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post #1 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 12:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello Everyone. I am currently in the midst of the benchmark tests and have had a 5900 in my possesion for a few weeks now. I have played close to 40 DVDs since I got it and have had only ONE case of seeing this macroblocking problem I have heard about. The disc was Sinbad. Now I don't want this thread to go into a pros and cons thread or anything. All I ask is people who have seen the macroblocking problem post exactly what title (and chapter if you know) you have seen the problem on. This allows me to see if the problem is repeatable on different players. Thanks!!!

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post #2 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 01:22 PM
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I saw the macro blocking in Indestructable when bruce willis is about to enter the dark bedroom to rescue the two girls and in the swimming pool scene.
I remember that sometimes it doesn't look like macro blocking but more like a blob of distortion and this was not repeatable whith three other dvd players that all have dcdi through my dlp.

I also remember seeing this artifact during a few scenes in Road to Perdition and quite a few other movies that have dark scenes.

Sorry I can;t be more specific but this was over two weeks ago when I brought my 5900 back.
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post #3 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 01:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think this problem is reserved to dark sequences because the majority of the time I saw it in Sinbad was solid patches of colors. It was noticeable in dark areas too, but not limited to.

I have watched plenty of dark films including the new Alien releases, Blade 2, Matrix Reloaded and a few others all with absolutely no problem at all. I just think at this point that certain transfers are tripping up something in the player. I also plan on turning off the Faroudja processing and seeing if that does anything to help.

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post #4 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 01:30 PM
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Try the opening credits of Star Trek Insurrection (try to look past the awful edge enhancement). The credits are fading in against a "macroblocking" black background. It also occurs in several spots during the cloaked building scene a short while later.

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post #5 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 01:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately I don't have insurrection

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post #6 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 03:01 PM
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Kris, How do you turn off the Faroudja processing? Do you just run it in 480p mode???
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post #7 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 03:48 PM
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Sounds to me like the 5900 is just showing what's encoded on the disc. I'll
get "Insurrection" and "Sinbad" tonight and analyze them tomorrow. I'll
try to reproduce the "macroblocking" with my reference decoder.

Kris, can you point me to the frames of interest in "Sinbad"?

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post #8 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 03:57 PM
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What is macroblocking exactly? A very brief description will do if anyone cares to explain.

Is it like pixelation artifacts but bigger blocks instead of the little ones?

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post #9 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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To turn off the Faroujda processing run the player in interlaced mode. This bypasses the chip completely. If you run it in 480P mode your still using it for deinterlacing

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post #10 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Sinbad is apparent throughout almost the entire film but a good example is when Sinbad is in the bubble when he first meets the goddess lady. Look at her hair throughout this entire scene.

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post #11 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ahardt
What is macroblocking exactly? A very brief description will do if anyone cares to explain.

Is it like pixelation artifacts but bigger blocks instead of the little ones?
Yeah, that's sort of what I saw more or less. Imagine an all black crossword puzzle . Now change the level of black randomly on some of the pieces - that is what I saw. I do not have Sinbad and did not observe this on non dark scenes.

Kris, you might look at the opening scenes of the Superbit version of Air Force One. Even after I tweaked the 5900 settings those scenes (up to and including the banquet hall) looked much worse than my PMDT presented. I am not sure if this is related to macroblocking though.

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post #12 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 05:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Geof I will check that one out. I have already talked to Denon about this and they have relayed this info to Japan to look at.

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post #13 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 06:41 PM
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Geof, thanks
for the explanation. I think I have seen this on the faces of obi-wan and anakin in AOTC during the first chase scene/electricity and during HPotter COS during the scenes with lightning- both on HD. I did a HD forum search and others had similar results. It's not in a burst- like pattern like pixelation artifacts- the blocks are bigger and somehow more uniform, yet the blocks of material are confused- switched around- correct me if I am talking about something else.

Anyway, just curious what it meant. Unfortunately, I can add nothing to the topic at hand, except to say it would be nice to be able to afford a 5900, at least to try out :(.

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post #14 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 08:24 PM
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Is the macroblocking seen on the DVD5900's DVI output, its analog outputs or both?

If it's only the DVD5900's DVI output, does anyone also have one of the other DVI capable players (D1, HD931, V880, etc) to see if any of the scenes mentioned also appear to be distorted on those players as well?

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post #15 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dr1394 Sounds to me like the 5900 is just showing what's encoded on the disc. I'll get "Insurrection" and "Sinbad" tonight and analyze them tomorrow. I'll try to reproduce the "macroblocking" with my reference decoder.

Ron
That may be and I'll be interested to hear your results but I do not see this on my PMDT (or a PMDT w/PVP). I also do not see it with a Denon 910.

Thanks for passing this along to Denon Kris. I'll be interested to see if they comment on it.

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post #16 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I am not using the DVI output so it is apparent on the analog section as well. I also tried the scenes from the Sinbad DVD on the Pioneer 563 and didn't notice any of the same problems.

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post #17 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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I just checked out Episode 2 and didn't notice a thing in the bounty hunter chase scene. But I did notice the blocking through most of Unbreakable.

