New Integra DPS-10.5 THX Ultra Universal Player. HDMI, iLink - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 695 Old 09-17-2004, 09:32 AM
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Also, were you able to make picture adjustments in the player? When I demoed it, I could change the values, but the image did not change when using HDMI scaled to 720p.

Not a deal-breaker for me because it is so nice.

Dave
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post #92 of 695 Old 09-17-2004, 09:37 AM
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*blatant jealousy* = I'd love to be in a position where I could say $1850 is a "great deal" on anything and feel good about it. */blatant jealousy* :p

In all seriousness, though, I really am looking forward to seeing tests and shootouts involving this unit against the other big hitters out there.

If I had the money, certainly, I'd be fool not to consider this amazing machine. WOW!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #93 of 695 Old 09-17-2004, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dave7
Also, were you able to make picture adjustments in the player? When I demoed it, I could change the values, but the image did not change when using HDMI scaled to 720p.

Not a deal-breaker for me because it is so nice.
This could be a good thing. This means the video stream stays digital. I remember reading here somewhere that "picture adjustments" are usually done in the analog domain - I could be wrong. It may be a pain if you have to have more than one device on a single HDMI/DVI input with only 1 setting allowed on the input.

larry

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post #94 of 695 Old 09-17-2004, 02:13 PM
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No, the picture adjustments in onther upscaling players are done in the digital domain, in the FLI23xx chip, usually. I have a scaler that ofloads some picture adjustments to an FPGA, so as to do them in higher resolution (greater bit depth).

Steve Goff
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post #95 of 695 Old 09-17-2004, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dave7
Also, were you able to make picture adjustments in the player? When I demoed it, I could change the values, but the image did not change when using HDMI scaled to 720p.

Not a deal-breaker for me because it is so nice.
I see the values change then it goes to a blue screen then the picture comes back. I'm not sure if it is changing either as all the settings look about the same...I will have to play with the Runco and see if it is in fact changing resolutions....however, at any of the settings the picture looks very good to me...if there is a difference it is very small...should there be a huge difference?

Phasor
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post #96 of 695 Old 09-17-2004, 09:39 PM
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Pulled the trigger on this player. A few impressions. First off it is a very good looking player, built very well. The tray very quiet and the trey is not your run of the mill hard plastic, it has a rubbery feel too it. So far I've only listened to Dark Side of the Moon in SACD over iLink to my Pioneer 59TXi. The two players recognized each other right away. The Pioneer displays DPS 10.5 on its' display so, so far so good. I know it's over iLink so the sound isn't entirely attributable to the player but hearing DSOTM like this reminded me of the time I first heard a CD, chrystal clear and very involving. I've heard it a few times in this forum but I'll say it anyway, when I heard it I thought, "So this is what high resolution music sounds like." Coming from a Pioneer 563a, this is much better. One feature that I don't think has been mentioned is this player's ability to de-interlace and upscale video feeds from other components, similar to the Yamaha RX-Z9. I'll get some pictures posted over the weekend. I don't have a great TV at the moment so I won't be able to give good testimony on the player's video until I take it to work to A/B it against the Arcam DV79 and the Meridian G91/98. More to come, great player so far, very easy to look at too.
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post #97 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 01:24 AM
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I posted this in the Plasma display forum as well, but thought I should
post here also...

I'm connecting my DPS 10.5 to my Panasonic TH-42PWD6UY EDTV
plasma television via HDMI/DVI cable. I'm seeing what looks like green
video noise running all across the screen, most noticeable in black areas,
like the black bars on letterboxed DVD's. I'm still an HT newbie, so if
anyone has any ideas on what this could be, I'd appreciate the help.

Thanks in advance.
Rick
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post #98 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 01:39 AM
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Also, with the HDMI/DVI connection, the Integra will only
let me select "source" as the resolution, I assume because
the TV is "telling" the Integra it's highest resolution is 480p.

Or am I wrong? Should I be able to override this "handshake"
info and select a higher resolution if I chose to? I want to
experiment with different resolutions and how they impact
(or don't) on PQ. If I can only choose "source" for output
resolution over HDMI with an EDTV, then the Integra is
operating normally. If others are able to select different
resolutions regardless of their TV's native resolution, then
my Integra is messed up somehow.

