My sammy HD941 review - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 738 Old 12-07-2004, 09:59 PM
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I look forward to finding out just how good it looks....I should be getting my 941 Friday unless the Fed-Ex guy gets lost. I will be watching on a Sammy HLP6163 via HDMI (but have DVI backup in case).

Can't wait! Black crush or not, I am excited!

-Shawn

"There's no place like 127.0.0.1"
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post #182 of 738 Old 12-07-2004, 10:15 PM
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about this whole "black crush" thing

i just found out that my jvc 30K deck can't pass blacker-thank-black via component but i've been VERY impressed with it's picture quality on my projector.

is it possible that black crush might not be as big of a problem for some setups as others?

i was planning on using the 841 or 941 with DVI.....does "black crush" become "worse" or more apparent via DVI as opposed to comonent?

thanks
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post #183 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 07:47 AM
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Black crush usually is not an issue for component ouput. It's only a problem for digital inputs.
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post #184 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by grrr223
I hope I'm not beating a dead horse here, but is the effect of converting the 16-235 to 0-255 when the TV is expecting 16-235 mean that 0-16 all get "crushed" to 16 and that 235-255 all equal 235?
Do the math. 16->0 and 235->255. So a gray scale of 30 will be converted to roughly 16 in PC video range. All values below 30 will be below 16 in PC video range. Now when a TV gets the signal, it will display 16 (which is 30 in DVD movie) as black. All other blacks below is crushed.
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post #185 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oleus
Foxbat

this might be a little off topic, but i have been told that the HDMI DVHS deck i've been wanting (JVC 5U) also crushed blacks and whites when going hdmi-dvi, so it's not just Samsung dropping the ball on this.

And to think, JVC considers that deck a high-end product!!!
There is a known HDMI transmitter chip problem posted in another thread a few months back. A lot of early HDMI equipments use that chip. Samsung is special because it has this issue for all its DVI players (931 and 841) and never admit it did anything wrong.
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post #186 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 08:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by lgerbarg
I am the person who has HDMI-HDMI failing BTB. Even at full brightness I cannot see the Pluge bars at any contrast. I suspect my TV (HLP4663W) is miscalibrated, I just ordered the service manual, and a friend of mine volunteered to let me use her colorimeter, so I should be able to to eliminate that issue, I am optimistic that will solve the problem. I posted some pics of it here in case I am missing something obvious.

Louis
Louis,

From your pics it looks like the HLP 4663 is in Standard picture mode. Try putting it in Cinema mode. Not sure if Standard is capable of displaying BTB but Cinema definitely is. I have Brightness set to 60 (the default) with my Panny s97 and can see BTB fine. I would also recommend turning Sharpness to 0 (yes 0) and turning DNIe on.

Cinema is much more accurate and looks much better once you get used to it. I recommend using it for all of your inputs including regular HD viewing. At first it may seem a little dark but give it a few hours/days and you will never go back. When I switch to Standard I can't believe that I watched TV for months that way.
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post #187 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by supershawn
I look forward to finding out just how good it looks....I should be getting my 941 Friday unless the Fed-Ex guy gets lost. I will be watching on a Sammy HLP6163 via HDMI (but have DVI backup in case).

Can't wait! Black crush or not, I am excited!
I feel the same way as you...I have seen this player hooked up to a HLP61" HDMI and all I can say is SWEET!

Joe V.
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post #188 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 09:39 AM
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I have a Sammy 50" HLP paired with the HD941 and the picture is incredible!

I have a couple of questions for other 941 owners...

I am using the HDMI to HDMI connection and passing the audio via digital coax to my receiver. In the 941's menu I have set text messages to "off." Every time that I turn the player on/off this menu choice seems to default back to "on." The annoying part is with text messages "on," I keep seeing the message of "HDMI Audio Not Supported" prior to the movie starting. Granted I know this message is because I am not using the HDMI audio signal, but I prefer not to keep seeing this message. I know the Panny S97 allows you to turn HDMI audio off. Any thoughts?

One last issue...

While watching movies, I notice that maybe once or twice throughout the movie I get a quick flash of a solid green screen but the audio doesn't skip a beat. I am using the HDMI cable that came with the player (since i don't feel like shelling out the $$ for a better cable yet), could this be the problem? I have made sure that the HDMI cable is not loose on either end.
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post #189 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 10:47 AM
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Just spoke to someone at TVA, now they are saying that shipment is delayed--something about a "proprietary connection"? i have no idea what she was talking about. anyway, she said that they are now going to be shipping middle of december...

does samsung not want to sell these things, or what?
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post #190 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 11:15 AM
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I heard from TVA yesterday that they were shipping my 941 today. I haven't heard from them today yet but now wonder if it will be held up too.

