Sony DVP-NS975V FAQ / Brain dump - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 02:17 PM
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Thanks for the reply Paul. So, given that I see Macroblocking alot, the Sony would be a better choice for me, correct?

I don't think that my TV can change SD/HD while in 1080i though... Is that bad for the Sony player?

The Sony has no HDMI cable either, right?
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post #92 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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You're welcome!

If macroblocking is an issue, then the Sony could be a more satisfying choice.

The Sony has no HDMI cable of any kind.

Paul
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post #93 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 03:29 PM
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The moto 6800 series STB doesnt display dvi as well as component.
The dvi image is a tad bit washed out and "foggy" (for the lack of a better word) on the GW3.

I believe the 6800 is best over component.
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post #94 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 04:25 PM
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Do we think Panny will talk with Faroudja about firmware updates? How likely?
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post #95 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 06:08 PM
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Paul,

Great work with all these reviews. I am trying to choose between the Sony and the Panny. In your earlier posts you mention that if a display can allow for SD/HD matrix selection, choose SD with the Sony and the green depression is not an issue. Would you know how to tell if a display has the option to select either matrix? I have a Sony GWIII and have never scene this option in any menu, does that mean the GWIII doesn't have this option - or am I looking in the wrong place?

To me this is the deal breaker between these two players.....I'd rather deal with some macro-blocking (that I probably won't notice anyway) from the Panny then color issues with the Sony.

Thanks again for all your help.
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post #96 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 07:06 PM - Thread Starter
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jtrutig,

The owner's manual might have a description of how to select the matrix. Read it thoroughly. I don't have the GWIII. My Hitachi plasma does have the option to select the matrix with 720/1080i. I hear that some sets have the selection within the service menus.

Paul
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post #97 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 07:33 PM
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Well, my panny TV doens't allow me to select between SD/HD. It locks it in HD...

No go for the Sony then, right? By your review, the colors will be off, right?
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post #98 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 08:05 PM
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Thanks Paul - I'll check the manual, I also put a post up in the RPTV forum asking if anyone knows if the GWIII has this option.

If I have to go into the service menu to change it every time I want to watch a dvd that might get annoying. Ive never gone in to my service menu so I'm not sure how annoying just yet :)

Thanks again.
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post #99 of 1495 Old 11-10-2004, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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NismoZ,

Your choice. I think the colors are "off" but to some people the difference might not be noticible or within the "range of acceptance". I did post a suggestion by adjusting tint that might help.

Paul
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post #100 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
The owner's manual might have a description of how to select the matrix. Read it thoroughly. I don't have the GWIII. My Hitachi plasma does have the option to select the matrix with 720/1080i. I hear that some sets have the selection within the service menus.
My Hitachi FP (PJ-TX100) has a setting for Color Space. Is this the same as the color matrix. My choices are Auto, RGB, SMPTE240, REC709, and REC601. Does this mean that I can select somthing appropriate for the Sony player? I'm assuming it would be the RGB, is that correct?
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post #101 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 08:14 AM
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The follow quote was posted by "Lite-Up!" in the S97 Brain dump thread:

Quote:
From JJ's article on HDTV Repeaters:

DVI is an 8 bit RGB signal, while HDMI can be 8 bit RGB, or 8 bit, 10 bit, or 12 bit YCbCr. If you have a DVI source and DVI display, there will be no problem. If you have a DVI source and an HDMI display, again, no problem. If however, you have an HDMI source and a DVI display, the below-black video information may be lost in the translation. There is a bug in the Silicon Image HDMI transmitter that pops up when converting YCbCr to RGB. The HD TiVo and Pioneer 59AVi do not have this problem.

