Denon 3910 Owners Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 04:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Kris Deering has a post in another thread that says we should use "normal" black level when using HDMI-HDMI.

I'll ask him to post here also.

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post #92 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 08:27 AM
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I am an audio manic starting a home theater/muti-canals system. I did a few researches and finally decided to build the following system:

Infocus 4805
Da-lite Comopolitan Electrol fabric TBD
Denon 3910 to replace an old Toshiba progressive scan DVD
Anthem AVM 30 or AVM 20
Anthem MCA 30 or MCA 50
ProAc CC2
ProAc Reference 8
Sub TBD
The main left and right will be connected to my current stereo system.

I am currently going through the procurement phase. I will purchase one item every 4-6 weeks. Since it will take me sometimes before I complete the system, I would like to have a good centre sound ASAP. I saw that the Denon 3910 includes a set of 6 analogue outputs and includes DTS decoding and speaker managements. Will I get a good centre sound if I connect a centre channel directly in the centre analog output through a spare integrated amp that I have? I understand that I will have to play with 2 volume knobs (one form my stereo system and one for the centre channel) but will the Denon 3910 perform the proper movie sound decoding? The answer to this question will drive the order in which I will perform the procurement. Do I start with AVM20 or the DVD replacement?

Thanks

Benoit
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post #93 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 10:05 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Cain
Kris Deering has a post in another thread that says we should use "normal" black level when using HDMI-HDMI.

FWIW, using the THX optimizer found on many DVD's like Monster's Inc., you can easily see the difference between the two settings during the video test. Using a HDMI-HDMI connection to a Sammy 5685W display, I could see all shades of gray using "normal", but not the "enhanced" setting so I've switched back to "normal".

btw, both PQ and SQ were simply stunning on Monsters Inc.! I never thought I'd enjoy a DVD that much after being spoiled by high def. programs.
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post #94 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 11:47 AM
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Newb question: Sorry if this somehow was answered previously. I could use a little help determining how best to hook up my 3910 to my display.

I have the dlp4663w that accepts both HDMI/DVI (720 native) Right now, i'm using the dvi connection for my satellite and hooking up the dvd player using component. I'm also using the digital hookup to my receiver and analog as well; as the jury is still out to which sounds better.

Should I stay with component, or should I go digital with either dvi/dvi, hdmi/hdmi, or dvi/hdmi?

If I use HDMI/HDMI to my display, is the sound going to be only sent to my display?

What if I use DVI/HDMI? Positives/negatives, which is more preferred for those who've tried them. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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post #95 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 11:53 AM
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You should go DVI/DVI or HDMI/HDMI at 720p (with the latter, I believe you can still send audio to your receiver). The big disadvantage of DVI/HDMI is that you then get black crush, which you don't get with either DVI/DVI or HDMI/HDMI.
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post #96 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 01:15 PM
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connecting the 3910 to the 4663w? IMO, you should use HDMI-HDMI since you're already using the DVI for the Sat STB.

While you'll be sending uncompressed both audio and video to your display, you can also use a separate digital audio connection such as digital coax from the 3910 to your AV receiver for 5.1 surround sound.

See page 19 of the User manual regarding HDMI audio setups.
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post #97 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 02:21 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by BillP
You should go DVI/DVI or HDMI/HDMI at 720p (with the latter, I believe you can still send audio to your receiver). The big disadvantage of DVI/HDMI is that you then get black crush, which you don't get with either DVI/DVI or HDMI/HDMI.

What are you referring to when you say, "black crush"?

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post #98 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 02:32 PM
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Has anyone here tried a 192 kHz DVD-A disk yet? My 3910 won't play it.

