Denon 3910 Owners Thread - Page 199 - AVS Forum
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post #5941 of 7503 Old 04-16-2006, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yates View Post

I've looked at SMPTE color bars since I've gotten it back. The green tint was pretty noticeable without even test patterns. I'm judging the blacks against my Iscan HD+'s internal test patterns which I assume are fairly accurate (I have no way to know for sure) with the DVI input set to video levels (or whatever the Iscan calls it, can't remember now).

Well, you really should run a brightness/contrast test and calibrate the display before reaching a conclusion about normal/enhanced black being reversed.
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post #5942 of 7503 Old 04-16-2006, 11:07 AM
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That's what SMPTE bars are for. You can set tint, saturation, and brightness with them. Contrast can be tough, although they do have a 100% white box.

I don't think you fully understand the DVI's brightness issue I'm having.

First, they are not reversed. (And if they were, calibrating would certainly not change that) They are both lighter than they should be. Enhanced should be darker than normal. Which it is. However, on mine, enhanced is putting out levels that where the normal setting should be (black at digital 16), while normal is even lighter. Black at 32, maybe? Calibrating the display to compensate with AVIA/DVE would certainly bring the levels to where they should be for viewing, but that's not the point. Video black is defined at the digital level of 16, and that's what you would expect the DVI output of the 3910 at normal to output. That's the display compensating for a problem with the source output. Like if the analog outputs had blacks at 20 IRE. Yes, you could lower the brightness on the display. But again, that don't make it right.

I could change the picture level settings in the 3910 itself. But why? You'd think the default, or the 0 setting should be fairly accurate. And actually I haven't tried this yet. It's possible that the brightness wouldn't go down far enough to fix it. Out of curiousity, I'll give it a shot next time I use it.

The question is, how do I know what digital levels are being output? As I said, I am basing it off the internal test patterns of my Iscan HD+, which have so far proven fairly accurate. Enhanced blacks come the closest to matching the black of it's brightness/contrast pattern. When I simply do a pass through of The DVI signal, the levels don't change, so it appears the Iscan is not screwing with the video levels much. And the black levels of the other Iscan inputs have matched fairly closely to the Iscan's test patterns, including the SDI input, which also uses the digital black level of 16. So I'm more trusting of the Iscan's level's being correct.

And here's another bit of evidence. I believe enhanced blacks should not be passing blacker-than-black. However, with my 3910 set to output enhanced blacks, somehow it's outputing a fine blacker-than-black signal. ????? Becuase the ehnaced blacks are where normal should be.
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post #5943 of 7503 Old 04-16-2006, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yates View Post

That's what SMPTE bars are for. You can set tint, saturation, and brightness with them. Contrast can be tough, although they do have a 100% white box.

I don't think you fully understand the DVI's brightness issue I'm having.

While that may not be completely untrue, I did not take your "I've looked at SMPTE color bars since I've gotten it back." to mean you had made any adjustments to calibrate it since you've gotten it back. If you were implying that as well, I apologize. I do, however, disagree with your using the word "compensate" as that implies something is wrong. It may just be different; indeed, changing video circuittry, as they must've done to fix the BTB issue, would likely result in changes in the outputted signal.

Again, if you've calibrated it since you've got it back, I apologize. If not, then I'm back to my original point that you should do that before thinking that there's a problem.
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post #5944 of 7503 Old 04-16-2006, 01:14 PM
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Ah, I see what you mean. I said "looked at" because I didn't change anything. Everything was fine and the same with my SDI output, which is what I mainly use.

I stand by the word "compensate", because if the DVI output set to normal is outputing a black video level of 32 (just guessing at the number here) instead of 16, wouldn't that be wrong?
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post #5945 of 7503 Old 04-16-2006, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yates View Post

Ah, I see what you mean. I said "looked at" because I didn't change anything. Everything was fine and the same with my SDI output, which is what I mainly use.

I stand by the word "compensate", because if the DVI output set to normal is outputing a black video level of 32 (just guessing at the number here) instead of 16, wouldn't that be wrong?

Well, I don't know. Your previous baseline - it's settings and performance before sending it back - is no longer valid. I'm afraid I know diddly about the iScan, but I think I understand your previous comments now about its internal test patterns. Yes, neither the display nor the iScan have changed, so that combo would perform the same as before. The 3910, however, is "different" and now the display needs to be re-calibrated to the "different" player you now are using.
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post #5946 of 7503 Old 04-16-2006, 08:26 PM
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Actually, I only think the black levels changed from when I had sent it back. I never looked at them that hard. I couldn't get past the green tint. I am pretty sure they weren't as washed out. About 80% sure.

