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audioNeil's Avatar audioNeil 10:49 AM 10-30-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by coreymd

audioNeil,
In my experience, the one Superbit title I've seen, Bram Stoker's Dracula, was very grainy on my old RP-56 using component (never watched it on my Samsung 931). I've never tried another Superbit title as a result, so I don't know if it was an isolated event. Are you using DVI or component? I haven't noticed any more film grain than before I got the 2910 (Star Wars Ep IV comes to mind), but I can look at Dracula again this weekend. Have you tried changing the video modes (from auto to film... etc.)?

-Corey

I've watched 3 superbit titles now, and while they are clear, this is at the expense of extra video noise. I watched "Garfield" last night with my kids. While the picture was softer than a superbit title, there was barely any hint of grain. I guess it's all in how it's transferred.

I'm very happy with the video from this player. I suspect that some round-off errors in the MPEG decoding is giving us these colored splotches. However, as long as the filters prevent us from seeing it as a macroblocking issue, I'm okay with that. I've seen macroblocking on my cheap Panasonic RP56, and it's not pretty. I've maybe seen 2 seens with splotches so far in the blacks, and it hasn't been bad.

Neil

Kevin Johnson's Avatar Kevin Johnson 06:39 PM 10-30-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by audioNeil
I've watched 3 superbit titles now, and while they are clear, this is at the expense of extra video noise. I watched "Garfield" last night with my kids. While the picture was softer than a superbit title, there was barely any hint of grain. I guess it's all in how it's transferred.

Neil

Yeah, some of the superbit transfers show the film grain quite a bit. But The Fifth Element is stellar and one of my favorite references.
ndahbar's Avatar ndahbar 08:01 PM 10-30-2004
Ok,

Today I watched Finding Nemo in its entirety, on my DLP set. Using my DVD-1910.

The *ONLY* scene were I noticed macroblocking was the one where the goggles fall off the speeding boat into the water, and they submerge. It's the scene right after Nemo is picked up by the human and he gets in the boat and speeds off, only to have his goggles fall off the edge and into the water.

As they submerge, you see the ocean deeper and deeper...and the various shades of dark blue. There, I saw macroblocking. But it wasn't THAT bad.

I couldn't find it anywhere else. Nor could I see ANY green tint/push.

WTF? How can this be, if everyone else sees otherwise.
HTBruceM's Avatar HTBruceM 01:06 AM 10-31-2004
Well, due to Halloween and all, we had to watch Nightmare Before Christmas. This movie is pretty dark, and some macroblocking was present on the 2910 in some of the darker areas. Still, it was barely noticable; I had to actually LOOK for it; my wife didn't see it at all until I showed her where to look.
CarlosC's Avatar CarlosC 08:18 AM 10-31-2004
ndahbar,

"Finding Nemo" (and probably anything from Pixar for that matter), are not the best choices when trying to see macroblocking effects or the green tinted blacks on the 1910. Try any of these DVD's:

"Van Helsing"
"Day After Tommorow"
"Underworld"
ZZtop's Avatar ZZtop 10:35 AM 10-31-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by ndahbar
Ok,

Today I watched Finding Nemo in its entirety, on my DLP set. Using my DVD-1910.

The *ONLY* scene were I noticed macroblocking was the one where the goggles fall off the speeding boat into the water, and they submerge. It's the scene right after Nemo is picked up by the human and he gets in the boat and speeds off, only to have his goggles fall off the edge and into the water.

As they submerge, you see the ocean deeper and deeper...and the various shades of dark blue. There, I saw macroblocking. But it wasn't THAT bad.

I couldn't find it anywhere else. Nor could I see ANY green tint/push.

WTF? How can this be, if everyone else sees otherwise.

Cartoon/animation movies are not really a good way at all to spot the macroblocking.

All the BM stores I have been in-- Circuit City, or Best Buy, Tweeter, Good Guys , HiFi Buys, they all have cartoon movies on the upscaling dvd players running on the plasmas for demos.

The reason they do this is so the issues of macroblocking or true blacks being passed are not shown AND its very easy to upscale most of the cartoon type movies as there is not as much fine detail in most cases.