And then there's the HD Component OUT option. According to
the manual, this will enable variable HD resolutions to be output
here. I've ordered a set of BNC component cables to try this out.
I'm assuming this is a "blind" connection that won't know what
kind of display you're connecting to, so the full range of supported
resolutions should be available. Anyone else tried this stuff out?
Isn't being an early-adopter fun??

Rick
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post #99 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 07:36 AM
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I thought EDTV are Enhanced Definition because they can't display true HD resolutions such as 1080i or 720p. If that's the case then the player is operating normally. Definitley try the component connection and see what happens. Being a troubleshooter for an audio/video install company I can say that some connections can be very finicky in how they are set up. Only time will tell.
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post #100 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 07:37 AM
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Rick,
I replied to your post in the plasma forum. Also, it's interesting that the Integra manual says it will output HD resolutions via component output. I think dave7 mentioned that too. Via component out, there is no "handshaking" protocol being conducted between the 2 devices. So it should do as you tell it. :) And as I mentioned in the plasma forum, you need to calibrate the player with the plasma. Get a copy of Digital Video Essentials if you haven't already.

Steve, thanks for the clarification.

There's an Integra dealer near me, I hope they have a 10.5 that I can take a look at it today.

larry

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post #101 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 09:28 AM
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Isn't there a button on the front that allows you to choose the resolution? It should come up in the display what the resolution is set to. When I demoed, it was set to my resolution, so I did not mess with it.

I also remember a separate sheet in the box explaining the resolution setting specifically.

BTW pooper, I never tried component.

Dave
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post #102 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
*blatant jealousy* = I'd love to be in a position where I could say $1850 is a "great deal" on anything and feel good about it. */blatant jealousy* :p

In all seriousness, though, I really am looking forward to seeing tests and shootouts involving this unit against the other big hitters out there.

If I had the money, certainly, I'd be fool not to consider this amazing machine. WOW!
LOL...it is a lot of money...I have been saving for a year to get a new universal disc player...I was going to get a Denon but this opportunity presented itself first...I am happy with the player...there maybe better, but I haven't seen them. I tried LOTR yesterday and I was very pleased with the picture...the settings say it is at 720P and I believe that is where I will leave it set.

Phasor
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post #103 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 12:59 PM
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Quote:
BTW pooper, I never tried component.
Ok, Dave, thanks. Now that I look, Phasor mentioned scaling over component.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #104 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 01:17 PM
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Denon 5900 also has Burr Brown DAC's I think. Now if they could only fix all the bugs on the 5900, speed up the MENU's, add HDMI output, and be able to play WM9 DVD's, then it would be a hands down winner for me now.

Ozzie
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post #105 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 02:49 PM
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After playing around with my setup this morning, here's some more info
about my "green dots" problem...

I realized that the clearest way to see the problem on my Panny EDTV was to
let the Integra start it's screen saver, which is the white Integra logo floating
around on a black screen. I see an upside-down triangle-shaped array of green
dots laid out in horizontal lines. These dots are laid out in "dash" patterns (i.e.
7 or 8 dots across, then 3 or 4 pixels of black space, then more green dots etc.)
Vertically, there is a single line of these dots, then 4 or 5 pixels of black space,
then another line. This continues down from the top of the screen where they
run all the way across, then they start to converge down to a point about 2/3's
of the way down the screen. The downward "point" of the triangle is off center,
about 1/3 of the way from the right hand edge of the screen. There aren't any
of these dots at the bottom portion of the screen.
The weird part is, when I'm watching a letterboxed DVD, these dots DON'T appear
in the picture area, even during dark or black areas of the picture. They are definitely
noticeable from 6' away. You perceive the dots as a slight flickering in the letterboxed
area. It's distracting.
I think it's definitely some form of interference, either in the Integra, the DVI blade
in the Panny, the cable, or some other source. It's definitely not dithering. I can see
dithering if I'm VERY close to the screen. It's not a problem. I don't think calibration
is the answer.
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post #106 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 03:45 PM
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I got to see the 10.5 today. Good and bad scenario. It was connected to a Pio 910HD plasma via media box in a so-so setting lighting-wise. And they only had 1 DVD to watch. The good part was that I could compare it to a 59avi which I've never seen. Right now I'd say the Integra has the edge in PQ. Tomorrow I'm going back with some of my own DVDs. If it continues to do as well (or better) I'll probably get it. I did get a chance to look at the manual some and I did not get the impression that it will upscale via component. There's two sets of component outputs, RCA and BNC. The manual says "interlaced" for the RCA and "progressive" for the BNC. It also will take composite and s-video inputs as pass-through and send them out component (not sure about HDMI). As others have said, it's an impressive DVD player. I'm not concerned about audio as long as it can send everthing out i.Link.

