New Integra DPS-10.5 THX Ultra Universal Player. HDMI, iLink - Page 7 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 11:36 AM
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So, since just about every other unit seems to have it, regardless of price range, have you all verified that this, too, also has macroblocking?

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post #182 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 12:05 PM
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The MB problems being discussed are Faroudja related. The 10.5 uses Silicon Image and Oplus chips (and unknown MPEG decoder).

larry

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post #183 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 12:06 PM
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Ok, good. Then I guess that thread about FLI vs. SIL...SIL has a nice lead doesn't it?

I think I am going to angle towards an SI chip player. Would someone mind either PMing me or listing here some of the better quality Silicon Image chip based players for me? Universal preferably.

I am going to assume the Pioneer 59avi, this, and the Onkyos are all probably SIL. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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post #184 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PooperScooper
One thing we know is that the 10.5 has BNC for 480p and SP has RCA. 10.5 will upconvert (the *true* meaning of "upconvert" :)) composite and s-video to component 480p. (somebody said HDMI output, but I forget what the manual said). SP does not have this. The 10.5 allows you turn off the video section when using audio. Does the SP do this? Without tearing out boards, it would be hard to tell about the internals.

larry
Larry is correct on the above. And the SP does have HDMI output. (I picked up an overpriced (that's an understatement) Monster HDMI>DVI cable so I could test out the connection to my DVI-only plasma.)

And, yes, you can turn off the video section when using audio.

Actually, I LIKE this player A LOT--the sound is fantastic and the picture quality is nearly as good. (I'm subtracting points because of the blacker than black bug on HDMI.) The player responds quickly to commands, is solidly built, has a very useable remote, and looks high end. If the bug is fixed, I'll REALLY like this player more, despite it's rather high price tag.
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post #185 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 12:24 PM
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Audio wise, on paper at least, this thing looks untouchable, like the King of the Mountain. I notice this thread has focused a lot on the video issues, but I'd really like to read some impressions from you all on what should be a heavenly audio experience. Thanks.

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post #186 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 01:10 PM
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To me, audio from the 10.5 sounds just like my 47ai. But, I use i.Link, so it better sound the same. :)

So, Franchot, I take it you've witnessed the btb bug too?

larry

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post #187 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PooperScooper
To me, audio from the 10.5 sounds just like my 47ai. But, I use i.Link, so it better sound the same. :)

So, Franchot, I take it you've witnessed the btb bug too?

larry
Slightly off topic, would anyone know if the 3910 has the BTB bug as well? I know a few people are in both threads so i m just wondering...

John
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post #188 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 02:30 PM
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I doubt it does have the problem. There's been quite a few 3910 people "reporting in" and one would think somebody would have noticed the bug by now if it existed. I wish I could borrow a 3910 for a day. I'd like to compare it to the 10.5 (via component).

larry

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post #189 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PooperScooper
I doubt it does have the problem. There's been quite a few 3910 people "reporting in" and one would think somebody would have noticed the bug by now if it existed. I wish I could borrow a 3910 for a day. I'd like to compare it to the 10.5 (via component).

larry
I've got one and the more i watch it, i feel like the image is better than the 5900 was (not counting how badly the 5900 displayed the macroblocking bug).

John
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post #190 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 04:22 PM
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I did some back-to-back with the 10.5 and the 3910 at my home. I prefer the 10.5.

Dave
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post #191 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 06:04 PM
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Back to back movie watching, music, all of the above?... (Considering the price difference, it's nice to see that you see a difference...)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #192 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 07:50 PM
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I finally watched a DVD all the way through on the 10.5. I didn't notice any layer change. Where's Kevin?? :)

larry

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post #193 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 08:20 PM
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Lemme guess........"Star Wars":-)
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post #194 of 695 Old 09-24-2004, 11:38 PM
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Q-

back-to-back video...as I mentioned a while ago.

I didn't have much time for audio even though it is equally important to me.

I will be returning my 3910 for a 10.5 as soon as I can get a 10.5. Supply seems short.

Dave
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post #195 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 01:48 AM
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P'Scoop- Cool. :D (I'm lurking.) Turns out one dealer I work with can get me either the Denon or Integra/Onkyo. Still haven't made up my mind yet. :)

Q- Pioneer doesn't use Silicon Image or Faroudja for deinerlacing. It uses some type of "proprietary" solution. See the write-up on Secrets. The deinterlacer that Pioneer uses is not as good as *either* SI or Faroudja...