When I asked, several employees in some of these BM stores said it was policy or a memo suggesting the material for the reasons above.
ndahbar's Avatar ndahbar 12:04 PM 10-31-2004
I just got Day After Tomorrow, I'll check it out tonight.
krisjon's Avatar krisjon 12:42 PM 10-31-2004
Using my new 2910 via HDMI to my Mitsubishi WD-62525 I get severe color banding, noise, and macroblocking on every DVD I play (to include superbit and other "reference" titles). I've used the Avia disc to make adjustments, but I can't get the banding to go away. Going from HDMI Y/Cr/Cb and HDMI RGB has no effect and component looks the same as well.

Since no one else has brought this up yet, I assume there's something peculiar about my setup. Any suggestions?
jazzcat's Avatar jazzcat 02:33 PM 10-31-2004
I had my 50" Samsung DLP ISF'ed (DVI and Component) on Friday and he really dialed it in! Movies look just spectacular. Coupled with the audio improvement in DVD-A over the RP82 (the wife even noticed), and great SACD performance, the 2910 is a keeper here.
JeffZX9R's Avatar JeffZX9R 03:25 PM 10-31-2004
krisjon,
I have a 2910 connected via 720 HDMI to a Mits 52525 right now. I've only watched a few movies so far and hadn't noticed anything peculiar like that. Give me a movie title and scene you'd like to compare and I'll see if I can help you out. My 2910 setup is pretty much default right now video wise.

Jeff
krisjon's Avatar krisjon 05:00 PM 10-31-2004
Well, I've noticed it with every movie I've tried. Here's a few to look at:

- The Abyss: The opening scene is almost too bad to watch. Just bands of blue and noise inbetween.
- X2 : When they first meet up with Nightcrawler in the church
- Panic Room : First scene when they're showing the empty apartment
- Matrix Revolutions : The backgrounds of the ship in the first scene, also the lights outside the ship
- Star Wars III: Attack of the Clones : The pan from space into the planet at the beginning (heck even the THX demo before that), also watch the reflective ship
- The Fifth Element: Initial space scenes and inside the pyramids

It's so noticable, you just have to put in any disc and wait for a scene with a gradual light/dark or color change and you'll see it. It almost looks like a computer trying to display the image without enough colors (ie 8 bit instead of 32 bit). I've checked and double checked my settings even going to defaults both on the 2910 and the 62525 and no dice. I've tried both black levels (0 and 7.5) on the player and the extreme ends of bightness, sharpness, and contrast.

This is so bad, I know if anyone else on this forum saw it, they'd be screaming bloody murder. And for the record I'm using the 6ft "High End" HDMI cable from Ram.

Thanks for the help.
jigesh's Avatar jigesh 05:16 PM 10-31-2004
krisjon,

I don't know if what you see is "chroma spread issue on (PAL and) HDMI." If it's so, Denon can send you a fix (updated firmware CD) if you contact them. The affected units are with serial number xxxxxx2599 and lower (black); and xxxxxx0399 and lower (silver).

Alternatively, try another 2910 if you can; and see for the same problem.
krisjon's Avatar krisjon 05:30 PM 10-31-2004
Thanks, my serial number is xxxx01776, so hopefully a new firmware will fix it. I guess I'll try the region free version.

Thanks again, this really wasn't what I was expecting from a $600 player
jigesh's Avatar jigesh 06:17 PM 10-31-2004
Quote:


I'll try the region free version.

Is that the most recent version?

After Denon's firmware update, the new firmware becomes ESS-6720-4, and the Make Day becomes 831.

To know firmware version:

1. Turn off the small power button from the front panel.

2. Hold down PLAY and OPEN/CLOSE buttons - both simultaneously.

3. Turn the power back on using that small power button on the front panel. Continue holding buttons as in 2 above for three/four seconds.

4. After "LOADING...." shows on the display, press from your remote 3, 2, 6, 5 buttons one by one in that order; and then press MENU button from the remote. The display should show you the firmware version. (There's some additional info displayed everytime you press MENU button, like make day, etc.)
krisjon's Avatar krisjon 06:31 PM 10-31-2004
After updating with the region free firmware, my version is:

ESS 6720-4, Make day 831, DRV 030825, System 6768-2, DSP 6770

Sadly, after updating with this firmware, I still have banding/noise/macroblocking all over the place so I guess it's a hardware problem. Looks like this one is going back...
audioNeil's Avatar audioNeil 11:29 PM 10-31-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by krisjon
Sadly, after updating with this firmware, I still have banding/noise/macroblocking all over the place so I guess it's a hardware problem. Looks like this one is going back...

