Denon 5900 macroblocking favor - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by LEVESQUE
Cool.

So we will see the nit-picking dropping exponantially... :D


Certainly you gest. :D

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post #722 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 07:34 AM
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Kris, I am wondering if this might be the case.

When setting the IRE, you must set it on one of the user defined memories on the Picture Quality settings menu correct? When I power off my 5900 the next time I power it on it automatically goes to the std picture quality settings. If you push Pic.Adj on the remote twice it will go to the correct memory setting thus getting you back to the 0 IRE setting. If you do not do this you will be on the 7.5 IRE and have "macroblocking".

I think that this could be the problem people are seeing some of the time. I watched Lost in Translation and didn't see any of the macroblocking that people are talking about. I have been amazed how bad people describe the picture of the 5900. I just don't see it and I am running it to a 106" screen!

I think this should be a fix that should be brought to Jeffs attention.

I know this sounds like a moronic ploy, but it is something that could easily be overlooked by someone.
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post #723 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:01 AM
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Go to pic adjust then scoll along to "set" this is where you set the black level between either 0 or 7ire. not under the memory settings.


also ive just been told by denon that i am the first in the UK to report the subtitle issue.
so anybody else in UK get on the phone to Denon tech support on 01753 888447

Dustin
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post #724 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:03 AM
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Dustin,

I know how to set the IRE. It only applies it to memory presets. If you power off the player it reverts back to std. Which is 7.5 IRE. I guarantee you some of the complaints on this forum are due to this.
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post #725 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:06 AM
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No it applies it to all. on my player it dos not reset back.

the setting is not a part of the memory presets but is an overall setting

Dustin
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post #726 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:08 AM
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Not on my 5900. Again, If you power off the player it reverts back to the 7.5 IRE until you hit the Pic.adj button. It is a major pain in the A$$. So am I the only one that has this problem? Are you running enhanced black level on DVI?
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post #727 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:14 AM
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No i am running via component in progressive mode.

it does reset back to STD but the 0IRE remains set for me.

are you going into one of the M(X) settings to set black IRE

Dustin
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post #728 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:21 AM
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No if you set the player on STD and change the IRE to 0 it still reverts back to 7.5 IRE on power off. I am running the 5900 via DVI so it could be different. I noticed this about 4 months ago. I watched a movie and thought the picture was just horrible. Macroblocking, bad blacks. I opened the Pic.adj menu and didn't change a thing. When I closed the menu the picture changed back to the normal blacks and no macroblocking. Weird.
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post #729 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:24 AM
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that is weird. just turned my off at wall. powerd back on and black is still 0IRE.

mine is the european model A11 which seems to then default to 0IRE

Dustin
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post #730 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:32 AM
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I use the remote to power on/off and mine does not revert back. Perhaps it's a power thing if you are using the main power on the unit. I do know if all power is cut off DVI is turned to off so maybe the settings are lost . But no prob here except the closed captions.
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post #731 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:34 AM
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Sales pro

i have just started another thread for subtitle caption. plz could you make a post there as i want to show this to denon uk who claim im the first to report the issue. thanks

Dustin
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post #732 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 08:34 AM
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It seems to happen if I power off at the player or the remote. I will check it again when I get home tonight. I have only had the caption problem on LOTR TT EE. It seems everyone has had that problem.

1salespro
So you are running your unit via DVI I guess?
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post #733 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 09:17 AM
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phansson,
I run my 5900 through DVI and don't have the problem that you have mentioned. Mine stays at 0IRE when the unit is powered off.

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post #734 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Whenever you adjust ANYTHING in the pic adjustment menu, or want to stay in a user defined memory setting, you have to hit enter after you toggle it or it won't stay. So in this case go to the IRE setting and set it to 0 then hit enter on the remote. Then back out and see if it stayed. The 0 IRE also applies to the STD setting as well.

If you are running in DVI, make sure your black level in the DVI settings is in "Normal" not "Enhanced" otherwise you're clipping the below black information.

The macroblocking can be masked if you set your black levels a certain way, but they would be set incorrectly. If your black levels are set properly the artifacts are present with some material. Remember, the artifacts are actually part of the DVDs authoring, the Faroudja setting is just enhancing them exponentially so that they are blatantly obvious, where normally you may not see them at all.

Also, I have noticed that the problem manifests differently on different displays. I hooked up a 5900 recently via DVI to a 50" Panasonic plasma and the artifacts were extremelly bad, making anything just about unwatchable. I am talking huge amounts of blocking and large patches. But the day before I had connected a 5900 via DVI to a friends LCD PJ on a 90" screen and using the same material didn't see anything. The player still had the issues using certain test patterns, but nothing with the material I used on the plasma. This means that certain displays may also enhance the issue on top of what the player is doing.

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post #735 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 10:36 AM
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So this is interesting, now. I posted my experiences with the 5900 and a 50" Panny a while ago here, where I considered my problems with the 5900 to be macroblocking, and to be "pretty bad".

So are we saying now, even with the future firmware update for the 5900, turning off the NR on the Faroudja, and ISF calibration, and AVIA, that we cannot eliminate the artifacts enough to use the 5900 with something like the Panny? Or do we expect a major improvement?

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post #736 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 10:48 AM
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Kris -

You mentioned that the black level in DVI settings should be set to "Normal." Could you elaborate on why this is the case? Subjectively, I seem to get better results with it on "Enchanced."

