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post #181 of 1495 Old 11-17-2004, 11:26 PM
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____________________________________________________________

Tomdkat wrote: Thanks for this info. Would this have an impact on 480i upconverted to 1080i (presumably) by the TV being indistinguishable from 1080i input via HDMI? If this is the case, my friend will simply return the Sony and the expensive HDMI cable and stick with component video for his DVD player connection since the HDMI connection apparently won't give him any visible benefits he can appreciate.

____________________________________________________________

Like I said I may be wrong but if he sets the monitor to "Wide" mode and "vivid" for the video selection he should be displaying up tp 1080i and should see some difference. Have him check it with those settings. Remember I really am a novice. Perhaps there is another Sony Grand Wega owner in this string who could confirm this.
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post #182 of 1495 Old 11-18-2004, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mtnmike
____________________________________________________________

Tomdkat wrote: Thanks for this info. Would this have an impact on 480i upconverted to 1080i (presumably) by the TV being indistinguishable from 1080i input via HDMI? If this is the case, my friend will simply return the Sony and the expensive HDMI cable and stick with component video for his DVD player connection since the HDMI connection apparently won't give him any visible benefits he can appreciate.

____________________________________________________________

Like I said I may be wrong but if he sets the monitor to "Wide" mode and "vivid" for the video selection he should be displaying up tp 1080i and should see some difference. Have him check it with those settings. Remember I really am a novice. Perhaps there is another Sony Grand Wega owner in this string who could confirm this.
Ok, I'll pass this info on. I'm not familiar with Sony TVs in this regard so I'll have him try it and see what happens. :)

Peace....
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post #183 of 1495 Old 11-19-2004, 11:37 AM
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Has anyone tried this player with a newer Mits CRT with DVI?

The player is intriguing enough and I have a Sony player now that I'm happy with(except for its lack of Progressive).

The layer change speed is encouraging! and I like SACD too.
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post #184 of 1495 Old 11-20-2004, 09:49 PM
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Could anyone explain the advantage of upconverting to 1080I vs viewing 480i, 480p or 720p. Is there a big difference in what you are viewing and picture quality?
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post #185 of 1495 Old 11-21-2004, 05:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes -- in my situation.

My Panasonic LCD TV does not scale 480i/p to the screen's native resolution particularly well, introducing some easily noticible artifacts. However, 1080i signals are handled extremely well. Therefore, I send a 1080i signal to the TV every time -- regardless of source: cable box, D-VHS, and DVD.

For other displays that scale 480i/p to the native rate much better, the benefits of upconversion may be less noticible, if noticible at all.

Paul
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post #186 of 1495 Old 11-21-2004, 06:41 AM
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Paul,
I think your definition sums it up very well. Would it also follow that if a particular TV does not do well on SD, that it also might not handle 480i well and that it would benefit more from an upconverting player than one that does do relatively well with an SD signal?

Mike
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post #187 of 1495 Old 11-21-2004, 07:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Mike,

SD is 480i

If the TV scales SD (480i) signals to the display's native rate really well then the upscaling player might be of limited benefit. If the TV scales SD (480i) to the display's native rate poorly, the plary might have have some benefit.

The end result depends upon how well the display handles 1080i/720.

Other factors determining whether or not the player has benefits over what DVD player it might replace are: motion adaptive deinterlacing, passing blacker than black, white crush, etc. If the previous player has issues with those characteristics, then the Sony might have some addtional benefits.

Hard to say what other people will see on different displays. With my display the benefits of upconverting are real and obvious.

Paul
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post #188 of 1495 Old 11-21-2004, 11:28 AM
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Paul,

Thanks. I have just pruchased the Sony Grand Wega 55" KDF55WF655 rear projection LCD. Supposedly Sony's latest and greatest big screen.