The original point I was just trying to make is that the DVI black level on mine is off. Not necessarily when it happened.

You keep mentioning calibrating the display. If the black levels are being output at 32 from the DVI output, and I calibrate the display to show it properly that's great because that what I should do for proper viewing. But that doesn't change the fact the DVI output is too washed out. Again, if the composite output is too washed out from the standard, and I brought the brightness down on the display, it's not changing the fact that the composite output is not ideal.

I am not completely sure it is wrong though. Just all evidence points to it now. I just got through checking the composite and the SDI (moded deck) outputs on a waveform and vectorscope monitor and they are dead accurate as I thought. Does anyone have any idea how to verify the DVI output?

Pepar, if you wouldn't mind, could you try something? Put your HDMI/DVI black level setting to enhanced. And put in a DVD with a test pattern that has blacker-than-black. Does it display blacker-than-black? If the setting is on normal, does it display blacker-than-black? Mine always displays blacker-than-black. And I don't think that's right. I think I should not be able to discern BTB on the enhanced setting. I am curious if that's an anomoly of my player. Or if that's standard 3910 behaviour.

One more thing, I checked and I can't darken the DVI output with the picture settings. Only lighten it. The default setting of 0 doesn't go lower only higher and therefore brighter.
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post #5947 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 04:01 PM
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The bads~
I can't believe how prominent the (I don't know the term) macroblocking(?) is. I have a 5678w Samsung 1080P 56" etc, and with all settings on the TV to default there is some serious black boxes in the dark areas of movies. I have read about this plenty, but I was lead to believe that this was minimal and not really noticable. My default setting for brightness on the TV is 50, but if I set it to 37, I don't notice the MB anymore. The screen is noticably darker too though. The TV is notably very bright so it doesn't bother me too much having the brightness turned down, and it will make the bulb last longer right? Anyway,
Is there a way to have this fixed?

The goods~
I had arguably the worst DVD player according to a few review sites dv-434 (pioneer), but it's been good to me until I got my Sammy. The difference in picture quality and sound was everything I hoped it would be and more. I don't have the best ear for audio, but I knew I was in for a treat when I popped in my first dvd "Star Wars III" and was immediately blown away at the improved sound quality just from the opening music. I could distinctly hear where the intruments were in the recording.
I'm so happy I did some research on this purchase. Though my MP3's sound better than before, this dvd player has opened my ears/mind to what MP3's lack. At Magnolia I had the salesman show me the difference in sound between the 2910 and 3910. I didn't think I would notice much since the 2910 sounded as good as I thought possible. Then switching to the 3910 the sound enveloped the room more and with more warmth and depth. Once I hooked it up at home I found the same experience, and for once my wife agrees with a purchase!

Also, I notice when switching from 480P/720P/1080i the resolution on my Sammy is pretty much the same. I don't notice much of a difference between them except that 1080i has visible horizontal lines in it (interlaced?). The TV automatically upconverts the signal to 1080P so I'm assuming this is the reason?
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post #5948 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 04:13 PM
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Calibrate the TV using the new 3910.... I have a 3910 and a Toshiba 1080p tv and I see no macroblocking....

It will make your great combination look fantastic.....

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post #5949 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 04:23 PM
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Others have complained about MB with the new Samsung DLPs. Calibration may reduce it, but the only way to eliminate it is with a non-Faroudja player. If you can, return it for a Pioneer 59i or Onkyo SP1000 (or the HD-DVD player just released).
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post #5950 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 04:28 PM
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Thank you, for the input. I'll try the 3910 side calibration, and if that doesn't work then maybe I'll wait until 3930...
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post #5951 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterD View Post

Thank you, for the input. I'll try the 3910 side calibration, and if that doesn't work then maybe I'll wait until 3930...

No MB with that one (Realta instead of Faroudja). Sounds like it's as good as the 5910 at a 3910 price.
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post #5952 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 05:46 PM
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I am trying to connect my 3910 to my 3806 via HDMI 2 and run monitor out (HDMI) to my Mits TV. All I get is a blue screen. I do not even show the setup menu on the tv. When I switch to component via TV input I get the 3910 setup menu.

Currently, this is my configuration. Dish Vip211 HD receiver HDMI out to 3806 HDMI input 1, Monitor HDMI out to Mits 52628 HDMI input 1. Denon 3910 HDMI out to Denon 3806 HDMI input 2.