Even though source information (DVDs, HD) is all 8 bit color, if DSP is applied in 8 bit, such as in a video processor, rounding errors will toss out some of the data. On the other hand, if the data are 10 bit, such as with YCbCr, then the rounding errors don't occur. In fact, 14 - 16 bit is optimum for processing. Also, DVD data are YCbCr, and are converted to RGB in the player for the DVI output. RGB cannot represent all the data in YCbCr, and this is why the below-black information gets truncated."
Is the SD/HD matrix issue which is being referred to in these "brain dump" DVD player threads the same thing as referring to the presence of an RGB vs a YCbCr signal above? I would like to propose that the green despression occurs during the conversion from one format to the other -- as does the possibility for cropping below black information (though it may happen in during a conversion in the opposite direction).

If so, this could be a difficult issue to predict since I'm guessing most people and displays do not specify (publish) which format is utilized by a given "port" on the equipment.

gp
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post #102 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 10:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Gregg,

For HD (ITU-R BT.709-4) Luma (brightness) is defined as:
Y = .2126R +.7152G +.0722B

For SD NTSC (SMPTE170M) and SD-SDI (ITU-R BT.601-5 or SMPTE-259M) the Luma (rightness) is defined as:
Y = .299R +.587G +.114B

Both equations add up to "1".

Look at the difference in the figures of the two systems that add up to Y (1).

If the signals were identical, difference beween the red, blue, and green would be "0" for luma and for the individual colors. The following shows what happens when the standards are mismatched:

Mathematically feeding an SD signal to a system expecting an HD signal shows the differences in the systems.

Y = (+.2990R +.5870G +.1140B) ----> SD
Y = (+.2126R +.7152G +.0722B) ----> HD
--------------------------------------
0 = (+.0864R -.1282G +.0418B) ---> difference between systems

Overall Y (brightness) is unaffected by the conversion but look at the primary colors:

Note that red is somewhat positive, green is quite negative and blue is somewhat positive. If the color standards were the same all of the numbers would be "0". This resulting differernce in the equation above is what is seen via the Avia color decoder pattern.

Paul
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post #103 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 11:41 AM
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Thanks for the explanation Paul. I think I'm catching on....

The HS20 has typically been reported as a projector that exhibits a magenta "push". Some have theorized that the magenta-tinted lens cover causes this, others say it's the bulb, still others have suggested poor factory calibration.

After reading your explanation and reading on ProjectorCentral.com that the HS20 is optimized for an HD signal, I seems I should conclude that SD signals fed into the HS20 would exhibit a magenta hue (or a green depression). And, I would draw this conclusion by combining the magenta issues I've read with your explanation above.

Their is some confusion that remains. In your description of how to deal with this green depression issue, you say that facial tones would appear "jaundiced". To me, excessive green creates a jaundiced appearance (because it yellows the skin). If correctly understand the issue, I would anticipate that facial tones would appear overly red (or magenta-tinted). This seems the opposite of what you're saying. Hopefully, it's just that our definitions of a jaundice appearance are different.

And, for those units that do not have a SD/HD color space selector -- but do possess individual red/green/blue adjustment controls, I offer an alternative solution (vs. adjusting the 975).

A recent set of HS20 calibration numbers I received are as follows:
R Gain: -11 R Bias: -6
G Gain: 0 G Bias: 5
B Gain: -23 B Bias: -18

The numbers above were recorded using "Colorfacts and the numbers seem to support the magenta push (green depression) issue you've described in your posts. Unfortunately, the source used for calibration was not specified. Fortunately, the HS20 allows multiple stored user settings!

My conclusion would be that the calibration above was done using a SD signal -- wherease a HD signal might perform closer to factory defaults. And, finally, your measurements/observations regarding the 975 would indicate that settings similar to those shown above may be fairly appropriate when connecting the 975 to a Sony HS20.

Thank you for this enlightenment!

gp
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post #104 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I understand the confusion concerning the "yellow tint" faces. It's not what I would have expected at first thought. Switching between the two different color standards at 480p on my display does show a yellow cast on fleshtones when the HD matrix is selected.

Perhaps manipulating a photograph on a compter with Adobe or the like can help figure this out.

Paul
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post #105 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 12:41 PM
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Paul... Would you know if the Pioneer Elite 730HDI RPTV uses the SD or HD color matrix? I am interested in the 975 and will be hooking up via HDMI.

