Pioneer 59avi vs Denon dvd-3910 - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 407 Old 12-07-2004, 05:53 PM
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ISF presence: cool. :)

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #362 of 407 Old 12-07-2004, 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
ISF presence: cool. :)
I thought that might please you Kevin!

;)
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post #363 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 12:10 AM
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Apples to apples baby! ;)

(Although personally, the ISF cal will probably help the 3910 and MB more than the Pio.)

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #364 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
Apples to apples baby! ;)

(Although personally, the ISF cal will probably help the 3910 and MB more than the Pio.)
Why would that be?
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post #365 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 04:49 PM
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Why bother.......Buy the 59 AVi and be done. It does my Qualia fine!

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #366 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by thebland
Why bother.......Buy the 59 AVi and be done. It does my Qualia fine!
Why bother? Uh, because I prefer to make up my own mind. If I were to choose my player solely on what people post here, I would own an Onkyo SP1000 by now. But I saw one in person, and noticed video noise. Whether this was the players fault or the TV's fault, I don't know. But the best way to determine what will work best on my system is to actually see them on my system.

And I don't have a Qualia!

;)
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post #367 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 05:53 PM
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Rob- Based on the 3910 threads (with MB), MB *is* improved in the 3910 vs the 5900. And, on a perfectly calibrated display, only specific displays seem to have problems with MB. (I remember Panasonic plasmas.) On incorrectly calibrated displays, MB can be a lot worse. So because the Pioneer doesn't have MB at all, a perfectly calibrated display is more important for the Denon.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #368 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 06:43 PM
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Thanks Kevin, that makes sense.

I have to say I am curious to see if the Denon shows any MB on my system. You can bet that we will all be looking for it. The member who has graciously volunteered to bring his 3910 to my place has indicated that he does notice minor MB on occasion. Since my DLP pj is somewhat prone to this as it is, I am a bit apprehensive about the Denon.
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post #369 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 07:01 PM
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Rob,
Check the Secrets review of the 3910. The Macroblocking Bug on the 3910 shows to different degrees according to the type of cabling and selected resolution. Also, make sure you get a 3910 that has had the important firmware fix applied which corrects for color issues on the DVI output. It was supposed to fix the HDMI to DVI black crush bug on the HDMI output as well, but I'm not sure that's been confirmed.

Also, for what it's worth, my 59avi seems to do a better job at digital 1080i than digital 720p even though the native resolution of my plasma is closer to 720p. That may be due to whatever my plasma (Fujitsu P50 - 30 series) does with those two signals or it may be a significant indication of something important going on in the 59avi scaler.
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post #370 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 07:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Rob,
Check the Secrets review of the 3910. The Macroblocking Bug on the 3910 shows to different degrees according to the type of cabling and selected resolution. Also, make sure you get a 3910 that has had the important firmware fix applied which corrects for color issues on the DVI output. It was supposed to fix the HDMI to DVI black crush bug on the HDMI output as well, but I'm not sure that's been confirmed.

Also, for what it's worth, my 59avi seems to do a better job at digital 1080i than digital 720p even though the native resolution of my plasma is closer to 720p. That may be due to whatever my plasma (Fujitsu P50 - 30 series) does with those two signals or it may be a significant indication of something important going on in the 59avi scaler.
--Bob
Thanks Bob. I did check out the Secrets review. Kris didn't notice any MB at 720p, which is probably the resolution I would use with my DLP. But we will definitely switch between 720p and 1080i to see if we notice any difference.

Seems strange that your Elite is better at 1080i than 720p. Aren't you doing double processing when you go this route (player upscales to 1080i, then the display downconverts to 720p)?

Does the 59avi do 480i over HDMI?
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post #371 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 07:39 PM
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For that matter, does the Denon 3910 do 480i over DVI?
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post #372 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 07:44 PM
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The 59avi DOES do 480i over HDMI (as long as the other end is also HDMI).

The Denon products, as far as I know, do not.

-------------------------------------------

Yes it is odd that the 1080i from the 59avi into my plasma seems to work better, but that really does seem to be the case. I could invent possible reasons for why that might be so, but it's all just guess work.
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post #373 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
The 59avi DOES do 480i over HDMI (as long as the other end is also HDMI).

The Denon products, as far as I know, do not.

--Bob
Does that mean if I use a DVI converter it will not pass 480i?

I guess what I am really getting at is will the 59avi work with the Iscan without the need for an SDI upgrade? My DLP only has DVI inputs (not HDMI)
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post #374 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 08:15 PM
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No, DVI does not support 480i. DVI starts at 480p. [That's the simple answer; there are some hacks for DVI but you won't encounter them.]