Rick,
It's easy to tell if it's some sort of calibration issue. Just decrease contrast a click at a time and see if things are better or worse. Then do the same for brightness. I can make my black bars look "greenish" by turning up brightness. The black bars are generated by the DVD player. Strange.

larry

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post #107 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 10:12 PM
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It will send everything out iLink, just make sure Digital Out 1 is on as it is the set-up for iLink as well as the 1st digital out. I've had no problems yet playing several SACD's and DVD-Audio Discs.
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post #108 of 695 Old 09-18-2004, 11:58 PM
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Larry,

Thanks for your first impressions of the 10.5. Hope you'll post a follow-up tomorrow about your second testing.

If you get a chance, check and see if the BNC/component connection does, indeed, upconvert. In one of the threads on this board it was stated that a dealer said the player can upconvert thru component...but maybe he was just blowing smoke.
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post #109 of 695 Old 09-19-2004, 05:30 AM
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Franchot,
I probably won't get a chance to try the BNC output. :( Integra doesn't supply a BNC->RCA cable and I doubt there's one available where I will be going. BNC is not very common in today's consumer electronics. One thing I just thought of wrt the "HD" label on the BNC output. Can non-HD capable TVs accept 480p? I don't remember. :) Also, "upconvert through component" could mean the composite and s-video inputs being "upconverted" to component output.

DynamiteD,
Thanks for the "green light" wrt i.Link.

Even if I get the 10.5 today, I won't be able to do much except 480i video and hi-rez audio "tests" until I get HDMI->DVI and BNC->RCA cables. If they have a HDMI->DVI cable, I'm sure it will be Monster or one similarily priced and I refuse to spend 3x for something for no reason. But if they have one, I will try to get them to throw it in with the deal.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #110 of 695 Old 09-19-2004, 09:36 AM
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I'm going to take my player into work so I can test out what this player can really do. I work at an audio video install company so there are good players to check this one against, Meridian G98/91, Arcam DV79, I even have a Denon 2200 at home to check against. I will find out about this player's upconversion too. Audio as well will be thrown against the Arcam unit in a dedicated Arcam set-up and the Meridian unit in an analog Meridian set up. More details to come. For the record I don't due video calibrations, I troubleshoot systems and program remotes so the comparisons will be on similar equipment with just the source being changed, meaning the DVD/CD player.
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post #111 of 695 Old 09-19-2004, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PooperScooper
Can non-HD capable TVs accept 480p? Also, "upconvert through component" could mean the composite and s-video inputs being "upconverted" to component output. larry
No. (In answer to your question.)

I have a feeling you're right about the component outputs...at least from reading the specifications/literature. It's just strange that one component output is for an interlaced signal while the other is for progressive. Seems like overkill to me.

But who really has a definitive answer yet? The Zenith 318 and LG snuck into the country without any legal ramifications in regard to upconverting over component. (That's changing now, supposedly.) Are the Integra/Onkyo manufactured in the same country as the Zenith/LG?

DynamiteD,

I'll be very interested to read your thoughts about the player. I see you live in Newport Beach (which is pretty close to me.) Where did you get your player? I'm having a heck of time finding someone who can order me one or even knows about it. Thanks.
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post #112 of 695 Old 09-19-2004, 01:53 PM
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After reading the manual *at home* I am 99.99% sure the 10.5 does not upscale out the "HD component" (BNC) output. The manual defines "upconversion" as taking the composite or s-video inputs and "upconverting" the video to component and sending it out the BNC output. The charts and other text only show HD resolutions going out HDMI. No big surprise.