This very well may be a hardware issue. However, I have also seen color banding on this player, in some of the spots you mentioned. However, it was not too objectionable, very short duration, and probably has something to do with the original transfer. Yes, it does look like a too-small palette. This can be because of bit loss/round-off in the MPEG decoder or in the Faroudja chipset, or in the original data itself.

However, none of us are screaming like you are, so you may have a problem player.
daleebob's Avatar daleebob 09:34 AM 11-01-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by wildpanda86
We tried a number of different scenes from different movies comparing component video cables @480P vs HDMI @720P on our Mitsu DLP 52725. First of all, there seems to be no difference in sharpness or resolution between the two. I guess this is because the Mitsu will upconvert it to 720P regardless of what the input is.

The HDMI on the other hand seems to magnifiy any noise/ or problems with the video. For instance in all the dark scenes for Star Wars, Day after tomorrow, and Pirates of the Caribean it seems to have a weird green haze. In Star Wars, A new hope, when the droids where captured and placed with all the other droids to be sold, the color blackness was completely uneven and there was some green artifacts. If you switch it to 480P via HDMI, this diminishes, and at 1080i these all get worse. Via Component on the other hand, there does not seem to be any problems & the pictures are crisp and clear.

Does anyone else with a Mitsu DLP have similar experience with their Denon?

The store near us is willing to give us a floor model Denon DVD2900 (equivalent to current 3910)... for less, should we take them up on their offer? or stick with the 2910 (equivalent to old 2200) and use the components.

Once setup correctly, the picture and sound on the Denon is simply amazing.

I just traded in my 2900 for a 2910 (within the 30 day trial period) due to problems with "less than perfect" DVD's. I watched "Kill Bill" almost all the way to the end on the 2900 (which has a better pq than the 2910) and it started pixelating, stuttering, freezing, etc. I then put the DVD into my computer, and it played thru. The disc also played thru these same scenes on the 2910. Less pq but you get to see the whole movie.
ndahbar's Avatar ndahbar 11:18 PM 11-01-2004
Just finished watching Day After Tomorrow on my 1910.

Uhm...where exactly am I supposed to notice macroblocking? I didn't see any, not one bit.

Also, I wasn't sure if things looked greenish overall, but to answer that, here's a question: If i was able to see pure yellow in the movie, even in just 1 scene, can that simply mean that it wasn't showing green tint/push? Cuz I did see a few objects as purely yellow.
coreymd's Avatar coreymd 08:02 AM 11-02-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by HTBruceM
Well, due to Halloween and all, we had to watch Nightmare Before Christmas. This movie is pretty dark, and some macroblocking was present on the 2910 in some of the darker areas. Still, it was barely noticable; I had to actually LOOK for it; my wife didn't see it at all until I showed her where to look.

We watched this Sunday night as well, but I didn't notice any macroblocking at all (I was looking, too). I only noticed a little color banding in the scene of Jack walking into the woods in front of the full moon (the shades of yellow in the moon did not transition smoothly). Perhaps my gamma is too low to see the mb you saw in dark areas? The film grain was also more evident, compared to previous viewings on other players. But I can't be sure if that's due to the 2910 or just the fact that I'm noticing it more because I'm looking for it.

Of course, to put it back into perspective, none of the above are really complaints. The presentation (audio and video) still surpass any other player I've owned.

-Corey
juketrader's Avatar juketrader 08:07 AM 11-02-2004
Hi everyone any help would be most welcomed. I have a HT 1000 and a Denon 2910. I have three problems.

1 That HDCP crap I think, every now and then the picture just goes to snow and you have to restart the DVD.

2 Sparkles in the black parts of the picture.

3 A little green tint to some parts of the picture.

Other than that the picture is the best I have ever had.
This id what I think is wrong. I now have a $20.00 PC cables 25' DVI cable.
I think that could be the problem.
I have on order a 400 series monster 20' $199.00 DVI cable.
Will this help with the above problems.

Thanks,
Grady
Bytehoven's Avatar Bytehoven 08:31 AM 11-02-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by juketrader
Hi everyone any help would be most welcomed. I have a HT 1000 and a Denon 2910. I have three problems.