Thanks,

Kevin
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post #106 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Kevin,

I would assume it uses the HD matrix for the HD inputs. Whether or not the Pioneer allows switching, I have no idea.

Paul
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post #107 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
I understand the confusion concerning the "yellow tint" faces. It's not what I would have expected at first thought. Switching between the two different color standards at 480p on my display does show a yellow cast on fleshtones when the HD matrix is selected.

Perhaps manipulating a photograph on a compter with Adobe or the like can help figure this out.

Paul
I opened a photograph using PhotoEditor on my PC. Lowering blue and red results in a yellow-green tint. I think that's what we both would expect.

It may be that the selector on your TV "mixes" the colors based on the ratio you previously provided. In other words, maybe it ADDS more green while removing some blue/red. This could mean your switch works the opposite of intuition. Some times I think this can be a result of the switch being calibrated to change the display vs. changing what's expected for input.

This wouldn't be the first time that's happened. I remember a ProjectorCentral review within the past year where the color temp selector worked in reverse. (Coolest temps were on the warmest position and visa-versa).

Do you think this is possible?

gp
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post #108 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 01:01 PM
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I just got the NS9750V as a birthday gift from my generous friends yesterday, and I'm using HDMI exclusively to hook up to my Pio 5040HD; PQ is fantastic! Prior to this I was test-driving the Toshi SD-5970, and this was such a POS (unresponsive remote, unintuitive menu, weak laser that causes freezes on menus, layer changes, etc) compared to the Sony! The only feature I missed the the ability to change rez on the fly....

Here's my question: I was also looking at the Samsung 941 and Denon 2910, because these 2 players have DCDi. However from the manufacture's description of the 2910, DCDi is only available through component. Is there ever DCDi over HDMI/DVI? If HDMI is the only input I will ever use on my plasma, does a hi-end DCDi player make a difference? Sorry if this is a newbie question....
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post #109 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by msebae
I was also looking at the Samsung 941 and Denon 2910, because these 2 players have DCDi. However from the manufacture's description of the 2910, DCDi is only available through component.
That is not true. The Faroudja chip (DCDi) is involved in deinterlacing and upscaling the signal over HDMI or DVI.
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post #110 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BillP
That is not true. The Faroudja chip (DCDi) is involved in deinterlacing and upscaling the signal over HDMI or DVI.
I would agree with that. Since the 975 is capable of outputting 480i via HDMI, wouldn't it be correct to assume the de-interlacer chip would be bypassed at that point?

In other words, if you choose 480i as the output resolution, I would assume the buyer shouldn't care about Farouda -- since de-interlacing does not occur. At that point, they only need to be concerned with the MPEG decoder and this would be the only circumstance (via HDMI) where the existence of Faroudja is bypassed.

gp
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post #111 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 03:42 PM
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This is where I'm getting the info about DCDi being component-only for the 2910:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-FpWEFGz...rch=denon+2910

(OK, so it's not really manufacture specs, but hey, Crutchfield can't be wrong right ;-))

So Bill and Greg, if I'm using HDMI, then I would only be concerned about DCDi if I watch at 480p and 720p? I actually like 1080i more than 720p, and would never use 480p, so given that, what does Faroudja do for me?
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post #112 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GreggPenn
I would agree with that. Since the 975 is capable of outputting 480i via HDMI, wouldn't it be correct to assume the de-interlacer chip would be bypassed at that point?