The 10.5 is now nestled in with my other gear. I spent about an hour or so today at the store comparing it with the 59avi into a 43" Pio plasma (via media box) and HDMI. I took my DVE disk and made sure brightness and contrast were set ok on both (good thing I did). Colors can always be tweaked and the Pio looked pretty good, maybe a tad warm for my tastes. I popped in Mars Attacks and verified that the 10.5 does not have the CUE bug (Beginning of Chap 12. Jack Nicholson's red cowboy hat shows the bug real well on my 47ai). I watched the DVE video samples on both players and it looked good on both. I was beginning to wonder if the 10.5 was worth 2x to me over the 59avi. It's tough go back and forth between players and remember how the other looked. But, then I popped in The Fifth Element superbit and started watching some scenes I know very well. The 10.5 seemed very "smooth" and provided a very solid image and I noticed less "noise", for lack of a better word. The scene where it stood out was when they were in the room with the stones at the end. The background walls are very "textured" with color. The 10.5 showed it very solid and definitive. The 59avi displayed it as slightly "noisy" is the best I can describe it. When you look hard, things just are more "stable". It's hard to describe. Same thing at home with my XP30, which is no slouch of a player. At home I'm using a Fujitsu P50 plasma and I'm using the 10.5 at 480i until I get my cable(s). I had a little scare with i.Link. My 49txi didn't "see" the 10.5 and vice versa. I finally went into the 49txi digital input setup and saw that the "DPS 10.5" was configured as "i.Link" and not as a "DVD/LD" player like the entry for my 47ai. Once I fixed the input setup, everything was ok.

I did take the top cover off the player and the only sizeable chip was something from Fujitsu. I didn't remove any boards. Duh. :) The case is bascially "full". You get 27lbs of electronics. :) One thing I noticed also is that you can turn off the video circuit if you are just using audio. There's even a button and indicator light on the front.

I'm happy. :) I need to go order some cables.

larry

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post #113 of 695 Old 09-19-2004, 03:01 PM
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Pooper, thanks for the impressions. Is that one test enough to determine a player does not have the CUE? I heard through the grapevine that the player does in fact the CUE.

BTW, they do sell BNC to RCA converters. Might be a cheaper solution for you and its not likely youll ever need to use a BNC to RCA cable again. :)

John
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post #114 of 695 Old 09-19-2004, 05:28 PM
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John,
There's a "common" CUE bug that is more or less nonexistent in today's new players. The 47ai definitely had this one and the 10.5 does not (at least using the test case that was so obvious on the 47ai). I just looked at the Secrets site and it's the Chroma 3-2 and 2-2 Film tests/bugs. There's two others that are not as common or easy to see in DVDs, IIRC, and it's the Chroma 3-2 Alt flags and 4:2:0 ICP "bugs". The Silicon Image chip has them and that's why the Denon 2200 and 2900 failed the tests. If the 10.5 has the same chip, then it will problaby fail also. No big deal to me. I rarely saw the "common" bug on the 47ai. And, I already ordered new BNC> RCA cables, they were only $50. The BNC->RCA adapters don't preserve the 75ohms of the cable you are attaching them to. They should be avoided.

larry

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post #115 of 695 Old 09-19-2004, 09:44 PM
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Thanks, Larry, for posting your observations about the 10.5. Please continue to do so as the days go on, as I base most of my buying decisions on what people post on these boards (considerate people like yourself who have a lot of intelligent insight)...and I'm just about ready to upgrade again.

Right now I've got my choices narrowed down to two players:
the Denon 3910 or the Onkyo SP1000 (the poor man's Integra).

Glad you're enjoying your new player.
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post #116 of 695 Old 09-19-2004, 09:49 PM
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Actually, it isn't the Silicon Image SIL504 that has such CUE problems, since that it a deinterlacing chip. Rather, these errors are produced by MPEG decoder chips.

Steve Goff
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post #117 of 695 Old 09-20-2004, 04:46 AM
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Steve,
Do you know which decoder the 10.5 uses?

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #118 of 695 Old 09-20-2004, 06:18 AM
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I hate to even mention this, since it's mostly speculation, but looking at the price and just how amazingly stacked this unit is...do you all think the Denon 5910 is going to, more or less, be the equivalent of this?

(In other words, is there any real point waiting for the 5910 in lieu of this monster?)

Just curious...

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #119 of 695 Old 09-20-2004, 09:56 AM
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Sorry, I don't know what decoder is used by the 10.5.

Steve Goff
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post #120 of 695 Old 09-20-2004, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
I hate to even mention this, since it's mostly speculation, but looking at the price and just how amazingly stacked this unit is...do you all think the Denon 5910 is going to, more or less, be the equivalent of this?

(In other words, is there any real point waiting for the 5910 in lieu of this monster?)

Just curious...
Hard to say, Q. The 5910 will be 6 months or so newer, not sure how much when you consider when they were both "designed" and knowing which parts, software, and features would be available to use. I'm sure the 5910 will be a nice unit.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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