Denon 3910 Owners Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 7503 Old 11-09-2004, 05:40 AM
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I've posted a bug with that projector:
http://*******.com/4warh

Bye,
zan.
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post #632 of 7503 Old 11-09-2004, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by michael1957

One thing I am confused by is the SOURCE DIRECT option. Can anyone enlighten me on exactly what it does, and when it should be used?

The manual says setting it to 'on' turns off speaker settings (like 'large' and delay settings I presume?); and also turns off 'channel level processing' (does this just mean it turns off the gain you can set in the speaker setup?).

And what does it mean when it says 'the DTS recommended all-channel, full bandwidth playback'? (p. 41). Does that mean it is recommended to use this if you selects a DTS soundtrack?

Thanks in advance for any info.

This question was asked a few weeks ago, and I couldn't find an answer. I too am confused by p. 41 of the manual (I admit I'm probably in over my head when it comes to the 3910, which I set up last weekend).

The manual says that with Bass Enhancement set to off, the subwoofer will have no output. Is this only for certain discs? Here are the results I got while watching Shrek in Dolby Digital, using the 6 ch. output in all cases(testing with some bass heavy scenes):

Source Direct ON (no bass enhancement by default) - no subwoofer output.
- The manual says that source direct on enables DTS recommended all-channel full bandwith playback. Is this only for certain discs? I certainly was not getting anything out of my sub.

Source Direct OFF, Speakers LARGE, Bass Enhancement OFF - no subwoofer output, even though subwoofer was set to "yes" in speaker configuration

Source Direct ON, Speakers Small, Bass Enhancement OFF or ON - In this setup, I get output from my sub, regardless of the Bass Enhancement setting. Bass Enhancement boosts it, but it is definitely there even without bass enhancement, which seems to conflict with the description of the Bass Enhancement feature on p. 41, although again I can't really figure out what they're talking about.

So I'm sure I'm misinterpreting something, just not sure what. And what would be the preferred (i.e. most accurate) setup for a DD movie?

Any help would be GREATLY appreciated.

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post #633 of 7503 Old 11-09-2004, 08:29 AM
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Hi TJK, I am very confused by that page also so I just tried all of the settings and then listened to the output of a mulitichannel DVD and a movie via toslink. It is very difficult to get the bass at the same output for CDs, DVD movies and multi-channel audio (DVD Audio). I still have to manually turn my Velodyne Sub up when I listen to certain 5.1 concerts on HDTV etc and CDs. This is not a fault of the Denon. The material is so different between all of the formats.

I have found the best resullts by setting my speakers to small (although my Paradigm mini-monitors for surround sound went to large during auto-set of my reciever and they sound so good I don't want to change them) and turning on the +10 SW boost. This is more than enough bass for movies and just right for DVD Audio. I had to set up my reciever also. I did the auto set with a mic and then I had to only tweek the subwoofer volume and distance. I like a lot of bass.

Set your Denon and reciever to what you play the most first. Use your auto setup equipment if your system has any and then use a SPL meter and/or your ears to make final adjustments. You'll be fine.
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post #634 of 7503 Old 11-09-2004, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mary Ann
Hi TJK, I am very confused by that page also so I just tried all of the settings and then listened to the output of a mulitichannel DVD and a movie via toslink. It is very difficult to get the bass at the same output for CDs, DVD movies and multi-channel audio (DVD Audio). I still have to manually turn my Velodyne Sub up when I listen to certain 5.1 concerts on HDTV etc and CDs. This is not a fault of the Denon. The material is so different between all of the formats.

I have found the best resullts by setting my speakers to small (although my Paradigm mini-monitors for surround sound went to large during auto-set of my reciever and they sound so good I don't want to change them) and turning on the +10 SW boost. This is more than enough bass for movies and just right for DVD Audio. I had to set up my reciever also. I did the auto set with a mic and then I had to only tweek the subwoofer volume and distance. I like a lot of bass.

Set your Denon and reciever to what you play the most first. Use your auto setup equipment if your system has any and then use a SPL meter and/or your ears to make final adjustments. You'll be fine.