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post #18 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
I don't think this problem is reserved to dark sequences because the majority of the time I saw it in Sinbad was solid patches of colors. It was noticeable in dark areas too, but not limited to.

I have watched plenty of dark films including the new Alien releases, Blade 2, Matrix Reloaded and a few others all with absolutely no problem at all. I just think at this point that certain transfers are tripping up something in the player. I also plan on turning off the Faroudja processing and seeing if that does anything to help.
Well most of us are seeing it in dark scenes only and Aliens does have it on my dlp.

All macroblocking I have seen is in progressive mode but it seems you need a digital display to see the artifacts.

i have tried a Sony 9000,Denon 1600,Samsung 931 and a Phillips 963sa and alll but the Sony have dcdi but no macroblocking or other annoying artifacts.
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post #19 of 1111 Old 11-25-2003, 10:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Aliens has so much compression issues already it would be tough to tell what was the disc and what was the player.

I noticed a lot of the problem in the well lit scenes in Unbreakable as well. I am not denying that it is easy to see in dark scenes, I'm just saying it isn't limited to them.

I told Denon what scenes I have seen that are very apparent with the problem and they are investigating. Again I don't think it is a problem with the Faroudja chip either.

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post #20 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 04:14 AM
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From the very brief time I´ve watched my infocus 5700, I was watching lord of the rings-fotr(PAL-extended version), with my Pioneer 737 DVD player. In the scene when they are walking up the stairs in Moria I noticed somtimes that dark parts of the image had large pixels that made a kinda ticktock 1-2 motion.
I also noticed this artifact on a Toshiba progressive scan CRT TV I had, it wasn´t only on dark patches, but much more noticable on them. I also noticed it on large green areas alot. When this artifact appears it looks AWFULL.
When I get my screen and start using the 5700 I can check out if it´s the dvd player or the projector that´s causing it(and I can check if it´s the Faroudja, if it doesn´t appear when the player sends out 480p).

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post #21 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 08:45 AM
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No doubt you guys have already allowed for this, but just in case....

In the early days of DVD, people everywhere complained about the blockiness of darker scenes with DVD, but it turned out the reason was the brightness level was turned up too high, and so information that would normally have been 'blacker than black' (not intended to be visible) was being seen. Any time you change DVD players, (or change between 0 IRE and 7.5 IRE) it's important to recheck your brightness and contrast/picture settings to make sure they are correct, before serious viewing. Avia and Video Essentials have DVD's on the market that are designed for this (and other home theater setup functions).

If this helps anyone -- great, if not -- sorry to have wasted your time -- Trevor :)
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post #22 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 08:57 AM
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Which is better - tuning the settings(colour, brightness. etc) on the DVD player or the display?

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post #23 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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It is not a setup issue. My display is calibrated to each player I put in it before I look at anything.

It is also not a product of the de-interlacer, I check the same material last night with the Faroujda processing off and it was the same. I think it may be in the MPEG decoder but it is hard to say at this point. Denon is aware and hopefully they'll find something and work it out.

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post #24 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 09:33 AM
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Kris,
The stuff I saw in ST:I did not happen when watching interlaced outputs (either S-Video or Component). Perhaps that disk has a separate issue?

There was an odd behavior noted in the long Denon 5900 thread regarding Video Essentials. There were several grey patches in Title 17 that displayed blockiness – try Chapter 30 and 50 – this only happened on some grey patches so you might want to try them all.

At the time I wrote this problem off as being different from what I saw on ST:I but it might very well be related to what you’re seeing.

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post #25 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 06:20 PM
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Hi all,

I have problem playing Monsters Inc. It is extremely slow. It freeze in the main Menu. Anyone have this problem? Also have problem with two of my four DVD-A. I can see the counter increasing when I play the DVD-A, but I do not get sound/video.

Thanks

Zip,

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post #26 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 06:57 PM
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Is this the artifact of interest?

Ron
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post #27 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 08:04 PM
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Here's a frame from Sinbad.

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post #28 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 08:37 PM
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Yep!

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post #29 of 1111 Old 11-26-2003, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dr1394
Here's a frame from Sinbad.

Ron
That's not what I was thinking of at all. I thought it was more in one large area as opposed to sort of spread all over. You got a great shot of it.

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post #30 of 1111 Old 11-27-2003, 12:48 AM
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The two images I posted were generated with a reference MPEG-2 decoder that
I use at my job (I'm an HD MPEG-2 encoder designer). This software decoder
(that only runs on Sun Solaris OS) has a high accuracy IDCT (double precision
floating point based on the IEEE1180 standard).

What you are seeing is what's encoded on the disc. In the Sinbad image, the
difference between the "light" and "dark" areas in the Goddess' hair is only
1 digital level. The lighter areas are digital 24 and the darker areas are
digital 23.

One thing to keep in mind is that the reference decoder does not do any post
processing. That is, there no "noise reduction" of any kind.

I wonder if there is an NR menu setting that can be turned on or adjusted to
help this issue.

Ron

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