Also, Integra is to Lexus as Onkyo is to Toyota, if that helps. ;) Same company builds them both. They are just targetting different customers is all with the two different brands. And, Integra Research which has a player coming is also built by Onkyo, but is in an even higher end market. (Linn Unidisk, that X player by Denon, the Meridian player, etc.)

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #196 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 05:36 AM
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FWIW - The way I understand it, the Integra Research RDV 1.1 (the step up from the Integra DPS 10.5) is a sort of collaboration with Apogee and BAT (Balanced Audio Technology). It will have a MSRP of $4K or maybe even $4.5K. Integra Research amps are built by BAT too, so it seems that this kind of "collaboration" is how they try to set the "Integra Research" brand apart from Integra, and Onkyo for that matter.

My feeling is that the Onkyo is the base player for the Integra and Integra Research players, and the latter two have various upgrades that may never show up in the specs. One example is how the extra set of audio outputs are handled differently between the Onkyo and the Integra.

The question for many here (not me since I like using the player's analogue audio outputs) is how the players differ if you use only digital outputs (iLink/HDMI). With an upgraded clock, I would guess that the IR player would sound better, even through iLink. Who knows about the Integra vs Onkyo though.

Dave
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post #197 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dave7
FWIW - The way I understand it, the Integra Research RDV 1.1 (the step up from the Integra DPS 10.5) is a sort of collaboration with Apogee and BAT (Balanced Audio Technology). It will have a MSRP of $4K or maybe even $4.5K. Integra Research amps are built by BAT too, so it seems that this kind of "collaboration" is how they try to set the "Integra Research" brand apart from Integra, and Onkyo for that matter.

My feeling is that the Onkyo is the base player for the Integra and Integra Research players, and the latter two have various upgrades that may never show up in the specs. One example is how the extra set of audio outputs are handled differently between the Onkyo and the Integra.

The question for many here (not me since I like using the player's analogue audio outputs) is how the players differ if you use only digital outputs (iLink/HDMI). With an upgraded clock, I would guess that the IR player would sound better, even through iLink. Who knows about the Integra vs Onkyo though.
I remember reading that iLink is packet based and therefore a jitter-free connection. If thats the case, they i dont think an upgraded clock would effect it. For redbook, its likely you're using the analog outs anyway so an upgraded clock is out of the chain there as well? If you use iLink the only place i see an upgraded clock come into play is with DD/DTS sources. This is going by memory I could be remembering it all wrong.

John
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post #198 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 08:06 AM
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You may be right with the iLink.

However, from what Dan Wright of Modwright told me (when I was talking to him about a modded Denon), a clock upgrade will help the whole machine, both analogue and coax digital out. Something with the way the player must do the internal processing before going analogue. I may have misunderstood him but I don't think so.

Dave
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post #199 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
[b]P'Scoop- Cool. :D (I'm lurking.) Turns out one dealer I work with can get me either the Denon or Integra/Onkyo. Still haven't made up my mind yet. :)
Tough choice. How much are you willing to spend?

Quote:


Q- Pioneer doesn't use Silicon Image or Faroudja for deinerlacing. It uses some type of "proprietary" solution. See the write-up on Secrets. The deinterlacer that Pioneer uses is not as good as *either* SI or Faroudja...


Thanks.

Quote:


Also, Integra is to Lexus as Onkyo is to Toyota, if that helps. ;) Same company builds them both.


I see virtually identical units seperated by a mere $500 on MSRPs. I can't believe the difference is signifigant. I'd be willing to bet in a blind test, you would hear and see virtually no difference whatsoever between the Onkyo and Integra units. I'd save a few hundred bucks + haggling and target for this Onkyo or the Denon 3910 myself. I think the Integra's a bit overpriced, imho. (Even more than the usual, which is: I think this whole market is woefully overpriced.)

Quote:

They are just targetting different customers is all with the two different brands. And, Integra Research which has a player coming is also built by Onkyo, but is in an even higher end market. (Linn Unidisk, that X player by Denon, the Meridian player, etc.)
Right. That's something completely different altogether. ;)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #200 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 09:19 AM
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I just tested both the Onkyo and Integra Universal changers. Both are almost identical except for small variations in the frequency response and such. Exact same components in the video stage though.

The only differences other then the chassis I could find were the Integra's BNC component outputs and seperate DACs for each channel out on the Integra compared to the single multi-channel DAC for the Onkyo. There also appeared to be a bit more filtering on the analog audio section in the Integra.

As for the upcoming IR flagship player, a lot of the components will probably be the the same, but I would expect a different analog stage completely. I also heard that the IR unit will accept video sources IN to take advantage of its internal de-interlacing and scaling which is a pretty cool feature.