Denon 3806 HDMI assign as follows:

DBS HDMI 1
DVD HDMI 2

I do have component cables running from the 3910 directly to the MiTS component inputs. Is this causing the problem? I have heard of problems with settop boxes not playing nice with Denon receivers but this is not my problem. My Dish network receiver uses the 3806 as a switch flawlessly. I can not seem to get the 3806 or 3910 to play nice with each other. If I switch to component via TV I get a picture and audio from the 3910 with a noticable green push. Very noticable. Manufacture date of the 3910 is September 2004. I know about the blacker than black problems with the unit and Denon is letting me use this unit on loan until they get me a more recent manufacture date for the player. I bought this about two months ago.

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post #5953 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 06:30 PM
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I have just tried a direct connect via HDMI from 3910 to Mits tv HDMI 2. No signal.

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post #5954 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 06:50 PM
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I assume that you have enabled HDMI on the 3910...?

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post #5955 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 07:12 PM
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At this point I will plead ignorance. How does one do that. I don't find the Denon Manual much help.

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post #5956 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 07:47 PM
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Don,

Did you mean I should push that little button on the remote that said HDMI? Thank you for putting everything into perspective. Denon manuals and I have never been best of friends. Thanks for the nudge.

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post #5957 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfbinet View Post

Don,

Did you mean I should push that little button on the remote that said HDMI? .

Yes. And cycle through the settings on the 3910's display. I don't use HDMI, but I believe after you enable it there, you'll find more setting in MENU.
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post #5958 of 7503 Old 04-17-2006, 11:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfbinet View Post

Don,

Did you mean I should push that little button on the remote that said HDMI? Thank you for putting everything into perspective. Denon manuals and I have never been best of friends. Thanks for the nudge.

Yes ... there are two buttons at the top left of the remote... select and format... under the HDMI/DVI label..... SELECT allows you to select HDMI (RGB or YCbCr) or DVI or OFF... FORMAT allows you to chose the output rez... 1080i/720p/480p...

The 3910 will not output HDMI/DVI and component at the same time.... at least mine will not....

Don
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post #5959 of 7503 Old 04-18-2006, 06:04 AM
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I just bought a Monoprice 5x1 HDMI switcher to switch between my 3910, HD Directv box and my Panasonic AE900. Everything works OK except the 3910's picture alternates between a picture and a blue screen every couple of seconds using either the DVI or the HDMI outputs. Bypassing the switcher shows no problem. All the 3910's output resolutions show this problem.

Does anyone have a Monoprice HDMI switcher working correctly with their 3910?
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post #5960 of 7503 Old 04-18-2006, 06:56 AM
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I don't have the switcher, but I have a DVDO VP30 connected to my Marantz VP-12S2. With a straight run from the 3910 to the Marantz, no issue; With the 3910 connected to the VP30 I get exactly the same symptoms that you report of alternating picture/blue screen.

Sounds like another HDMI h___ story with two manufacturers needing to cooperate to resolve the issue.

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post #5961 of 7503 Old 04-18-2006, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoosterD View Post

The bads~
I can't believe how prominent the (I don't know the term) macroblocking(?) is. I have a 5678w Samsung 1080P 56" etc, and with all settings on the TV to default there is some serious black boxes in the dark areas of movies. I have read about this plenty, but I was lead to believe that this was minimal and not really noticable. My default setting for brightness on the TV is 50, but if I set it to 37, I don't notice the MB anymore.
[/color]

I calibrated the 3910 last night (ire = 0, and enhanced black normal (default was 7.5 and normal)) and set the TV brightness back to default. Problem solved or at least less noticable. I haven't done a lot of testing, but initially I didn't notice any MB. It was originally set to 7.5 and was way too bright.
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post #5962 of 7503 Old 04-18-2006, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkStega View Post

I don't have the switcher, but I have a DVDO VP30 connected to my Marantz VP-12S2. With a straight run from the 3910 to the Marantz, no issue; With the 3910 connected to the VP30 I get exactly the same symptoms that you report of alternating picture/blue screen.

Sounds like another HDMI h___ story with two manufacturers needing to cooperate to resolve the issue.

Greetings,

I have my 3910 connected to a Gefen 4x1 HDMI switcher. No issues what so ever. I also have a Parasound ZHD 5X1 HDMI switcher which I am currently reviewing, and it also has no issues with the Denon.

Neither of you mention how long your cable runs are ( total to include the cable running between the 3910 and switcher/VP30 ).

BTW my display is a Sony VPL-HS51 front projector.