Dave
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post #99 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 02:34 PM
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Black crush refers to not being able to display blacker than black. What this means is that you lose details (ie, shades of gray) in dark scenes. With black crush, for example, there might be a nighttime street scene where everything at the right edge of the screen is lost in dark shadows, whereas without black crush, you may actually see stairs or a door or a black cat that are totally invisible with black crush. Many players suffer from this (all the Samsung upscaling players). With the 3910, there is no black crush when you connect the DVI output to a DVI input, or an HDMI output to an HDMI input. However, black crush occurs when you connect DVI-to-HDMI.
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post #100 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 02:48 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by dave7
Has anyone here tried a 192 kHz DVD-A disk yet? My 3910 won't play it.

I have Linda Rondstadt's "What's New", and both the 5.1 96kHz layer and the 2.0 192kHz layer play just fine on my 3910.

What happens when you try?
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post #101 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 03:00 PM
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It just stops a moment after it shows the title screen. 96 is fine. The disks are good, and played fine on my Lexicon...when I had it.

Dave
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post #102 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 03:17 PM
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on a side not about ghosting, i had tested nemo (scence where 2 fish meet shark) on my samsung HLN467 dlp and it was all around the shark edges at any setting. went to the dealer today, hooked it up to infocus projector (777???) with 3 chips and same thing. then it went on an elite plasma and was present as well. so it might be the movie itself, but try it out tonight and it will piss you off. sorry for breaking the beans on this one.

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post #103 of 7503 Old 09-28-2004, 03:23 PM
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Anthony-

Have you tried a different player on these displays? I saw what you saw using the 3910 on my sharp 10K PJ, but not with the Integra 10.5. Nevertheless, the 10.5 should be better for 2x the pricetag.

Dave
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post #104 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 07:06 AM
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Greetings,

I got my 3910 yesterday and have found the same results. I am running mine via DVI to a Sony HS10 LCD front projector. The " enhanced " black level setting is a definite improvement. I had previuosly had my projector ISF'd, however that was with the Denon 2900, and via the Component in. I will need to have the grayscale recalibrated with the 3910.

I was able to to dial things in using both Avia and DVE. I am not 100% satisfied yet with white level/black level balance, but I am getting there.

Two things I noted relative to the 3910's performance when compared to the 2900. First, noticable layer changes ( once on SW Episode II AOTC, and the other on Episode V TESB ). Secondly, the 3910 is slower when selecting a chapter from the " search " mode via the remote. There is a noticable pause once the chapter is selected. On the 2900 this was immediate, and layer changes were seemless. While neither of these issues is a deal breaker, I am a little annoyed that they exist. I really can't see why a step up player like this would take a step back in these areas.

I tried both SACD and DVD A discs which sounded incredible. I did not try a 192khz disc though. I check into that tonight and post back.

Aside from what I stated above the units strengths are notable and well worth it.

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post #105 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 07:14 AM
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Quote:


Secondly, the 3910 is slower when selecting a chapter from the " search " mode via the remote. There is a noticable pause once the chapter is selected.

I have similar observation on my 3910 as well. I don't have experience with 2900, but I guess there's something more to responsiveness than merely the size of buffer (8MB).
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post #106 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 08:11 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Anthony A.
on a side not about ghosting, i had tested nemo (scence where 2 fish meet shark) on my samsung HLN467 dlp and it was all around the shark edges at any setting. went to the dealer today, hooked it up to infocus projector (777???) with 3 chips and same thing. then it went on an elite plasma and was present as well. so it might be the movie itself, but try it out tonight and it will piss you off. sorry for breaking the beans on this one.

It is annoying.

I have the 3910 and a new Panasonic DLP (50DL54). I see the same artifacts in NEMO...both HDMI and Component. I also see color banding in some of the blue ocean scenes (false contouring). My big question is whether this is a digital display (DLP, plasma, etc.) artifact or the player? I haven't been able to confirm. Sounds like there is some evidence it is the player (dave7 post). Can anyone with a CRT and an "alternate" player confirm?

Impaired Ale
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post #107 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 08:21 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by placidman
Greetings,

Two things I noted relative to the 3910's performance when compared to the 2900. First, noticable layer changes ( once on SW Episode II AOTC, and the other on Episode V TESB ).