That's one of the big reasons that SDI mods to players have been such a hit. SDI is specifically for digital 480i.

The HDMI standard allows 480i, but many manufacturers have apparently decided to disable that option presumabably because of worries about confusing people who try to do the common HDMI to DVI connection.
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post #375 of 407 Old 12-08-2004, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
No, DVI does not support 480i. DVI starts at 480p.
And this too may change in the New Year. There has been talk in the video processor forum of 480i DVI getting some support for those players than can chose DVI 480i output.

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post #376 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 07:38 AM
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DVDO will implement 480i over DVI by the end of december/january in a simple firmware upgrade for the IScan. This will be a KILLER feature.

Josh@DVDO did confirm it:

"I just wanted to update thsoe wondering about 480i over DVI. It looks like it will be addressed after the next software revision. It may be late December or early January before this is released."

And:

"There is no spec for 480i over DVI, hence if you connect a source that is capable of 480i over HDMI to a display with DVI (with an adapter or cable), the display will "tell" the source not to output 480i. We are working on the software that will allow an HDMI source to output 480i to our DVI input and in turn we will deinterlace and scale to the desired output resolution. This is all given that the source is capable of outputting 480i over HDMI."
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post #377 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 08:02 AM
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Well DVDO won't have to test it with that many players, since there aren't many that even enable 480i output over HDMI at this point

But for those few players, I wonder how many do it right in the sense of actually listening to what the display device (or in this case the external scaler) tells them it will accept as opposed to simply turning off 480i despite what the other end tells once when they discover the other end is DVI.

And they need to get other things right if the other end is DVI also -- such as insuring an RGB signal and no audio -- so it could be a tricky hack to implement on DVDO's end. And then as more players add this 480i over HDMI feature there's the question of whether they'll do it the same way the current 3 players do it.

But if anyone is up to the challenge here it is likely to be DVDO.
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post #378 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 08:56 AM
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This could be a big advantage to the 59avi among the players I am considering.

What are the other two players that output 480i over HDMI?

If I use a 59avi and send 480i over HDMI to the Iscan (when they do the firmware upgrade), will I need the HD+ version or will the regular HD version suffice? I'm still trying (slowly) to figure this Iscan stuff out!
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post #379 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 08:59 AM
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I understand that Aracam and Meridian also have players that pass 480i over HDMI.
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post #380 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
I understand that Aracam and Meridian also have players that pass 480i over HDMI.
--Bob
That is my understanding as well, and supposedly so does the low cost Sony S975.

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post #381 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 09:52 AM
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I hope people here understand that you don't need to SDI modify a player that is able to pass 480i over a digital connection like HDMI.

So you save $$$ on 2 sides: no need to SDI mod a player, and no need to buy the SDI module for the IScan.

So you have to SDI modify a SP1000 or a Denon 3910, but NOT a 59avi, Arcam or Meridian player. But you have the same results at the end.

This is MAJOR for the 59avi, because you can then bypass the weaker Pioneer deinterlacing solution.
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post #382 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Tomlin

If I use a 59avi and send 480i over HDMI to the Iscan (when they do the firmware upgrade), will I need the HD+ version or will the regular HD version suffice? I'm still trying (slowly) to figure this Iscan stuff out!

You will need the HD+
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post #383 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
Why bother? Uh, because I prefer to make up my own mind. If I were to choose my player solely on what people post here, I would own an Onkyo SP1000 by now. But I saw one in person, and noticed video noise. Whether this was the players fault or the TV's fault, I don't know. But the best way to determine what will work best on my system is to actually see them on my system.

And I don't have a Qualia!

;)
Why do you assume that the noise source was either the player or the TVs fault?
Performing an accurate assessment of high end players can be quite difficult in practice as there are many factors involved.

One issue is for certain: it can easily be determined that the Denon's use of only 8 bit pixel processing will result in a coarse and noisy picture.
However , if you use a common DLP display with its own noise generation (smooth scan/dithering) techniques (because the mirrors cannot physically switch fast enough) then again these problems can be masked.
However again, if you live in an rich RFI polluted environment (which includes almost everywhere these days) then again these problems can easily be masked.

So which noise generators do you plan to "make up your own mind" (really post) on?
Or have you thought through the necessary steps to minimize them? Remember a system is only as good as its weakest link.
Hopefully you guys have the skills and knowledge to an assemble a system of sufficient quality to make a meaningful high end comparison.
Enjoy!:):)
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post #384 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 11:45 AM
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Add the new Lumagen scalers to the list of scalers that will accept 480i from HDMI via DVI in. They have confirmed it will be included shortly in a firmware release.