Thanks Mary Ann. I actually have calibrated everyting with Avia. My receiver is a 3802, a couple of generations old, so I've been using the ext. output of the 3910 rather than the digital output. I've been happy with the results for DD without bass enhancement, having calibrated the ouptut of my sub with it turned off.

My concern is, given the results I've got in the various source direct/bass enhancement modes, is there something wrong with my player, something wrong with Denon's explanations, or something wrong with me?

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post #635 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 11:06 AM
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I just got my 3910 yesterday. I'm using HDMI-HDMI with a Sony KDF-60XS955 LCD RPTV. I have the interface configured to use HDMI Y Cb Cr.

My serial number is really low so I definitely need the firmware update. I noticed halos around the fish in Nemo. But didn't notice that effect on any other titles. I've ordered the CD...

To my eyes, the picture looks best at 1080i. I know this requires more processing by both the 3910 and my TV, but the results are just a little more defined, a little more detailed. At 720p things look a little softer. To me. Anyone else feel this way even though it may be counterintuitive based upon what the deinterlacer is suposed to be doing?

Haven't tried the DVD-A or SACD yet. Hopefully today. Very happy with this player though. Huge upgrade in PQ from the DVD-2900 that it replaced (again IMO).
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post #636 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 11:44 AM
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Philco-

I'm very interested in your continuing impressions of the 3910 with your Sony XS TV. I've been eyeing that TV for a bit and I think I'll pick it up, but I want to make sure that the PQ and performance justify the expense. Have you tried other resolutions?

Jason

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post #637 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 11:45 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by [Europe]Boogiem
I dont know how to solve it - I am hoping for Denon - or more likely the Swedsih retailer to come up with an answer.
I think they know its an issue since they also had one PJ that did not synch with the 3910 in the demo booth.

I hope Denon sharpens up at this point. Or else it might start out as a good story with a lot of good reviews and critics. Albeit it is a good machine but for 1100 Euro uou should get a FLAWLESS machine in my eyes. Ok if you buy a 100 Euro player at the supermarket that is one thing (allthough thoose seem to work better - probably due to less electronics inside).

IF I will get an answer though - I will post it here.

Regards
Boogieman

Boogieman, seems like 3910 got hell of lots of sync issue with your projector and mine.

I actually tried a 2910 on my IF7200 and the result is the same! Still the "1 sec picture appears and goes off again" problem. First I thought the problems lies with my Infocus projector, but upon reading your post I figure out this is a Denon issue.

Currently I am using a 10m DVI cable which have this problem. Yesterday I tried changing the DVI cable to 5m but the problem still persist.

By the way, is your 3910 gold or silver colour? Mine is gold.

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post #638 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 12:03 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by JasonColeman
Philco-

I'm very interested in your continuing impressions of the 3910 with your Sony XS TV. I've been eyeing that TV for a bit and I think I'll pick it up, but I want to make sure that the PQ and performance justify the expense. Have you tried other resolutions?

Jason

Hi Jason -

In addition to the 3910, I have the XS hooked up to a Hughes HR10-250 Tivo. I have the TV configured to display SD broadcasts in 480p and I can watch HD broadcasts in either 720p or 1080i. For some reason, I always prefer the 1080i resolution. The pictures are just more detailed and more 3D to me. I know others have posted contradictory impressions, but with this TV and these eyes, the 1080i just looks better. The SD stuff in 480p is also nice. A big upgrade from what SD looks like in 480i on this set.

So far I have absolutely no complaints with the TV. It has exceeded my expectations, to be honest. It replaced a 61HS10 CRT RPTV... so it took a little getting used to. About ten minutes!

We watched "The Battle of Algiers" last night, which is a new Criterion DVD release from the 1966 film. The grayscale was really wonderful. Very silvery without a hint of green or blue. And this is right out of the box! We switched a few times between 720p and 1080i, but settled on 1080i.