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post #201 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 10:03 AM
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Hi Dave,

Glad you spoke with Dan! He is fantastic, and he is very busy these days. ;) Will you be going that route?

I just wanted to post a little info about the clock. It is a very important part as ALL digital elements (processors, ADCs, DACs) in the player or receiver/pre-pro depend on it to "clock" the digital information. If you elect to use the processing and DACs in the player, then the clock in the player is very important. You will then have an analog signal after the D/A conversion in the player, and if using analog passthrough in your receiver/pre-pro, then the clock in the receiver/pre-pro has no effect on that analog signal. BTW FWIW, Gordon's/Alex's website has very good block diagrams of this for the player and receiver.

i.Link is very interesting as it takes the digital signal from your player and sends it through the single cable for processing and D/A conversion in your receiver/pre-pro. Therefore the clock, which inherently has jitter, in the receiver/pre-pro is very important. The clock in the receiver/pre-pro now becomes the master clock for this signal pathway. The digital information is sent from the player and stored in a buffer in the receiving component. The information is then clocked out from this buffer for processing, and DAC. Now comes the interesting part, and that is whether or not i.Link is implemented in such a way so that there is flow control between player and receiver/pre-pro to keep that buffer properly filled and not under or overfilled. This is the problem that manufacturers face in addition to making sure that both components "recognize" each other. Imagine clocking out an empty buffer or sending more digital info from the player to an already full buffer. What happens? Losses in information and drop outs in sound! :eek: This is what I suspect is happening for some who are connecting their Denon players to the Yamaha receivers. So in the end, yes, with i.Link there may be jitterless transmission (but then who would want to use a connection that increases jitter???), but there is still jitter due to the clock in the receiver/pre-pro.

Ken
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post #202 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kmmd
Hi Dave,

Glad you spoke with Dan! He is fantastic, and he is very busy these days. ;) Will you be going that route?

I just wanted to post a little info about the clock. It is a very important part as ALL digital elements (processors, ADCs, DACs) in the player or receiver/pre-pro depend on it to "clock" the digital information. If you elect to use the processing and DACs in the player, then the clock in the player is very important. You will then have an analog signal after the D/A conversion in the player, and if using analog passthrough in your receiver/pre-pro, then the clock in the receiver/pre-pro has no effect on that analog signal. BTW FWIW, Gordon's/Alex's website has very good block diagrams of this for the player and receiver.

i.Link is very interesting as it takes the digital signal from your player and sends it through the single cable for processing and D/A conversion in your receiver/pre-pro. Therefore the clock, which inherently has jitter, in the receiver/pre-pro is very important. The clock in the receiver/pre-pro now becomes the master clock for this signal pathway. The digital information is sent from the player and stored in a buffer in the receiving component. The information is then clocked out from this buffer for processing, and DAC. Now comes the interesting part, and that is whether or not i.Link is implemented in such a way so that there is flow control between player and receiver/pre-pro to keep that buffer properly filled and not under or overfilled. This is the problem that manufacturers face in addition to making sure that both components "recognize" each other. Imagine clocking out an empty buffer or sending more digital info from the player to an already full buffer. What happens? Losses in information and drop outs in sound! :eek: This is what I suspect is happening for some who are connecting their Denon players to the Yamaha receivers. So in the end, yes, with i.Link there may be jitterless transmission (but then who would want to use a connection that increases jitter???), but there is still jitter due to the clock in the receiver/pre-pro.
Thanks for the detailed information. So if someone is using an iLink connection to get all digital audio from a player(DVDs, CDs, SACD, DVDA), an upgraded clock in the player itself won't really have an impact on sound quality. Is that correct? Granted you are now at the mercy of whatever digital circuitry is in the Pre/pro but in terms of the player i wanted to be sure where an upgraded clock comes into play. I have an Anthem D1 and plan on trying iLink when the D1 upgrade becomes available. Thanks again for the info.

John
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post #203 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
I also heard that the IR unit will accept video sources IN to take advantage of its internal de-interlacing and scaling which is a pretty cool feature.
Hey Kris,
Thanks for the info! Glad you finally received these units!
The 10.5 also brings in external video sources for de-interlacing
and scaling. I'm looking forward to running my LD's through it.