Video

• Sony's Proprietary WEGA Engine™ System

• CineMotion™ Reverse 3-2 Pull-Down Technology

• Flexible Twin-View™ 2-Tuner Picture-and-Picture (HD, NTSC)

• DRC™ Digital Reality Creation™ Multi-Function Circuitry

• DRC™ Palette Presets (Custom 1, Custom 2, and Custom 3)

• Optical Engine

• Wide XGA LCD Panels (WXGA Panel = 0.87")

• Three Wide XGA LCD Panels: 3.28 Million Dots Resolution (1386 x 788 x 3)

• Wide Modes (Normal, Full, Zoom, Wide Zoom)

• ATSC Integrated Tuner

• CableCARD™ Slot

• 16:9 Aspect Ratio

• Picture Mode (Vivid, Standard, Pro)

• Clear Corner Focus

• Color Corrector Circuit

• Video Label

• 3D Digital Comb Filter

• High Definition Integrated Television Monitor

• Memory Stick® Media Enhanced Playback

• UHP Lamp (132W)

Inputs and Outputs

• CableCARD™ Slot: 1 Rear

• Component Video (Y/Pb/Pr) Inputs: 2 rear (1080i, 720p, 480p, 480i)

• Composite Inputs: 1 Front/ 3 Rear

• S Video Inputs: 1 Front/ 3 Rear

• HDMI with Analog Audio In - 1

• Audio Input: 1 Front/ 6 Rear

• Control S: (IN/OUT) 1 Rear

• Subwoofer Out: 1 Rear


Audio

• S-Master® 1-Bit Digital Amplifier (30 Watts)

• TruSurround® SRS® Audio Sound Processing

• BBE® Audio Effect

• Steady Sound® Automatic Volume Control

This display uses the reverse 3-2 pull down technology, the Cinemotion feature provides smoother picture movement when playing back movies or other video sources on film. It reduces the block noise caused by the digital video encoding and decoding process. The "Wide Band Video Amplifier" has a high bandwidth frequency rating, which allows it to send more video information to the screen, resulting in finer picture quality, especially for HD sources. Delivers superb picture quality from any video source by minimizing the signal deterioration caused by digital-to-analog conversion and stabilizing the signal processing. The engine features unique Sony technology, including the first step in the digital processing system, Composite Component Processor (CCP-X), which enhances input signal-to-noise ratio by chroma decoder digital processing.

Digital Reality Creation™ (DRC) Multifunction V1 Unlike conventional line doublers, the DRC Multifunction feature replaces the signal’s NTSC waveform with near-HD equivalent by digital mapping processing. The DRC Palette option lets you customize the level of detail (Reality) and smoothness (Clarity) to create a customized picture that is optimized for signal quality, viewing conditions and personal preference. ATSC Integrated Tuner allows the reception of local, off-air digital broadcasts providing the viewing of free, true high-definition network programming without the addition of a set top box or a monthly fee.

HDMI Interface (High-Definition Multimedia Interface) provides an uncompressed, all-digital audio/video interface between the TV and any HDMI-equipped audio/video component, such as a set-top box, DVD player, and A/V receiver. HDMI supports enhanced, or high-definition video, plus multi-channel digital audio.


The KDF55WF655 has an HDMI connector and I would be sending the audio to my Onkyo TX SR602 receiver via optical connection from the player. I assume this TV upconverts 480i to 720p or 1080i . If that is the case would I benefit from buying an up-converting DVD player such as the Sony 975V or the Panasonic 97S?

Thanks for your answers!

Mike
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post #189 of 1495 Old 11-21-2004, 12:58 PM
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Paul,
I realize that the SD is 480i. That is why I was thinking that an upgrade to an upconverting DVD player could mean that one would see a big improvement when upgading from a 480 only DVD player; if the TV doesn't upconvert 480 on SD well, but handles 1080 signal very well. As soon as I can find a Sony 975 or Panny S97 in a B&M store that allows returns, I will try it out to verify on my set.

Mike
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post #190 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 09:59 AM
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Ok, I bit the bullet and picked up this Sony player to go along with my GWIII. I have it connected via HDMI/DVI. I used the THX optimizer to make some adjustments and then watched the phantom menace dvd. I have to say, that the pq is pretty stunning. Very smooth. no graininess. I was just wondering if anyone has any suggestions as to other reference material I can use to judge the pq. References that will show the good and bad sides to the pq of this player. As of now, I am quite pleased with the pq. Thanks.
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post #191 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 10:40 AM
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How many people have compared the two players , besides Paul and what are your thoughts? Have the S97 currently. Was wondering if its worth to pick this player and try it out against the S97. Not really near a tweeter therefore wondering worth the drive, buy and return thing (if I do not like it/if it does not beat S97).
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post #192 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
I have just pruchased the Sony Grand Wega 55" KDF55WF655 rear projection LCD. Supposedly Sony's latest and greatest big screen.
I thought the "XS" models were Sony's latest and greatest.
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post #193 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 12:42 PM
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Rob: I think he meant 'latest' part. And XBR is Sony's greatest. :D
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post #194 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 12:45 PM
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Latest but maybe not absolutely the greatest. KDF55WF655 was released to market 09/10/04. Big diference between the XS and WF is bulit in sound system in the XS, but if you are using a good receiver and not the TV's speakers then they are basically the same. They both sport all the same connectors and video features.