I have the TV setup to use the Pro setting so that I have control over the advanced parameters. I have not calibrated the set (yet), so this is what I ended up with just from eyeing things (I'm sure the test patterns will reveal some big mistakes here...):

Standard Settings (I borrowed the values from the "standard" mode):

Pic: 50
Brightness: 35
Color: 34
Hue: 0
Sharpness: 35
Color Temp: Neutral
Noise Reduction: Off
Mild Mode: Off

Advanced Properties:

Live Color: High
Clear White: On
Detail Enhancement: High
Black Corrector: Low
Gamma Corrector: Low
White Balance: Default values

Let me know if you have any other specific questions and I'll try to answer them.
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post #639 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 12:57 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by JasonColeman
Philco-

I'm very interested in your continuing impressions of the 3910 with your Sony XS TV. I've been eyeing that TV for a bit and I think I'll pick it up, but I want to make sure that the PQ and performance justify the expense. Have you tried other resolutions?

Jason

I hooked up my 3910 to the 55XS and 60XS last night. I have the 60XS on order and wanted to make sure I was doing the right thing. Unfortunately, these were at different locations and I only had component cables.

Bottom line is IMO the 55XS looks pretty good (after some menu adj) but I was hoping for a little more fine detail and an overall sharper picture. I know that this may be a lot to ask for in an LCD. I also felt that the 60XS larger screen was too much of a compromise is PQ compared to the 55XS.

There is no MB in 480P scaled to 788P. Here are some the the DVD's that I reviewed for black levels, MB, deinterlacing, motion artifacts, scaling and most importantly enjoyment:
LOTR TT Chapter 1
SW Ep I Pod race
Finding Nemo - whale scene, deep water scene, etc.
Star Wars New Hope, first 4 chapters
SpiderMan
5th Element Superbit

You definitely want to send it a 480p from the 3910. The Sony's deinterlacer is NO GOOD in comparison.

Bottow line is I am undecided and may just keep my current setup. There are too many compromises in today's choices. DLP = Rainbow Hell although the Optoma Sovereign is awesome otherwise.
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post #640 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 03:28 PM
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What's the difference between the HDMI Y Cb Cr and HDMI RGB output settings? Which one is "better?"

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post #641 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 03:47 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by tjk
What's the difference between the HDMI Y Cb Cr and HDMI RGB output settings? Which one is "better?"

I asked the same question to a friend at Projectiondesign (manufactor) he told me to use RGB.

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post #642 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 03:50 PM
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I asked Kris Deering last night and he told me to use Y Cb Cr if my TV set would handle it. There is also a post buried in the 30-some-odd pages of this thread that mentions that Y Cb Cr contains more data than RGB.
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post #643 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 04:12 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by PhilcoFord
I asked Kris Deering last night and he told me to use Y Cb Cr if my TV set would handle it. There is also a post buried in the 30-some-odd pages of this thread that mentions that Y Cb Cr contains more data than RGB.

Well I did a search and although the question had been asked by someone a while back, there was no answer given.

However, if Kris says to use Y Cb Cr, that is a definitive answer, although I don't understand what you mean (or he means) when you say "if my TV can handle it." Could you (or Kris if you're around) elaborate?

Guess it wasn't such a dumb question after all.

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post #644 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Yes, you can run HDMI out to DVI in. It is done quite commonly these days. The Denon 3910 reportedly has the HDMI/DVI Blacker than Black bug when doing that, however -- NOTE: firmware fix on the way.

That bug aside, HDMI is, by design, backward compatible with DVI. An HDMI/DVI adapter cable or adapter plug literally just switches wires around to the right pins for the different style plug -- there is no active processing going on in the cable or adapter plug. When the source and destination connect, a handshake is performed that tells the HDMI source the display wants to be thought of as DVI. The source then locks into the DVI standard. [HDCP -- copy protection -- compliance is checked at the same time.] The same happens in reverse if you hook a DVI source to an HDMI display.

Keep in mind that DVI does *NOT* include audio signals. So if you want audio to get there as well you will need to run separate audio from the source to the display.