I plan to connect it via HDMI with the audio going to my receiver. I would also like to know if you can turn off HDMI audio.
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post #191 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 12:41 PM
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Regarding this black crush issue - is this equivalent to players not passing blacker than black?
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post #192 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxbat121
Do the math. 16->0 and 235->255. So a gray scale of 30 will be converted to roughly 16 in PC video range. All values below 30 will be below 16 in PC video range. Now when a TV gets the signal, it will display 16 (which is 30 in DVD movie) as black. All other blacks below is crushed.
Wait a minute!

A DVI display, like the Samsung DLP, is expecting PC video levels (0-255). So its only values below 16 and above 235 on the DVD that will be crushed. (To be fair, though, a few more values between 16 & 235 on the DVD could be crushed when the Chroma and Luma signals are processed... their resulting RGB values could land in the 0-16 or 235-255 range too).

Another consequence of expanding 16-235 to 0-255 is BANDING of smooth gradients - which looks obnoxious on a brilliant digital display like the DLP.

Everybody at Samsung wears dark glasses and carries white canes. Worse still, they turn their hearing aids off too. See no evil... hear no evil... they insist the problem does not exist!

Gary
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post #193 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by drziggles
Just spoke to someone at TVA, now they are saying that shipment is delayed--something about a "proprietary connection"? i have no idea what she was talking about. anyway, she said that they are now going to be shipping middle of december...

does samsung not want to sell these things, or what?
They called me yesterday and said they will be shipping today...my credit card was charged as of yesterday. I will be pissed if you are right! Can anybody else confirm this?

Joe V.
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post #194 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GSB
Wait a minute!

A DVI display, like the Samsung DLP, is expecting PC video levels (0-255). So its only values below 16 and above 235 on the DVD that will be crushed. (To be fair, though, a few more values between 16 & 235 on the DVD could be crushed when the Chroma and Luma signals are processed... their resulting RGB values could land in the 0-16 or 235-255 range too).

Another consequence of expanding 16-235 to 0-255 is BANDING of smooth gradients - which looks obnoxious on a brilliant digital display like the DLP.
A DVI TV will display 16 as black and 235 as white (anything above 235 or below 16 will likely be crushed if properly calibrated). And that is ok. Now Samsung DVI players expands DVD 16 to DVI 0 and DVD 235 to DVI 255. So not only DVD video values above 235 and below 16 are crushed, values between 16 to 30 and values between 218 to 235 will be crushed as well.

All Samsung needs to do is keep DVD values as is and not expanding them.
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post #195 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 01:50 PM
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Foxbat121: The relevant question is, is the 941 doing the 'bad' things you say, via the HDMI-HDMI connection. The fact that previous Samsung dvd players had this problem is immaterial at this stage.
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post #196 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by millerwill
Foxbat121: The relevant question is, is the 941 doing the 'bad' things you say, via the HDMI-HDMI connection. The fact that previous Samsung dvd players had this problem is immaterial at this stage.
As I said before, it is inconclusive at this time. And I don't even sure HDMI-DVI behaves the way that is described here. If I'm holding $300 eager to spend, I wouldn't buy HD941 based on Samsung's past record (never produced a good DVD players what so ever) until I see Secrect's review. There are other players (Panasonic S97 and Sony 975) for the same price from Companies that have good track records and more options to configure than Samsung HD941.

If you believe buying components from the same company is a sure bet, Samsung is an exception.
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post #197 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 02:30 PM
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I am also looking for a SACD and DVD-Audio player, I have read the threads about the other Samsung players, but with these additional features, are there still any other options at this price point?

I do want the HDMI out.

As for me, i'm crossing my fingers and holding my breath that they've fixed a handful of their previous mistakes.
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post #198 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 02:35 PM
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Foxbat121: I have tried the Panny S97 (which most people seem to like better than the Sony) and found it unacceptible (HDMI-HDMI to my hlp6163) because of severe MB'in when I had the Brightness up high enough to pass BTB. Also didn't like the Denon 1910 because of the heavy green cast in dark scenes. I now have the Denon 2910 and like it very much, but would like to find an acceptible solution for ~$350 less!
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post #199 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 02:40 PM
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The 941 is definitely the least expensive way to get SACD, DVD-A, and HDMI upscaling. It reportedly does not have black crush when going HDMI-to-HDMI, and has excellent audio. I have not read whether it has MB. Sounds like a good option at that price point (if you have an HDMI input).
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post #200 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 03:17 PM
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Yipee!