In other words, if you choose 480i as the output resolution, I would assume the buyer shouldn't care about Farouda -- since de-interlacing does not occur. At that point, they only need to be concerned with the MPEG decoder and this would be the only circumstance (via HDMI) where the existence of Faroudja is bypassed.

gp
That is not quite true, but the deinterlacer and inverse telecine chip is bypassed for 480i.
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post #113 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by msebae
This is where I'm getting the info about DCDi being component-only for the 2910:

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-FpWEFGz...rch=denon+2910

(OK, so it's not really manufacture specs, but hey, Crutchfield can't be wrong right ;-))

So Bill and Greg, if I'm using HDMI, then I would only be concerned about DCDi if I watch at 480p and 720p? I actually like 1080i more than 720p, and would never use 480p, so given that, what does Faroudja do for me?
Again, the Faroudja chip is involved in deinterlacing (for 480p and 720p output) and with upscaling (for 720p and 1080i output) over HDMI.
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post #114 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by umr
That is not quite true, but the deinterlacer and inverse telecine chip is bypassed for 480i.
Why didn't you enlighten me with the part that isn't true? (If you're referring to my oversimplification of parts involved at 480i, then I get your drift).

gp
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post #115 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 07:20 PM
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Well HDMI fans...

On the way home from work tonight, I picked up the S97. In a real sense, I have Paul to thank for that. Paul, your review of the S97 seemed strong enough that I decided to put it up against my 975. Actually, that was my original plan but an "easy" purchase of the second unit didn't become available until today.

I will, however, cancel my 6-month-old order for the 941! That was supposed to be the third unit for comparison. And I have another poster to thank for jumping off that bandwagon. I forget who it was, but someone kept telling me the Samsung 941 wasn't going to do 1368x768 and that it would only do 1024x768. Furthermore, this could be confirmed since the 841 was the same. I will say that has been confirmed. No widescreen 768 on the 841. (Therefore, I'd agree it's reasonable to assume the same omission on the 941).

Now I have both the S97 and the 975 in my hands. I will do an informal comparison of both units, choose the one I like best and return the other one. Informal means no calibration equipment will be involved. I will rent an animated feature or two and compare those along with the few action movies I own.

The most disappointing part is that I won't complete my HT until a week or two AFTER I have to make up my mind. (Based on the purchase date of the 975, I have to decide within a week). Still I can compare the pictures on my HS20 (and a Hitachi RPTV for component questions). Also, I can listen to the sound on my smaller 5 channel setup used with the RPTV. There's a small chance I might get my big (giant) speakers done, but that's doubtful for the comparison (sigh...).

My question to everyone here is whether I should post my informal comparison in either of these (Paul's) threads or create a different one. Let me know what you think (especially Paul).

Thanks Paul for "pushing" me into this second purchase. ;)

gp
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post #116 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 07:33 PM
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This whole HD/SD color matrix thing has me asking the question why doesn't the NS97 send the upconverted signal with the HD color matrix instead of the SD color matrix? Isn't that the point of an upconverting player? To upconvert the signal as close to "HD" as possible? If an HD signal is supposed to have an HD Color matrix why wouldn't the Sony do this if it is supposed to be an upconverting player?
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post #117 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 08:02 PM
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Do any owners of the Sony 975 also own a Toshiba HM/HMX DLP TV? If so, do you know if it has an SD or switchable HD/SD matrix for the HDMI inputs?

I have a Toshiba 52HMX84 being delivered next week and want to get a DVD player also. If the 975 is compatable with the TV then that's the one I'll get. Otherwise I'll reconsider the other models.
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post #118 of 1495 Old 11-11-2004, 08:51 PM
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Gregg:

I vote for a new thread, or perhaps post in the Panny/Sony/Denon comparison thread. My next choice would be to post in this thread, and add a link in the Panny thread.

But please don't post your comprehensive and enlightening review in the Panny thread. It's already too long, and your wisdom will only become lost in all the chatter.

Looking forward to your comments.
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post #119 of 1495 Old 11-12-2004, 07:03 AM
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Gregg: You can float a new thread or use this one: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=467887
Are you going to be comparing the players using HDMI or Component?
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post #120 of 1495 Old 11-12-2004, 07:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Just another thought: put the review in the "shootout" section in first posting for both "brain dump" threads with the appropriate credit.

Perhaps in that way, it never gets "buried".

Otherwise, I would vote for the Panasonic/Sony/Denon comparison thread.

Paul
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