If both source and destination are discovered to be HDMI during this handshake, then there are ALTERNATE standards available which provide higher bit depth and YCbCr format vs. RGB format for the video. The handshake then goes on to select the best bandwidth/format supported at both ends. This is for future expansion since commonly available displays today that include HDMI input don't yet take advantage of any of this -- they use only the DVI standards albeit via the HDMI plug.

The HDMI transmitter and receiver circuits mandated by the HDMI standard have additional electronic equalization which allows for error free connections over longer cables than with DVI to DVI. Presumably that also makes the HDMI circuits a bit more expensive. There is no intended difference in the cables however. You just have to get the right plug at each end.

As far as I can tell, it is *NOT* safe to assume you'll get any advantage of this if you cable HDMI out to DVI in or vice versa. As usual with cabling limits, the specific characteristics of the chips in your particular source and display, cable construction, and sources of interference will all play a role in how long the cable can be before you start to see problems. There may easily be variations within different manufacturing runs of a given model from any vendor, although all will meet a minimum level of compliance with the standard.

As I understand it, DVI cable lengths up to only roughly 10 feet are guaranteed to be safe, but many people have successfully used longer cables, and cable companies will cheerfully sell you longer cables. That is, there's enough safety factor in the standard and in how manufacturers have implemented it to give you a pretty good shot that longer cables will work.

Companies like Gefen sell DVI repeater boxes which pass through a regenerated signal for folks having problems. Make sure you get a box that's intended for Home Theater use (i.e., it passes through HDCP compliance from the display) as opposed to boxes designed for connecting computers to their displays. The Gefen and Dtronics DVI switcher boxes also regenerate the signal. Thus you can use a maximum length cable on either side of them. That is, they act as a repeater as well as a switcher.

----------------------------------------------------

A number of Forum Sponsors here sell HDMI/DVI cables and adapter plugs. You might want to check the Power Buys forum for any deals currently available.

I believe even Monster Cable offers such cables through places like Best Buy.

Be aware that the markup on cables is enormous. Before shopping, be sure to learn the Home Theater enthusiasts pledge: Open your wallet and repeat after me, "Help Yourself!"
--Bob

This is the post I was talking about. Now that I've re-read it, I wonder if he really meant that YCbCr is associated with higher bit depth, or if that referred to something else?
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post #645 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 05:29 PM
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I just noticing then when I ff 2x that the picture on occasion breaks up slightly and does not provide a fluid 2x motion. I realize this maybe anal but I have never seen a dvd player "drop a frame" so to speak in 2x mode.

Does this occur with anyone else?
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post #646 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 07:19 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by mimason
I just noticing then when I ff 2x that the picture on occasion breaks up slightly and does not provide a fluid 2x motion. I realize this maybe anal but I have never seen a dvd player "drop a frame" so to speak in 2x mode.

Does this occur with anyone else?

yep, but i haven't paid to much attention to it, i've been more focused on my audio problem.

should i be worried about the breakup at 2x FF?

cheers
KJ
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post #647 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 10:38 PM
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I just got this player today.

So far, pretty nice. Black level settings were too light compared to my XP50. I don't see a lighter/darker IRE adjustment for component??

One weird quirk: When you FF 2X while playing CDs, it plays sped up "chipmunk" voices! Going to FF 4X is the normal stuttered speed up.

I also upgraded to the new/region-free firmware without a hitch.
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post #648 of 7503 Old 11-10-2004, 11:56 PM
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Can anyone tell me how well this player works with the Sharp 10000 projector? I've noticed one or two people who had problems with this combination, (the guy who started the macro-blocking thread on the 3910). Anyone out there who likes this combo?

Thanks,

MBramer
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post #649 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 06:59 AM
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I like the combination but find the component output better than the DVI. Although the picture is fantastic, I would still like to understand why this is.
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post #650 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 07:07 AM
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Sam there is black level adjustments. go to the picture adjstments and it is the last one after you see m5.
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post #651 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 10:01 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by PhilcoFord
This is the post I was talking about. Now that I've re-read it, I wonder if he really meant that YCbCr is associated with higher bit depth, or if that referred to something else?