BTW still asking the original question: " I assume this TV upconverts 480i to 720p or 1080i . If that is the case would I benefit from buying an up-converting DVD player such as the Sony 975V or the Panasonic 97S?"

Thanks
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post #195 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mtnmike
____________________________________________________________

Tomdkat wrote: Thanks for this info. Would this have an impact on 480i upconverted to 1080i (presumably) by the TV being indistinguishable from 1080i input via HDMI? If this is the case, my friend will simply return the Sony and the expensive HDMI cable and stick with component video for his DVD player connection since the HDMI connection apparently won't give him any visible benefits he can appreciate.

____________________________________________________________

Like I said I may be wrong but if he sets the monitor to "Wide" mode and "vivid" for the video selection he should be displaying up tp 1080i and should see some difference. Have him check it with those settings. Remember I really am a novice. Perhaps there is another Sony Grand Wega owner in this string who could confirm this.
Well, that did it! His daughter accidentally changed some settings that he wasn't aware of and now that he's got everything restored he definitely does see a difference between 480i via component and 1080i via HDMI and is very happy with this Sony player!

Thanks!

Peace...
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post #196 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Mtnmike,

Someone who has the display will have to answer definitively. In my my case, the answer with a Panasonic direct view LCD is "yes", because the Panasonic LCD does not scale 480i/p to the display's native rate very well, introuducing some artifacts. If the TV scales 480i/p signals to the display's native rate really well then the upscaling feature of the DVD player might be of limited or no benefit.

A search on forum of "KDF55WF655" and "scaler" might produce some answers.

Paul
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post #197 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mallu2u
Rob: I think he meant 'latest' part. And XBR is Sony's greatest. :D
Well actually the Qualia 006 is the greatest without a doubt and hopefully to be released by Sony in the Jan - Feb 2005 time frame. (MSRP $10,000, native resolution - 1080P !)
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post #198 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 03:38 PM
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Paul,

Thanks so very much for your response. That answer along with Tomdkat's post pretty much answers the question since he is referring to the KDF60XS955 which has all the same video features of the KDF55WF655.

Since they are seeing an improvement using the Sony 975V player on that display then I am going to go ahead and purchase the Sony player. $289.95 at the local Sound Track store.

Thanks again!

Mike
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post #199 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 07:36 PM
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It's probably bad form to post the same message in two separate threads, but this comparison should be of interest to this thread as well as the Panasonic S97 thread...

I recently brought home both the Sony and the Panasonic upconverters for comparison. Sadly both of them are going back for different reasons.

The Panasonic is a very slick player. Very responsive. Nice fast rewind and fast forward. Quick tray loading. Nice auto scaling modes (non-anamorphic zoom and 4:3 pillarboxing). No CUE or ICP. Beautiful film-like DCDi images. With all video enhancements set to normal I didn't see any white or black crushing, though it wasn't passing blacker than black. This could possibly be a display issue as I don't have much experience with the DVI port on my set (a Samsung DLP HLN-507W). But.......

The macroblocking! You have got to be kidding me. It's a complete disaster. I'll trade a little sharpness and keep my RP82. The chief reason folks on this forum want an HDMI based player is for picture quality, but macroblocking is a major destroyer of picture quality. I would argue that it is a much more significant issue than CUE. At least CUE was relegated to the edges of brightly color objects. Macroblocking covers large swaths of screen space. Its present to some degree in all low IRE material, but really becomes apparent in dark scenes. It's a shame really, because on bright scenes the images this player produces can take your breath away.

For me the Sony has to go back because it has DVI negotiation issues with my TV. Others have reported similar issues on various displays. It can be made to work, but it requires turning components on in a certain order and possibly some rapid plugs and replugs of cables. The wife is not going to like that dance just to watch a DVD.