John
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post #385 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by reincarnate
Why do you assume that the noise source was either the player or the TVs fault?
Performing an accurate assessment of high end players can be quite difficult in practice as there are many factors involved.

One issue is for certain: it can easily be determined that the Denon's use of only 8 bit pixel processing will result in a coarse and noisy picture.
However , if you use a common DLP display with its own noise generation (smooth scan/dithering) techniques (because the mirrors cannot physically switch fast enough) then again these problems can be masked.
However again, if you live in an rich RFI polluted environment (which includes almost everywhere these days) then again these problems can easily be masked.

So which noise generators do you plan to "make up your own mind" (really post) on?
Or have you thought through the necessary steps to minimize them? Remember a system is only as good as its weakest link.
Hopefully you guys have the skills and knowledge to an assemble a system of sufficient quality to make a meaningful high end comparison.
Enjoy!:):)
Oh boy. At least you didn't read too much into my post! :rolleyes:

Perhaps I should have said I don't know if it was the player, the TV ETC. that was causing the noise!

Given your points, do you not agree with the only point that I was trying to make in my post, which is that the best way to determine the best player for your particular system is to actually see it displayed on that system?

As far as whether we "have the skills and knowledge to an assemble a system of sufficient quality to make a meaningful high end comparison" all I can tell you is that my ISF tech will be present and setting up the various players etc. That's good enough for me.
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post #386 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 06:22 PM
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Rob,
Once you start posting scientific evaluations of players you will be subject to all sorts of second guessing:

What sort of power line conditioners are you using? Are your power cords reference quality? What color is your viewing room painted? Is the ambient lighting balanced to 6,500K? Which VERSION of any given movie on DVD did you choose to use? Is the evaluation done with popcorn that is buttered or unbuttered?

Kris and friends over at Secrets of Home Theater can tell you that no matter how careful you are, somone is bound to think of something important that you forgot, or were simply unable, to control and thus your results are less than useful.

Well the reality is that ALL such comparison testing is useful. Do your best to describe what you have controlled and what you have not been able to control. Be honest. Be objective. Try to grasp what it is you are really testing (e.g., image quality on an HDMI hookup says nothing about audio quality or even image quality from analog video output DACs). Understand the different roles of something measureable versus something that simply appeals to you.

Don't get discouraged about your inability to satisfy everyone or even answer reasonable questions from everyone. It's all grist for the mill. What you are trying to accomplish will be downright useful to many and additional information for others.

But as soon as you post results, be prepared that many people will have suggestions on ways you could have done it better.
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post #387 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
What sort of power line conditioners are you using? Are your power cords reference quality? What color is your viewing room painted? Is the ambient lighting balanced to 6,500K? Which VERSION of any given movie on DVD did you choose to use? Is the evaluation done with popcorn that is buttered or unbuttered?
Excellent post.

Butter popcorn here of course. However, it is microwave popped rather than popped in a theater accessory popper. So I have to admit to being an amateur HT reviewer. :D

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post #388 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 06:47 PM
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It's the oil, my friend. It's all in the oil....
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post #389 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Rob,
Once you start posting scientific evaluations of players you will be subject to all sorts of second guessing:

What sort of power line conditioners are you using? Are your power cords reference quality? What color is your viewing room painted? Is the ambient lighting balanced to 6,500K? Which VERSION of any given movie on DVD did you choose to use? Is the evaluation done with popcorn that is buttered or unbuttered?

Kris and friends over at Secrets of Home Theater can tell you that no matter how careful you are, somone is bound to think of something important that you forgot, or were simply unable, to control and thus your results are less than useful.

Well the reality is that ALL such comparison testing is useful. Do your best to describe what you have controlled and what you have not been able to control. Be honest. Be objective. Try to grasp what it is you are really testing (e.g., image quality on an HDMI hookup says nothing about audio quality or even image quality from analog video output DACs). Understand the different roles of something measureable versus something that simply appeals to you.

Don't get discouraged about your inability to satisfy everyone or even answer reasonable questions from everyone. It's all grist for the mill. What you are trying to accomplish will be downright useful to many and additional information for others.

But as soon as you post results, be prepared that many people will have suggestions on ways you could have done it better.
--Bob
Great post Bob (as usual).

You have been quite helpful in answering many of my questions regarding a new universal DVI/HDMI player and the iScan. I appreciate it, as I'm sure many others do as well. Keep it up!

:)
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post #390 of 407 Old 12-09-2004, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Rob,
Once you start posting scientific evaluations of players you will be subject to all sorts of second guessing:

[remaining snipped]
--Bob
Thanks for a good post.

BTW, try Papa John's garlic oil on popcorn. :D
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