Rick
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post #204 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 11:33 AM
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Wow, bunch of fantastic info here. Thanks!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #205 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Expletive:
So if someone is using an iLink connection to get all digital audio from a player(DVDs, CDs, SACD, DVDA), an upgraded clock in the player itself won't really have an impact on sound quality. Is that correct? Granted you are now at the mercy of whatever digital circuitry is in the Pre/pro but in terms of the player i wanted to be sure where an upgraded clock comes into play.
Hi John,

You're welcome for the info. To answer your question, yes you are correct that an upgraded clock in the player is of little benefit when using i.Link. What I believe ends up happening is that the digital info is sent asynchronously to fill the buffer in the pre-pro/receiver. Then the clock in the receiver/pre-pro clocks everything out of the buffer for processing and D/A conversion. Now the question becomes, what if we upgrade the clock in the receiver/pre-pro? Will this decrease overall jitter and thus improve sound quality?

As for i.Link, I agree that it is very convenient to use one cable, but all you are really doing is moving the digital signal to the receiver/pre-pro for processing and final D/A conversion. For some, this is a benefit as you use the processing power of the receiver/pre-pro for bass management and room correction, etc. Some will also benefit from better final DACs in the receiver/pre-pro when compared to those in the player.

But, what if the DACs are actually better in the player and that Bass Management is adequate in the player? Why is it that people state that the i.Link provides them with better overall sound quality? Perhaps there is more to the overall sound of a component than just the DACs themselves. Hmmm...

Ken
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post #206 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kmmd
Hi John,

You're welcome for the info. To answer your question, yes you are correct that an upgraded clock in the player is of little benefit when using i.Link. What I believe ends up happening is that the digital info is sent asynchronously to fill the buffer in the pre-pro/receiver. Then the clock in the receiver/pre-pro clocks everything out of the buffer for processing and D/A conversion. Now the question becomes, what if we upgrade the clock in the receiver/pre-pro? Will this decrease overall jitter and thus improve sound quality?

As for i.Link, I agree that it is very convenient to use one cable, but all you are really doing is moving the digital signal to the receiver/pre-pro for processing and final D/A conversion. For some, this is a benefit as you use the processing power of the receiver/pre-pro for bass management and room correction, etc. Some will also benefit from better final DACs in the receiver/pre-pro when compared to those in the player.

But, what if the DACs are actually better in the player and that Bass Management is adequate in the player? Why is it that people state that the i.Link provides them with better overall sound quality? Perhaps there is more to the overall sound of a component than just the DACs themselves. Hmmm...
Agree 100%. I'll give it a try both ways when i get the iLink upgrade both ways. I think thats the only way you can really tell is to A/B the two methods in your specific configuration becuase the analog stage in your pre/pro is also a 'bottleneck' when you use DACS internal to the player. So it really becomes 2 different equations where one has the DACS/clock in the player and the analog stage in thepre/pro, and the other the DACS pre/pro and any inherent weakness with its clock/circuitry. Either route brings the pre/pro and its inherent strengths and weaknesses directly in play so for each combination you need to test both.

With the D1, it seems as if Anthem has really tried to make it a superior DAC by including the upsampling circuitry and top of the line AKMs. Based on features specs alone, my guess would be that the D1 should hold its own against any digital section in a player available. The integra research is a different beast altogether however since it will retail for $500 less than a D1. (It should be superior). That said youre attaching an almost $5k player to a pre/pro 's analog section that has an entire MSRP of $5k.

I could go on forever, but i gues my point is what kind of preamp processor would justify a $4500 DVD player.

John
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post #207 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 03:04 PM
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Really good point John.

Is there a price ratio relationship between any components? Using a ratio, or percentage, relationship method, what processor would be appropriate for a Linn Unidisk 1.1?

OK - I am really taking it far from the 10.5...sorry.

BTW - has anyone been able to verify the below black issue?

Dave
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post #208 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
BTW - has anyone been able to verify the below black issue?
Integra did. I said that in post a few pages back. I had no doubt, but I've been around here long enough to refrain from speaking in absolutes. :)

Quote:
Why is it that people state that the i.Link provides them with better overall sound quality?
Hmm. I've never seen anybody say that here at AVS. Very few people use i.Link. I don't have 6 spare cables laying around to compare. :) Actually I could try stereo, but I'm too lazy. If I was going to keep the Integra (or if I repurchase if/when the btb bug is fixed) I'd compare it vs i.Link on my 49Txi. The DACs in player vs DACs in pre/pro dilemma is the same as scalers in upscaling DVD players vs scalers in TV/displays. You don't know till you dry.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #209 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 04:12 PM
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You don't know till you dry.
:p

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #210 of 695 Old 09-25-2004, 04:22 PM
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Pooper - aka Larry - is Integra going to address the below black issue in any way?

Dave
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