On the 2900 this was immediate, and layer changes were seemless. While neither of these issues is a deal breaker, I am a little annoyed that they exist. I really can't see why a step up player like this would take a step back in these areas.

They're a deal breaker for me. I'll stick with my 2900. (Denon, are you listening?)
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post #108 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 08:36 AM
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i checked the 'american history x' scene using my cheap samsung 480p dvd player. what do you know. its gone. i will test the nemo scene tonight. it may well be a dlp/plasma thing. someone else has to confirm this as i don't have that display.

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post #109 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 08:47 AM
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I know we all pick apart every piece of equipment we acquire and I'm just as guilty. Two nights ago I viewed K-PAX on my new DTheater deck and last night I viewed The Last Samurai on the 3910.

There certainly was a drop in viewing image and I would never recognize one for the other but all and all the upscaling to 1080i simply makes it a much more live-able alternative until we get everyday HD media.
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post #110 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 09:09 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by placidman


Two things I noted relative to the 3910's performance when compared to the 2900. First, noticable layer changes ( once on SW Episode II AOTC, and the other on Episode V TESB ). Secondly, the 3910 is slower when selecting a chapter from the " search " mode via the remote. There is a noticable pause once the chapter is selected. On the 2900 this was immediate, and layer changes were seemless. While neither of these issues is a deal breaker, I am a little annoyed that they exist. I really can't see why a step up player like this would take a step back in these areas.



I'm speechless. I was let to believe that the 3910 was supposed to be superior in every conceivable fashion. Is it possible, based on what I've read here from other forumers, that you MIGHT have a defective unit?

If not, that's sad. Not earth shattering, but as awesome the 2900 is, this was supposed to be at least equal if not better. Certainly at this price range, there should be no such thing as a layer change.

That's not a comment against Denon specifically, just in general. I must say, all these Denon threads have certainly opened my eyes. Some for the good, some not so good.

Quote:




Aside from what I stated above the units strengths are notable and well worth it.

Very likely, but honestly, those two issues you mentioned should not be at this price. Well, hell, even the menu and chapter thing I could probably overlook, but if this has a layer change like my Zenith 318 does, at $160, that's really sad.

I can definitely see where a happy 2900 owner probably doesn't have much incentive to upgrade if all this is really true. I may gravitate towards the 2900 myself based on all that I've read here in the forums. (Heh, it's one of several considerations...)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #111 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 11:36 AM
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Greetings,



Quote:


Very likely, but honestly, those two issues you mentioned should not be at this price. Well, hell, even the menu and chapter thing I could probably overlook, but if this has a layer change like my Zenith 318 does, at $160, that's really sad.


I would have to agree. I have not watched an entire film as of yet. I will check into this and post back.


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post #112 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 11:51 AM
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^^ Good deal!

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #113 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 12:08 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Q of BanditZ

I can definitely see where a happy 2900 owner probably doesn't have much incentive to upgrade if all this is really true. I may gravitate towards the 2900 myself based on all that I've read here in the forums. (Heh, it's one of several considerations...) [/b]

Aren't a large percentage of 3910 purchasers (myself included - my unit is due in a week) buying it as much for the audio as the video? Given that, I would think this is not a comparable unit to the 2900 as the DAC's are superior and the bass managment much more advanced in the 3910.

That's not to say video isn't critically important, but I'm not sure why one would buy a Universal player unless they cared deeply about hi-rez audio.

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post #114 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 12:52 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by dingJam
It is annoying.

I have the 3910 and a new Panasonic DLP (50DL54). I see the same artifacts in NEMO...both HDMI and Component. I also see color banding in some of the blue ocean scenes (false contouring). My big question is whether this is a digital display (DLP, plasma, etc.) artifact or the player? I haven't been able to confirm. Sounds like there is some evidence it is the player (dave7 post). Can anyone with a CRT and an "alternate" player confirm?