The Sony player is also a nice player. It feels sturdier than the Panny and is equally responsive in terms of menus and navigation. It has a very fast layer switch. Its detectable, but just barely. Much faster than the Panny, which has an average layer switch time.

In terms of picture quality there are no macroblocking issues. In normal settings I didn't notice any black or white crush, but again didn't see blacker than black. The fine detail is more pixelated than the Panny, which tends to roll off the fine detail in a more film like fashion. Remember the American Flag DCDi comparisons? < http://www.gnss.com/dcdi.phtml> That's not a bad estimate of the difference in picture quality between these two players. There are reports that the Sony has the chroma error. In my opinion it does not. None of the classic Secrets tests discs demonstrate it. I think some folks may be misinterpreting non-DCDi stairstepping for CUE. I didn't notice ICP, but I don't have the test disc Secrets uses for ICP.

The Sony does not convert the SD color matrix on the DVD to the HD matrix. This means that green can appear depressed on displays that don't handle the SD color matrix (very few displays do). It is clear that the Sony's green channel is lower than the Panasonic on my display. It is also clear that the green channel on the Panasonic over HDMI looked a lot like the green channel on my RP-82 over component, so the Sony is definitely doing something different. My display is know to be very green happy, so this turned out to be less of a problem than I expected.

It should also be noted that both players have resolution drops on 4:3 and anamorphic zoomed material. The Panny looked a little worse for this, but it's debatable.

So there you go a head to head. I probably would have kept the Sony, green depression and all, if the DVI negotiation had worked reliably. I would have not only kept, but truly loved the Panasonic if it weren't for the macroblocking.

- Collin
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post #200 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Good review Collin, thanks.

The ICP for the Sony isn't *terrible* but I do see it via the DVE test pattern. The navigation on the Sony is very, very, quick. At times using the DVE, and accessing a lot of tracks, somethime the Sony seems to "lose its way" and reboots. Can't make it happen at will and, so far, has only happened with the DVE. Hasn't happened watching a movie.

The observeration with the color has been noted. Depending upon the accuracy of the display's color decoding calibration the end result can be depressed green, and slightly boosted red and blue.

It has been my experience that with 4:3 pillarboxing the Sony is a bit better than the Panasonic in reference to picture detail. Neither the Sony nor the Panasonic is as good as the Momitsu in this regard.

Paul
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post #201 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 09:34 PM
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Please excuse my ignorance and laziness - I'm sure the answer is staring me in the face somewhere in this thread or elsewhere - but could someone define ICP?

While I haven't seen the Panasonic, I agree wholeheartedly with Collin about macroblocking as quite disruptive as presented in another DVI-out player with the Faroudja FL2310, that I returned.

Please, could a major manufacturer produce a less than $500 HDMI out DVD player without macroblocking, incorrect color rendition, or other easily avoidable defect?

Still awaiting a reliable D1 replacement (for less that $800+),

Dan
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post #202 of 1495 Old 11-22-2004, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drapp1952
Please excuse my ignorance and laziness - I'm sure the answer is staring me in the face somewhere in this thread or elsewhere - but could someone define ICP?

While I haven't seen the Panasonic, I agree wholeheartedly with Collin about macroblocking as quite disruptive as presented in another DVI-out player with the Faroudja FL2310, that I returned.

Please, could a major manufacturer produce a less than $500 HDMI out DVD player without macroblocking, incorrect color rendition, or other easily avoidable defect?

Still awaiting a reliable D1 replacement (for less that $800+),

Dan
Here's the quintessential (and pretty technical) link explaining both CUE and ICP. I can't wait for one of these on the macroblocking issue.

http://128.121.62.219/volume_8_2/dvd...ug-4-2001.html

In short the color information on a DVD is stored in a lower resolution format than the grayscale information. During the decoding processes a DVD player must upconvert the color information into a higher resolution format. There are two algorithms to do this based on whether a frame is progressive or interlaced. Some DVD players only contain the algorithm for interlaced frames. If the interlaced algorithm is applied to progressive frames a combing effect appears on color transitions. This is the Chroma Upsampling Error or CUE. It was very pervasive a few years ago.