By the way, I noticed some macroblocking on Terminator 3 when I first got the player, but haven't seen it once since I had my set (Hitachi 51SWX20B) calibrated.

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post #737 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 11:52 AM
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Kris, any word on if the DVI handshake 'fix' will be included. If they do that as well all of the issues that were bugging me will be fixed.

John
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post #738 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Zig

The artifacts went away when I turned off the Faroudja still, they were just more severe then most displays that I've seen when it was on. Hopefully it will work fine when the fix was implemented. The Panasonic may just have its own NR that needs to be disabled, but I'm not sure.

Kevin

Setting the DVI black label to "Enhanced" sets 0 IRE at digital 16 instead of digital 0. Essentially, you shouldn't even be able to get a below black pluge signal if you have the DVI set to "Enhanced", I have verified this with a few different monitors.

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post #739 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 12:20 PM
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Many thanks for the encouraging reply, Kris.

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post #740 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 03:11 PM
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Does anyone know if Denon will be releasing a silver version of the 5900?

The new amps will have a black or silver finish and it would be a shame if the 5900 couldn´t match the silver ones.

Birgir "keyser"
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post #741 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 04:31 PM
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Hey Kris,

Just got home and wanted to update you on the IRE settings on my 5900. If you go into pic.adj and set the IRE to 0.0 and hit enter it stays at 0.0 even if I power it off with the remote or the power button. Now, if you scroll to the left, when you reach the std setting, the picture "seems" brighter(as if you had the 7.5 IRE on)! If you move over to "M1" the picture gets darker. If you move it to "std" the picture gets brighter. Is this a problem with my machine or will your do it? I was thinking that just because it is set to 0.0 IRE in the menu I think that the STD reverts back to the 7.5 IRE. At least on my 5900.

Also if you power the unit off you have to push the Pic.Adj button on the remote. Highlight "M1" and hit the pic.adj button again. Now it is on the darker setting.

I promise I am not crazy. I have a movie in right now and I just checked it. Same thing it has all ways done.
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post #742 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 04:39 PM
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phansson,

Yes I am transferring via DVI.


gandley,

Thanks, I'm going to look for it now. I started one about a month ago but it never caught on.
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post #743 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Setting the DVI black label to "Enhanced" sets 0 IRE at digital 16 instead of digital 0. Essentially, you shouldn't even be able to get a below black pluge signal if you have the DVI set to "Enhanced"
Kris, Can you explain this a little more. The manual sounds like it's saying the opposite. For the DVI Black Level setting, it says,

"NORMAL: Signals are output from the DVI-D terminal w/a digital RGB video level (data range) of 16 (black) to 235 (white).

ENHANCED: Signals are output from the DVI-D terminal w/a digital RGB video level (data range) of 0 (black) to 246 (white)."

It sounds like ENHANCED sets 0 IRE to digital 0, not 16. Am I interpreting this wrong?

I currently have the following settings:

- DVI Black Level = ENHANCED (MODE)
- SETUP LEVEL = 0 IRE (Pic.Adj. SET)
- BLACK LEVEL = 0 (Pic.Adj. Mem)

and I can see the below-black pluge signal in DVE. I don't quite understand how all these settings interact, so further explanation would be great. Thanks.
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post #744 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I know what the manual says, but we haven't seen it that way. Again, every display I've hooked the player to won't pass below black in the DVI "Enhanced".

If you can see it that is fine. I would love to hook it to a scope and find out exactly what it is doing, but unfortunately I can't as the scope we have won't accept DVI. I don't think there is a scope out there that will work with DVI or HDMI, especially with HDCP as a requirement.

As for the STD vs Memory settings, I see the huge change in brightness as well. But the 0 IRE still applies to the STD setting. This I am going to test with the scope and see what happens. It may be a gamma thing, or it may be that Denon found some settings that they felt should be a standard value that are zeroed in the user memories. That makes sense, they would set up some parameters for the average joe who doesn't want to tweak the player. I use one of the memory settings with everything in the 0 position personally. I don't care for enhancements on DVD players personally.

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post #745 of 1111 Old 02-16-2004, 06:58 PM
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Well, Kris the picture output by my IF7200 is horrible if I don't switch it off of the "bright" setting. It has macroblocking, the colors are washed out, the blacks look very, very gray. On the other hand when I switch it back too the "non bright" setting the picture is incredible.

I don't know if it is the IRE setting on the STD or not. It could be something else. I just know the picture is disappointing.
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post #746 of 1111 Old 02-17-2004, 02:24 PM
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Kris, I think we may have crossed posts before. Do you know if the DVI handshake fix will be included in the firmware? Thanks for any info you have on this.

John
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post #747 of 1111 Old 02-17-2004, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
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John

As far as I know, Denon mentioned that they are going to try and include it.

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post #748 of 1111 Old 02-19-2004, 03:25 AM
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Out of interest those with the subtitle popup issue. are these multi region machines?

as its lookin like in the uk its the MR firmware that causes the problem

Dustin
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post #749 of 1111 Old 02-19-2004, 03:53 PM
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I ahve seen it only once and I do not have an MR player.

John
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post #750 of 1111 Old 02-19-2004, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a region free 5900 and I have never seen the subtitle pop up yet.

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