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post #5963 of 7503 Old 04-19-2006, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by placidman View Post

Greetings,

Neither of you mention how long your cable runs are ( total to include the cable running between the 3910 and switcher/VP30 ).

I have a two 3 foot HDMI and DVI to HDMI cables cables for connecting either the HDMI or DVI output to the switcher. I connect the switcher to the projector with a 35 foot Blue Jeans HDMI cable.

Monoprice says they have not heard of any problems like I described so is offering to exchange my switcher for a new one.

I also have an Gefen 2x1 HDMI switcher that also has problems. It only passes 1080i to my AE900. The other resolutions do not pass. The funny thing is it passed all resolutions to my AE500 projector. The Gefen also messed up the audio of the 3910 when I connected the Gefen switcher to 3910's HDMI output so I only used the DVI output. I contacted Gefen and they are saying I need to send the switcher back to them so they can install in firmware that supports 256 bit EDID.

I'm sad to hear the new VP30 has the same problem. Makes me think it is more complicated problem with the 3910 HDCP protocol.

Does anyone have the 3910 HDMI output connected to a 3806 (or other receiver with HDMI switching) and outputting to AE900 projector? Any problems???
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post #5964 of 7503 Old 04-19-2006, 09:51 AM
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Quote:


Neither of you mention how long your cable runs are ( total to include the cable running between the 3910 and switcher/VP30 ).

I run a 1m HDMI-HDMI cable between the 3910 & the VP30; The VP30 is driving a 20M HDMI-HDMI cable and HDMI-DVI adapter to the VP12S2.

The 3910 can drive the 20M run directly, my issue is when I put the VP30 in the chain. My Moto 6412 and HTPC also are HDMI/HDMI 1M and DVI/HDMI 1M to the VP30. They have no issues.

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post #5965 of 7503 Old 04-19-2006, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don1959 View Post

Yes ... there are two buttons at the top left of the remote... select and format... under the HDMI/DVI label..... SELECT allows you to select HDMI (RGB or YCbCr) or DVI or OFF... FORMAT allows you to chose the output rez... 1080i/720p/480p...

The 3910 will not output HDMI/DVI and component at the same time.... at least mine will not....

Don

What is the difference between the 2 HDMI modes and which one is better to use - RGB or YCbCr?
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post #5966 of 7503 Old 04-19-2006, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ivoniko View Post

What is the difference between the 2 HDMI modes and which one is better to use - RGB or YCbCr?

To tell you the truth... I don't really know... I think it has something to do with the colour space used.... any way I use YCbCr and it looks good.... just calibrate using the same as you will watch with......

Don
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post #5967 of 7503 Old 04-20-2006, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yates View Post

Put your HDMI/DVI black level setting to enhanced. And put in a DVD with a test pattern that has blacker-than-black. Does it display blacker-than-black? If the setting is on normal, does it display blacker-than-black? Mine always displays blacker-than-black. And I don't think that's right. I think I should not be able to discern BTB on the enhanced setting. I am curious if that's an anomoly of my player. Or if that's standard 3910 behaviour.

Could somebody try this? I am still wondering whether this is usual for a 3910, or if mine is miscalibrated.

Basically, I'd like to know if when the DVI output set to enhanced, does the 3910 pass a blacker-than-black signal?
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post #5968 of 7503 Old 04-20-2006, 05:37 AM
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Since I have it set to Normal (which is the way it should be set, according to Secrets), I can't tell you. Mine does pass BTB on Normal and 0 IRE, using AVIA for calibration.
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post #5969 of 7503 Old 04-21-2006, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by placidman View Post

Greetings,

I also have a Parasound ZHD 5X1 HDMI switcher which I am currently reviewing, and it also has no issues with the Denon.

Neither of you mention how long your cable runs are ( total to include the cable running between the 3910 and switcher/VP30 ).

BTW my display is a Sony VPL-HS51 front projector.


Regards,

Placidman,

How is your review of the ZHD going? I have the ZHD also and is hooked to my 3910, a HD tivo, and another dvd player (Sony 5 dvd carousel). I have noticed since I hooked up the ZHD, I have occasional dropouts where I see a blue screen for just a second or less. This seems to happen about once or twice during a normal viewing period for me (2 hour movie). I have a dvi-hdmi adaptor hooked to a 5m dvi cable between the switcher and my JVC HX-1 projector.

This never happened when I just used a gefen DVI switcher (although I had other issues with it).
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post #5970 of 7503 Old 04-24-2006, 01:49 PM
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I don't know about Denon players, but their receivers do indicate whether an HDCD disk is being read.
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