Thanks for finding that. Looks like he's saying that the YCbCr is better than the DVI standard of RGB, but most units do not take advantage of it. Fortunately, the 3910 does.

I would still love to hear an explanation of the differences from Kris, if he's out there somewhere.

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post #652 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 10:08 AM
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I apologize if either of these have been covered before - hopefully someone will be kind enough to indulge my ignorance. I have two minor issues and while they don't affect performance, I'm wondering if it's normal:

1. When playing a DTS Audio disc, such as the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" or Alan Parsons "On Air", the left of the display shows CD, not DVD. On the right of the display, the DTS light does not come on, and only the L and R speaker indicators light up. Playback, however, is fine - all 5.1 channels are playing.

DTS movies are fine - the DTS indicator light goes on, the blue DVD light goes on, and all 6 speakers light up on the display.


2. On DVD audio discs, the video signal out of HDMI is lost (I tried Fleetwood Mac's "Rumors"). I don't even get wallpaper when the disc isn't playing (the TV just says searching for signal).

If I switch the TV over to s-video, I get the video feed from the DVD Audio ok. This isn't a terrible issue, as high res video for song lyrics and such isn't a big deal, but I'm wondering why this is the case.

As always, any help is greatly appreciated.

tjk
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post #653 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 10:27 AM
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I will try to answer #2 for sure. If you have the latest firmware for some reason it does not show the menus for the dvd audio. Mine did show them via dvi until i did the upgrade what causes this i do not know but i should conntact denon and see why this is. #1 mine does same thing but the reciver shows its dts and it plays multi channel so not sure why but it works. maybe it does not reconize cds as dts.
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post #654 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 10:33 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by kevinca1
I will try to answer #2 for sure. If you have the latest firmware for some reason it does not show the menus for the dvd audio. Mine did show them via dvi until i did the upgrade what causes this i do not know but i should conntact denon and see whay this is. #1 mine does same thing but the reciver shows its dts and it plays multi channel so not sure why but it works. maybe it does not reconize cds as dts.

Thanks Kevinca. You know, I need to go back to the serial # post and see what my firmware is - seems like I might have a pretty recent version from what you describe. This is in no way a deal breaker - just an inconvenience. And it seems like if Denon is made aware, the lack of video output for DVD audio over HDMI/DVI would be a pretty simple firmware fix. I will ask Denon as well.

As for the DTS CD, yes, when I go digital into my receiver, the receiver (a Denon 3802) shows DTS. It's the 3910 that doesn't display the DTS indicator, although playback through the 6 ch. output is fine. Is a DTS music disc technically a CD, or DVD?? I like the pretty blue DVD light.

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post #655 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by kevinca1
Sam there is black level adjustments. go to the picture adjstments and it is the last one after you see m5.

Kevin, thank you for answering my question. I will try it tonight. What would be the proper setting for 480p component video? 7.5IRE or 0? I am going to have my set re-calibrated in the upcoming weeks.

I also tried a DTS CD yesterday and noticed it didn't light up the DTS logo or speaker indicators. Played perfectly though! Although I am not using DVI/HDMI yet, the "no DVD-A menu" problem does concern me a bit.

My only gripe is with the "Source Direct" setting. I played with it for hours but can't seem to get it quite right. I have 5 large speakers + sub, and want to use the analog-outputs for SACD/DVD-A/DD/DTS. I want no bass management or level controls, only time-delay. When I set Source Direct to ON, I can tweak to get good bass on SACD, but it's typically too much for DVD-A & DTS. When Source Direct is OFF, I have to really lower the LFE channel level on my pre-amp for DVD-A and DTS sources, but SACD sounds fine.

I obviously don't want to boost the bass independantly for every source, something about the Source Direct feature does not seem right to me.
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post #656 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 10:50 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Sam Scamardo
Kevin, thank you for answering my question. I will try it tonight. What would be the proper setting for 480p component video? 7.5IRE or 0? I am going to have my set re-calibrated in the upcoming weeks.

According to Kris Deering and many other posts, 0 is the correct setting.