The story doesn't end there however. The interlaced algorithm however has its problems even on interlaced material. When a frame has been broken into two interlaced fields the color information is so low resolution that when it is reassembled by a deinterlacer or your brain the two fields don't quite match up. This is the Interlaced Chroma Problem or ICP. Where CUE is an actual bug in the MPEG decoder. ICP is a design flaw in the DVD format. It can however be corrected or at least covered up by clever deinterlacers. DCDi corrects the problem relatively well. I think the conclusion is that Sony's proprietary deinterlacer in the 975 doesn't do as good a job at covering up this issue.

- Collin
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post #203 of 1495 Old 11-23-2004, 12:37 AM
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collinp,

Great comparo! Hate to see you return your Sony solely because of DVI/HDCP negotiation issue... I have a Pio 5040HD with 2 HDMI inputs, and I use Sony 975 for input3 and SA8000HD for input1. I NEVER have HDCP negotiation issues with the Sony, however the SA8000 is a totally different story (well documented in its respective thread, turning tv/stb on off in different order and switching channels to get the handshake to work.)

I'm curious if more investigation into HDMI/DVI HDCP handshaking can be done. Exactly who is at fault, the source or the target? Or the cable? Or temporal solar flares?? I find it hard to believe that manufacturers can botch up this security handshake so badly... Why does it take 5+ seconds for components to recognize each other over 1 3-foot cable, whereas HTTPS/SSL handshakes over thousands of miles take <100 milliseconds?? I may be doing an apples-to-oranges comparison, but I don't think I'm too far off with this complaint...

Gene
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post #204 of 1495 Old 11-23-2004, 06:24 AM
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Alittle off the topic here but I would like to pose a question to all the experts here :

I would like to ask a question regarding upconverting. With the Sony 975, can you upconvert to a DVI TV that is HDCP Compliant.

Thank you
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post #205 of 1495 Old 11-23-2004, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, with at HDMI->DVI cable/adapter.

Paul
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post #206 of 1495 Old 11-23-2004, 07:06 AM
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Thanks Paul. Thats what I thought.
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post #207 of 1495 Old 11-23-2004, 07:11 AM
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First post here, hope I put it in the right place. If you are using both the digital audio outs and the 5.1 analog outs for SACD and wish to use the TEST TONE patterns to balance speakers while using the analog outs, you must turn off the digital outs or no tone will be heard. There is no reference to this in the manual.I actually brought the unit back because I could not balance the analog out, and thought it was defective. The store was out of replacements for two weeks, So I brought it back home till the new ones arrived. I finally thought to try turning off the the digital outs and success! Hope this saves someone from the aggrevation I went through,and if it was posted somewhere else,my apologies,I did do a search for "test tone" with no success.BTW this is a very educational forum.Thanks to all.
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post #208 of 1495 Old 11-23-2004, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Great comparo! Hate to see you return your Sony solely because of DVI/HDCP negotiation issue... I have a Pio 5040HD with 2 HDMI inputs, and I use Sony 975 for input3 and SA8000HD for input1. I NEVER have HDCP negotiation issues with the Sony, however the SA8000 is a totally different story (well documented in its respective thread, turning tv/stb on off in different order and switching channels to get the handshake to work.)
I'm curious what you see when you have handshaking issues, esp. with the HD8000. Do you get nothing or do you get a HDCP warning message? I can't get anything out of my HD8000 and I don't know if it's not enabled or what. I don't seem to have any problems with my DVD players.
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post #209 of 1495 Old 11-23-2004, 05:15 PM - Thread Starter
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No problem with handshaking with a Panasonic TC-22LH1 w/HDMI. It does take a moment when the Sony is turned on but the handshake never fails and no gyrations needed to make it work.

Paul
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post #210 of 1495 Old 11-24-2004, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Warehouse
I'm curious what you see when you have handshaking issues, esp. with the HD8000. Do you get nothing or do you get a HDCP warning message? I can't get anything out of my HD8000 and I don't know if it's not enabled or what. I don't seem to have any problems with my DVD players.
I see two different symptoms of HDCP handshake issue with the 8000HD.

1) If my plasma/stb are not turned on in the correct order, which I believe is stb first then plasma for the MOST case, then I get the HDCP warning message. Cycling my plasma or cycling a channel fixes this problem.

2) From my plasma if I switch to another input and back to the 8000HD, I aways get a black screen. Cycling the channel on the STB always resolves this.

Gene
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