I've been auditioning the Denon 3910 and I've noticed the ringing and color banding. It's not pleasant. I've been tweaking the controls and I recalibrated my set (it was ISF calibrated last year), but it's still present. Although the picture is sharp, it's nowhere near as good as I thought it would/could be. (Should I even be playing around with the controls for CSS, V-Line, H-Line, Middle & High Frequency, Hue, etc. on the Denon menus? Some changes seem to improve the picture (I'm changing the settings very slightly), but am I adding additional picture information which ultimately introduces more picture "noise?")

I've been rethinking keeping the Onkyo SP-1000, even though the price is nearly twice that of the Denon. I found it produced a more pleasing image than the Denon. I'd use the Onkyo for film-based DVDs and SACD/DVD-A/CD and keep my Zenith 318 to run video-based DVDs.
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post #115 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 01:35 PM
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Hi all you 3910 owners.

I'm probably going to buy one and have a quick question.

Is it possible to output 480i over the HDMI. It does not to seem to indicate it is possible in the manual listing only 480p/720p/1080i, but then there seems to be a seperate selection for progressive/intelace, so I was wondering does that that also apply to HDMI or is it for component only.
Thanks,

Regards,
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post #116 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 01:48 PM
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I haven't read this thread from the beginning, so i don't know if this has already been brought up, but a friend had problems with his 3910 whenever he used it on the DVI output. Component was fine. He was told by Denon tech support to go into the player menue and change the IRE setting from 7 to 0. Apparently some of the first run units went out of the factory without this adjustment having been made.
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post #117 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 02:03 PM
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Pete,

Both of my 3910's came from the factory with black level = 7.5. Correct setting (in most cases) is black level 0 and HDMI/DVI mode normal.

Steve,

No 480i over HDMI. Shame....
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post #118 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 02:51 PM
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Quote:


I've been auditioning the Denon 3910 and I've noticed the ringing and color banding.

This sounds something like one of the problems with the Samsung 931. The way that it "setup" the Faroudja chip caused some unwanted edge enhancement. Displays without pixel structure (CRT) probably don't see this (as much) and may actually make the image look better as long as the "enhancement" is small. Does it happen if you turn off the "pixel magic" or whatever it is called? I'm picking up a 3910 later tonight. I'll be looking for things like this in addtion to the i.Link dropouts.

larry

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post #119 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 03:20 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^

Larry,

You described exactly what I'm seeing--edge enhancement. It's evident to me on my RPTV and plasma. (Actually, it's worse on the RPTV which is connect through component.)

You and I are moving between pretty much the same players (more or less.) I'll be interested to read about your feelings on the Denon 3910 compared to the Integra 10.5.

There is no button/menu to turn off "pixel magic" or whatever you call it. But you did spark an idea in my mind about changing the "enhancements" on my player. Some of these options have negative values. Instead of going in the positive direction, I'll try going in the opposite direction and see if that eradicates the ringing/banding.
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post #120 of 7503 Old 09-29-2004, 03:21 PM
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I'm also speechless.

I'm sitting here listening to the SACD of Pink Floyd 'The Dark Side of the Moon' and am floored with the sound going 'pure direct' to my P-965 Pre/Pro. Actually every SACD I own sounds astonishing....even with the analog (gasp) pre-outs.

Video wise, for the most part I'm happy as a pig in sh*t. Not one obvious layer change after three weeks of ownership. I haven't seen any MB instances with either the NEC HT1000 PJ or the ED Panny plasma displays we own with anything thats been played. I guess we try to actually enjoy a movie rather than sit there looking for the couple second 'issues' that may appear and which may be inherent to faroudja based players. Maybe were ill or something.

I was really sceptical when purchasing this player (video wise) because it was going up against a SDI modded RP91 and scaled via a HOLO3D II HTPC. Boy was I wrong. It sure as hell doesn't beat it, but for all practical purposes it's it's equal and much more family friendly by a long shot. And the 3910 audio wise leaves the RP91 right where it now resides....in it's packaging box.

Maybe I'm in the minority, but at this point (knock on wood) this was worth every full retail dollar I spent on it from Crutchfield.

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