1 That HDCP crap I think, every now and then the picture just goes to snow and you have to restart the DVD.

2 Sparkles in the black parts of the picture.

3 A little green tint to some parts of the picture.

Other than that the picture is the best I have ever had.
This id what I think is wrong. I now have a $20.00 PC cables 25' DVI cable.
I think that could be the problem.
I have on order a 400 series monster 20' $199.00 DVI cable.
Will this help with the above problems.

Thanks,
Grady

I have had ZERO problems with the 2910 on my HT1000. Do you know what software/formware version is currently installed on your HT1000?

You can follow this link to some HT1000 settings I have been trying with the 2910.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7&goto=newpost
coreymd's Avatar coreymd 08:32 AM 11-02-2004
New observation: I watched Fahrenheit 9/11 (and FahrenHYPE 9/11) and, by accident, was able to check out the 2910's progressive output modes (Video Setup : Progressive Mode : Auto1,Auto2,Video1,Video2,Video3).

I started out watching the documentary on "Auto1" mode and very quickly realized that something was not up to snuff. Since most of the footage in the movie is from video-based sources rather than film, the picture using "Auto1" was being processed incorrectly by the 2910. The result was something you'd expect to see when two interlaced frames are displayed together when there is motion in the scene: jagged edges with an almost CRT scan line look.

But after switching the mode to "Video1", the picture returned to a very clear and smooth film-like quality. So, of course, I also tried "Video2" and "Video3", but I couldn't see any difference from "Video1". Not sure that I should have based on the source material - mostly talking heads and static shots.

As far as I know, the 2910 cannot auto-detect the source type. Does anyone know anything about this? I'm just lucky I watched a video-based source DVD while the player is still new. In a couple of months I would likely have forgotten about the video mode option.

-Corey
elmalloc's Avatar elmalloc 08:52 AM 11-02-2004
I wil read this thread when I get home, I'm at work...but I'm having some slight problems with the Denon 2910 and DVI to dVI to HDMI on my Toshiba DLP.....some ghosting in video essentials and PQ isn't as great as I expected it should have been (at least as good as RP82, but it's not).

-ELmO
jazzcat's Avatar jazzcat 09:07 AM 11-02-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by elmalloc
I wil read this thread when I get home, I'm at work...but I'm having some slight problems with the Denon 2910 and DVI to dVI to HDMI on my Toshiba DLP.....some ghosting in video essentials and PQ isn't as great as I expected it should have been (at least as good as RP82, but it's not).

-ELmO

ELmO, I have the RP82 and there is a definite difference between it and the 2910 via DVI - DVI 720p. Not a night and day difference but noticeable none the less. Better, more vivid colors and detail. And that was before I had my Sammy DLP ISF'ed
JustJeff's Avatar JustJeff 09:18 AM 11-02-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by juketrader
Hi everyone any help would be most welcomed. I have a HT 1000 and a Denon 2910. I have three problems.

1 That HDCP crap I think, every now and then the picture just goes to snow and you have to restart the DVD.

2 Sparkles in the black parts of the picture.

3 A little green tint to some parts of the picture.

Other than that the picture is the best I have ever had.

I've watched by 2910 rather compulsively since I bought it last week, and have carefully watched the following DVDs all the way through:

Dead Like Me, Season 1, episodes 7 through 12.
Dawn of the Dead, Unrated Director's Cut
Plan 9 From Outer Space (not exactly videophile grade material, but I thought I'd include it)
Ed Wood
Ghosts of the Abyss (from an IMAX master)
Video test material from "Digital Video Essentials" DVD.

I have seen no macroblocking, no green tint issues, and no unexpected pixelation. My 2910 is hooked up via DVI-D to a Toshiba 34HDX82 direct view CRT HDTV, upconverting to 1080i. Blacks are solid. Color calibration with the DVE disc was almost unnecessary with the DVI connection (I reduced contrast a tiny bit). (FYI, I've had great luck calibrating my set over the previous component inputs as well.)

If I have a complaint, it's a common one with a high-end DVD player: limitations in the source material are much more obvious to me. I've previously had a Denon 910 and a Sony DVP-7000S hooked up to this TV.

Quote:


This id what I think is wrong. I now have a $20.00 PC cables 25' DVI cable.
I think that could be the problem.
I have on order a 400 series monster 20' $199.00 DVI cable.
Will this help with the above problems.

