Pioneer 59avi vs Denon dvd-3910 - Page 14 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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DVD Players (Standard Def) > Pioneer 59avi vs Denon dvd-3910
Kevin C Brown's Avatar Kevin C Brown 12:50 AM 12-10-2004
I have found that a nice ale aids in equipment selection decisions! ;)
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Digital Puppy's Avatar Digital Puppy 01:58 AM 12-10-2004
You guys are starting to make me have buyers remorse - on the popcorn method that I use for my home theater! Must go back to the archives and do some more research!!!

Darn you guys!
mskreis's Avatar mskreis 09:32 AM 12-12-2004
One point that has been made many times is the importance of the display. Many favorable comments come from users with very high end displays. I have an 8700+ and a Bravo D1, which continues to be very problematic (the D1). I'm very pleased with the 720p image over DVI but am tired of all the D1 glitches. I would like a better, more reliable player and am considering the 59avi. I know it would be much more reliable but will I see an improvement in the picture on my Benq?
Rob Tomlin's Avatar Rob Tomlin 09:49 AM 12-12-2004
My Bravo D1 took a dump one month after the warranty expired, otherwise I would have made it part of the shootout with the Denon, Pioneer and Onkyo.
Expletive's Avatar Expletive 01:41 PM 12-13-2004
I've got a 59avi and a 3910 in my possession now if anyone would like me to try anything. Ive got them hooked up to an optoma H77 through a Lumagen HDP. I'll be doing some 480i comparisons over component and 480p over HDMI/DVI for sure, other than that i'm open to suggestions.

John
mskreis's Avatar mskreis 03:57 PM 12-13-2004
Expletive, our projectors are similar as they both use the HD2+ chip. Any way you can get a Bravo D1 or Momitsu to compare to the 3910 and 59avi?
steviec's Avatar steviec 05:00 PM 12-13-2004
Kris, Please respond...Is the 480i hdmi output from a Pioneer 59avi the same as a 480i sdi output from a Denon 5900 or 3910 ? thanks!
Rob Tomlin's Avatar Rob Tomlin 05:15 PM 12-13-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by Expletive
I've got a 59avi and a 3910 in my possession now if anyone would like me to try anything. Ive got them hooked up to an optoma H77 through a Lumagen HDP. I'll be doing some 480i comparisons over component and 480p over HDMI/DVI for sure, other than that i'm open to suggestions.

John
Is that pj's native resolution 720p?

If so, I would certainly do the majority of comparison at 720p via HDMI. Look for any differences in noise, sharpness, clarity, edge enhancement etc. and let us know what you find!

Thanks!
thebland's Avatar thebland 05:16 PM 12-13-2004
HDMI does YCbCr 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 with up to 12bit color component precision. SDI outputs YCbCr 4:2:0 from the MPEG decoder.
steviec's Avatar steviec 05:26 PM 12-13-2004
So Jeff what you are saying is that 480i over hdmi is superior to any sdi output?
Kir's Avatar Kir 06:34 PM 12-13-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by steviec
So Jeff what you are saying is that 480i over hdmi is superior to any sdi output?
I think he's saying that SDI is a direct output from MPEG decoder, while HDMI through some post-processing.
<When did I become an interpreter?> ;)
PooperScooper's Avatar PooperScooper 07:05 PM 12-13-2004
I first thought that SDI output YCrCr 4:2:0, but then after reading the Secrets article on the "Chroma Upsampling Error" which can happen when the MPEG decoder is upsampling to make YCbCr 4:2:0 into YCbCr 4:2:2. So now I believe that SDI outputs 4:2:2 which is what comes out of the MPEG decoder. Interesting reading and easy to understand: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...ug-4-2001.html So, HDMI YCbCr 480i and SDI output should be the same data. With HDMI you may get a choice of YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. The MPEG decoder will only output one or the other for SDI.

larry
Krobar's Avatar Krobar 07:07 PM 12-13-2004
AFAIK HDMI should can be identical to SDI. The problem is it can also not be, correct me if im wrong but dont most HDMI solutions currently output 4:4:4. which would make them inferior to SDI for DVD use.

An HDMI projector does have an advantage if implemented correctly, some dvd players have 10 or 12 bit mpeg decoders, if the HDMI output uses the same 10 or 12 bit YCbCr ouput then it could manage a tiny improvement in colour over SDI (Most current digital displays cannot display more than 8bit colour though).

SDI has longer cable lengths and no HDCP though so if cost is no issue I'd go SDI every time for DVD use.
steviec's Avatar steviec 07:12 PM 12-13-2004
Krobar that is what I thought.
So sdi is still the preferred way to input 480i into a scaler until we are sure of what exactly the hdmi of a particular player is outputting.
PooperScooper's Avatar PooperScooper 07:14 PM 12-13-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by Krobar
AFAIK HDMI should can be identical to SDI. The problem is it can also not be, correct me if im wrong but dont most HDMI solutions currently output 4:4:4. which would make them inferior to SDI for DVD use.

An HDMI projector does have an advantage if implemented correctly, some dvd players have 10 or 12 bit mpeg decoders, if the HDMI output uses the same 10 or 12 bit YCbCr ouput then it could manage a tiny improvement in colour over SDI (Most current digital displays cannot display more than 8bit colour though).

SDI has longer cable lengths and no HDCP though so if cost is no issue I'd go SDI every time for DVD use.
The data on the DVD is 8bit YCbCr 4:2:0. The MPEG decoder will upsample into 8bit YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. You may be thinking of video DACs that upsample using 10, 12, and now 14bits at 216Mhz(?). This is for analog output. HDMI can transmit YCbCr 4:2:2 and YCbCr 4:4:4 with 8, 10, or 12bit color components.

larry
Expletive's Avatar Expletive 02:37 AM 12-14-2004
Quote:
Originally posted by mskreis
Expletive, our projectors are similar as they both use the HD2+ chip. Any way you can get a Bravo D1 or Momitsu to compare to the 3910 and 59avi?
Nope, sorry.

John
Krobar's Avatar Krobar 11:56 AM 12-14-2004
I thought MPEG decoders often ran at 10/12bit to avoid rounding errors, by using a 12bit transfer you would avoid reintroducing those errors. Af far as I remember with the right SDI mod you connect 10 data wires to give 10 bit, the problem is that all consumer video processors only accept an 8bit SDI signal.

Edit : Tidied up 10bit SDI info and heres proof of 10bit output from the Denon 5900 Decoder:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...157&fullpage=1
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