dark scenes with panning motion....
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post #645 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 02:00 AM
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The Japanese (sorry for the stereotype) can be frustrating to deal with. It will probably be difficult to get someone to acknowledge the problem, then have someone fix it and 'save face'.

I've exported to Japan and to get someone to correct a mistake is a much different process than we in North America (and Australia) would expect. If it gets fixed, it will be without fanfare for sure.
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post #646 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
I still have not had a single subtitle pop up. I have watched a ton of discs too. Maybe the firmware upgrade that enables the DVI output cures it??
Nope. My player exhibits the problem on The Two Towers Extended Edition even after the DVI firmware update. It's completely repeatable - happens every time at the same time reference. I'd be happy to provide it for you if you'd like Kris.


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post #647 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by esp1
"So until the macroblocking issue is resolved, for DVD playback, is there a better choice?? Denon 2900??"

The 2900 has the chroma upsampling error (despite Denon's FALSE claim to the contrary on their homepage).


Espen B
Picked up a 2900 yesterday.

Did the Avia Y/C test. It appears that the color bars are even with the gray ones at -.07. Is this significant??

:confused:

By the way, when I was demoing the 2900 at a Tweeters with a 50" GWIII, I noticed what I would call noise in areas with solid color and the overall picture had kind of a grainy look that could be mitigated with sharpness adjustment on the TV. The one I purchased that I put on a 60" GWIII didn't have the grainy look nor the noise in the solid areas.

Don't know if this helps in your discussion on the 5900, but it does sound like there is a difference in firmware on the 2900.

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post #648 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 05:45 AM
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O'Doush,

I have Underworld and I had no macroblocking at all. The dark areas were solid and very detailed. As a matter of fact only 2 of my 250 DVD's have anything that looks like macroblocking and it may just be the DVD. Also, just for information I did not upgrade to DVI since my TV does not support it. I have a Toshiba 57HX81 (CRT Based) ISF'd. I am now wondering if maybe my software is fine with NR in the off position and when those that upgraded to DVI the NR switch was turned on. Maybe Kris can shed some light if this is possible. Kris?

Ron
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post #649 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 05:46 AM
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i get subtitle popup in bruce almighty. funny thing is i cant get it to do it again.(it did first 2 viewings) Also had it happen in twister and the one phrase stayed for about 2 mins and then went. interesting thing is in bruce almighty the subtitles werent in english. yet audio track was english 5.1.
strange.

But no pop up in two towers ever

Dustin
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post #650 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I have watched the Two Towers Extended Edition several times with no issues, and Bruce Almighty. Weird.

I don't know what to say about Denon Japan, if they are in denial there isn't much that can be done. I am still pressing though.

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post #651 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 08:41 AM
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I'm sure Kris is better connected than I with Denon but as of 2 days ago there was no official word from Japan on the macroblocking issue. Jeff said he was hoping to hear something soon. So my guess is that there is still hope.

John
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post #652 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 08:45 AM
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Oh and BTW, the 2900 does not have the CUE. It has a different issue but not the CUE.

John
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post #653 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 08:50 AM
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There are 3 forms of the CUE, the 2900 has one of them.

Charles - I agree about SDI, but I am just going with one that has a chance of being supported by many companies. Cost is way out there as you point out.

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post #654 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 10:48 AM
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I experienced random captions while watching "U-571." The caption would stay on the screen for a minute or so . . . well beyond the scene to which it was related. Part of the film's dialogue is in German with English subtitles, so when the caption first appeared I thought it was intended.

I saw this again on "LOTR: Two Towers," but it did not appear on a second viewing. I have not viewed "U-571" again and have not experienced random captions on any of the 20 or so other DVDs viewed on this machine.

Both random caption instances happened after I performed the update and began using the DVI output.

Larry
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post #655 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 11:25 AM
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Would a poll be of any value to convince Denon of either the captions issue or of the macroblocking, or whatever you want to call it?

I have watched well over 40 DVDs, including most of those mentioned, with never any captions poping up. I did have the macroblock issue, but I got rid of it by calibration tweaks. I have the DVI update, but not using it. Yet.
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post #656 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 01:12 PM
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Just an FYI.

Though the firmware may be DVI enabled on your machine, which it was on my 5900 (I had access to the DVI options through the front panel), in my discussions with Denon Canada, I was informed that the firmware updates must be perfomed in a specific order. I was also informed that the firmware was the only way to know if the player was up to date. I was told that the ESS, SYSTEM and DSP must be updated before the DVI Activation is done. As I was one of you with the subtitle pop up issue, I can assure you that since completing the updates as issued from Denon, I have not seen a single pop up since - including Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers EE. My guess is that there may be some 5900s that have not been updated in the correct order or have older firmware in the distribution channels.

For reference, my original firmware (with DVI activated) was:

ESS - 0021-2
MAKE DAY - 901A
DRV - 030825
SYSTEM - 0025.6
DSP1 - 0014
DSP2 - 0020

After completing the ESS, SYSTEM and DSP updates:

ESS - 6334
MAKE DAY - 924
DRV - 030825
SYSTEM - 6542
DSP1 - 6332
DSP2 - 6333

And after completing the DVI Activation update:

ESS - 6334-1
MAKE DAY - 1015
DRV - 030825
SYSTEM - 6542-1
DSP1 - 6332
DSP2 - 6333

My 5900 now performs more in line with what Kris is seeing. His firmware strangely shows a slightly newer MAKE DAY (1016) than most others.

The one area that wasn't a step forward however was the menu speed. It now takes a few seconds more to access DVD sub menus than before the updates. Not a huge deal IMO but some may be bothered by the lag.

I will try U-571 tonight and let you know if I see any subtitles pop up. I have watched some 25 movies since the updates and have not had this issue since.
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post #657 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 01:44 PM
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How do you check for the firm version ?
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post #658 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 02:06 PM
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O'Doush,

First, power off the player. Then, with the open/close and play buttons held down, turn the power back on. When you see the play and pause icons appear on the front panel display, hit the enter button on the remote to toggle through the various settings. When finished, power the player off again.
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post #659 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 03:33 PM
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Thanks AV Avatar !

Interestingly, I had my 5900 DVI activated at Scan Audit, in the valley, CA and the firmware version is as follows:

ESS - 6334
MAKE DAY - 924
DRV - 030825
SYSTEM - 6542-1
DSP1 - 6332
DSP2 - 6333

My ESS & MAKE DAY is still one revision below yours, not if this means anything.

Hey, can you check your 5900 with the AVIA crosshatch or any of the geometry pattern and see if you have the right edge clipped/cropped issue ?

Thanks very much !

Cheers,
Alby
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post #660 of 1111 Old 01-28-2004, 04:28 PM
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O'Doush,

I would take your 5900 back to Scan Audit and have them run the DVI Activation (the disc should be a November 2003 release) again as it seems they may have applied the ESS update after the DVI Activation. After that your firmware should be up to snuff. As I said before, get the updates in the wrong order and the firmware registries do not get written to correctly and can cause strange problems.

As far as the pixel cropping goes, there was no difference after the updates. My player shows 4 pixels on the left side are cropped. I will check it again but I'm pretty sure the result did not change from the first time I ran the tests through. Either way I'll let you know.
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