Probably. But you should know that I got a 2 m AudioQuest CinemaQuest DV-1 cable from Magnolia Audio Video for $100 when I bought my player. I don't know if they were discounting it because I bought a player, but the cable usually goes for a lot more than that. Maybe they'll give you the same price. It's a terrific cable, and I cannot say enough about the video quality.

Thanks,
Grady

By the way, if you have a pre-amp that can take 6 channel analog audio from the 2910, use it. I did a comparison between the optical, the coax digital, and the 6-channel sound output from the 2910 with my Outlaw Audio 950 pre-amp (which is pretty damned good). The 6-channel output is freaking AWESOME. The 2910's DACs produce a rich, warm, vibrant, wholesome sound that is far superior to the digital conversion in the Outlaw, and the Outlaw is really, really good.

(I have Vandersteen 2ce main speakers, a Vandersteen VCC-1 center channel, a Sunfire True Subwoofer and measly Cambridge Soundworks dipole surrounds.)

Good luck!
elmalloc's Avatar elmalloc 09:55 AM 11-02-2004
Your set is smaller though, I think it's harder to find faults in smaller sets....I'm having some small issues with my Toshiba 46" DLP, it's not a stellar picture. I'm wondering if I should try component inputs...I don't think I get any upconversion then though.
vdmai's Avatar vdmai 01:26 PM 11-02-2004
How responsive (or fast) is this functional wise in the navigation menu or fastforward, search, etc...?

I had a 2900 before and everything was very quick, so I couldn't go back to the less expensive players (below the $300 range?).
elmalloc's Avatar elmalloc 01:31 PM 11-02-2004
Quick but I wouldn't say "VERY" quick, there's stlil a load time. If I try to cut to a scene from a DVD menu it's about 1 second. Hitting "next" though once youre within a scene, is very quick.

It's the quickest I've had, but I wouldn't say it's immediate.

-eLmO
djironic's Avatar djironic 03:12 PM 11-02-2004
Okay, in my seemingly never ending quest to find a great DVD player, I returned the 1910 and 2900 last night and picked up the 2910. I hooked it up to my Hitachi 51s700 via DVI and used AVIA to calibrate. Haven't had much chance to play with it, but here's the initial impression:

vdmai - having just compared responsiveness to the 2900, I would say that the 2910 is not nearly as responsive or authoratative (when you press the button, you get what you want), but I feel it is certainly very user friendly and good enough not to be an issue. I also like the remote for the 2910 better than the remote for the 2900.

After doing some work on calibrating the 2910, I'm disappointed to find some of the same problems I found on the 1910 (but not at all on the 2900). Macroblocking still showed up quite a bit at 1080i (though not nearly as bad as on the 1910), less at 720p, and minimally at 480p. Also, I saw the same horizontal jitter at 1080i that I saw on the 1910, and again it disappeared at 720p and 480p. So it can go away, but the PQ is noticeably worse at 480p, so I really wanted to use this player at 1080i! Aaarrghh!

The color also really seems to be off. I tried to calibrate using the Blue Bars test on AVIA, but I could never quite get it right. I ended up having to crank the color saturation to max (+6) on the DVD player, crank the color up to 65% on the TV, and then pull the hue well over into the green to get the blue bars even close to looking right (and even then, it didn't completely align the blue bars). What's interesting is that none of this was necessary on the 2900 - color calibration for it was straight down the middle (50% on everything) and it came out with a perfect blend on the blue bars.
coreymd's Avatar coreymd 03:55 PM 11-02-2004
Quote:


Originally posted by JustJeff

By the way, if you have a pre-amp that can take 6 channel analog audio from the 2910, use it. I did a comparison between the optical, the coax digital, and the 6-channel sound output from the 2910 with my Outlaw Audio 950 pre-amp (which is pretty damned good). The 6-channel output is freaking AWESOME. The 2910's DACs produce a rich, warm, vibrant, wholesome sound that is far superior to the digital conversion in the Outlaw, and the Outlaw is really, really good.

Jeff,
I'm glad to hear an affirmation of what I heard with my Yamaha receiver. Of course, I'm assuming you're referring to using the 2910's 6CH analog audio outs for regular movie material and not just for audio only discs? If that's the case, then I agree - it's definitely worth a try to see how the 2910's DACs stack up to your receiver's DACs on movie soundtrack material. And as an added bonus you'd only need to select one input on the receiver for both movie discs and audio discs...

-Corey
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