I also tried a DTS CD yesterday and noticed it didn't light up the DTS logo or speaker indicators. Played perfectly though! Although I am not using DVI/HDMI yet, the "no DVD-A menu" problem does concern me a bit.

I'm concerned, but not too concerned - s-video works fine for DVD Audio menus. I don't really NEED high-def quality DVD Audio menus - it's more of a convenience of having to change inputs on the TV.

My only gripe is with the "Source Direct" setting. I played with it for hours but can't seem to get it quite right. I have 5 large speakers + sub, and want to use the analog-outputs for SACD/DVD-A/DD/DTS. I want no bass management or level controls, only time-delay. When I set Source Direct to ON, I can tweak to get good bass on SACD, but it's typically too much for DVD-A & DTS. When Source Direct is OFF, I have to really lower the LFE channel level on my pre-amp for DVD-A and DTS sources, but SACD sounds fine.

I obviously don't want to boost the bass independantly for every source, something about the Source Direct feature does not seem right to me.


Source direct initially confused the heck out of me also. I believe (others here are way more qualified) that DTS tracks boost subwoofer output, which receivers compensate for. However, using analog output, you need to adjust yourself. I know that's probably not much help, but like I said there are others here more qualified to answer this one.


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post #657 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 10:56 AM
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I am using the componet on mine with the ire at 0. To me and i think a few others the componet looks just as good if not better then dvi so the dvd audio thing is not a big deal but why it does it denon should know about it and may need to fix it for people who want it. i have the source derect on. to me it sounds better,
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post #658 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 05:07 PM
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After selling my Denon A11 (5900 is US) because the awful macroblocking issue, i take 3 dvd players to home for testing:

Pioneer 868
Arcam DV79
Denon 3910

My setup: DLP projector Sim2 HT300 Xtra-H ; Amplifier Denon AVC10SE ; Speakers Sonus Faber Concerto and Gravis sub

DVD Movies in test: Star Wars Episode II ; Gangs of New York ; Lord Rings Two Towers

The connection was allways through HDMI.

First to connect...Pioneer 868

Good picture quality without macroblocking (thank god!), good resolution, but still behind the Denon A11 (5900)

Arcam DV79...Fantastic picture quality, more film like than the Pioneer, excellent colors and very good resolution...and no macroblocking...excellent!

Denon 3910...Excellent Picture, identical to the Arcam...maybe a bit more sharper and resolution...but...Oh No !!!... MACROBLOCKING !!...in all the 3 movies i tested the Macroblocking issue is present!!... AAAARRRRGGGGHHH !!! What a disappointment !!

I will take the Arcam DV79....but short on features...no SACD, only DVD Audio, but excellent in ordinary Redbook CDs (better than the A11!!), and no upscalling to 720p (no problem, because the desinterlacer in the Sim2 is one of the best in the market)

I am very happy with my choice, and now i am going to change the amplifier to the new Arcam AVR300 !!!
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post #659 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 05:15 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by NABCS
Denon 3910...Excellent Picture, identical to the Arcam...maybe a bit more sharper and resolution...but...Oh No !!!... MACROBLOCKING !!...in all the 3 movies i tested the Macroblocking issue is present!!... AAAARRRRGGGGHHH !!! What a disappointment !!


Can you be very specific about where you saw this happen in Episode II? Like which hour, minute, second and chapter/scene?

tjk, thanks for your insight. I'm going to spend more time with Source Direct tonight.
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post #660 of 7503 Old 11-11-2004, 06:18 PM
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I noticed another oddity since making my 3910 region free.

When playing the Superbit "The Fifth Element" R1, you selected the red icon Play Movie from the main menu and are taken to a PG-13 rating screen. What follows is the oddity. Instead of seeing the standard FBI Warning screen, the now-region-free player goes into a warning screen about distribution of the movie only in Hong Kong, et al, and a screen followed by asian characters. Then, off to the movie! I suppose there are certain title scenes on the disc that play dependant on your region setting.

Anyone else experienced something similar?
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