I set about buying a DVD player (I am probably the only member here without one aren't I, I have to use the S-Video out through my laptop) I decided that I wanted the following:
  • HDMI
  • SACD
  • DVD-A

and I found a bunch that had 2 of the three, but only the 941 had all of them, BUT it didn't really exist. So I am quite pleased to hear that it has finally been released.

I'm not in a huge hurry here, I've lived without a DVD player for a few months now, I can survive a little longer. Would it be wise to wait until the CES to see what new products are released then before spending my money now or will that just be perpetuating the vicious cycle of constant new products. A perfect example being this very player, it was announced at LAST year's CES I think and is just now being released.

Any thoughts?
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post #201 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 03:26 PM
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The Denon DVD-2910 and DVD-3910 have all three as well.

Paul
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post #202 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by BillP
The 941 is definitely the least expensive way to get SACD, DVD-A, and HDMI upscaling. It reportedly does not have black crush when going HDMI-to-HDMI, and has excellent audio. I have not read whether it has MB. Sounds like a good option at that price point (if you have an HDMI input).
Let's see:

* there is one reports that HD941 HDMI-HDMI does not pass BTB
* there is one reports that HD941 also has MB
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post #203 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jwv651
They called me yesterday and said they will be shipping today...my credit card was charged as of yesterday. I will be pissed if you are right! Can anybody else confirm this?
I just chatted with TVA and got the same line of crap - "Due to some proprietary connections they have delayed the release of the HD941. They are now going to release it the middle of December."

After explaining that some people had already had them shipped, she changed her tune. Said that a small order (16-18) had shipped yesterday. They are waiting on another shipment, but can't tell me when to expect it. I'm supposedly #7 on the list, so hopefully mine will come soon.

I ordered this thing 6 months ago ... the wait continues
:rolleyes:
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post #204 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 06:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxbat121
Black crush usually is not an issue for component ouput. It's only a problem for digital inputs.
I don't know what to expect. I've never had Black Crush.

I often enjoyed Orange Crush as a child, though.

-Shawn

"There's no place like 127.0.0.1"
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post #205 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gizmo123
I just chatted with TVA and got the same line of crap - "Due to some proprietary connections they have delayed the release of the HD941. They are now going to release it the middle of December."

After explaining that some people had already had them shipped, she changed her tune. Said that a small order (16-18) had shipped yesterday. They are waiting on another shipment, but can't tell me when to expect it. I'm supposedly #7 on the list, so hopefully mine will come soon.

I ordered this thing 6 months ago ... the wait continues
:rolleyes:
Sorry to hear that. TVA is a good company, hopefully you get it taken care of.

I had problems with my initial order. I will say that they went WAY out of their way to make it up to me.

Hopefully they take care of you as well.

-Shawn

"There's no place like 127.0.0.1"
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post #206 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul Bigelow
The Denon DVD-2910 and DVD-3910 have all three as well.

Paul
I guess I should have mentioned a 4th criteria:
  • Cost less than $500

My fault, I made the assumption that price point was kinda expected in this thread.

Thanks though, I really do wish I oculd afford one of those right now, but the $$$ just isn't there :(.
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post #207 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 06:44 PM
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Foxbat121...You must really hate Samsung DVD players or Samsung as a company...Try and give the 941 a chance...there isn't enough information to scrap this player yet...Just curious what do you use for a DVD player.

Joe V.
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post #208 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 07:32 PM
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No hatred against Samsung. As I repeated again and again: I'm willing to give HD941 a benefit of doubt until Secret's review is out.

I had 3 HD841s in a row and now settled on a Pioneer 578a (I've a lot bad things to say about 578a as well if you search this forum) when it's on clearance. I'm still holding out for that perfect up-conversion player just like most of you are. Tried the new LGDVB418B and really don't like it at all.
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post #209 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 08:08 PM
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I am waiting on a tracking number but I should have my 941 on Friday. I will re-calibrate with VE and Avia and try Component, HDMI, and DVI. I am not an expert but I will surely share my results.

The 941 will be going to a HLP 6163.

-Shawn

"There's no place like 127.0.0.1"
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post #210 of 738 Old 12-08-2004, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxbat121
No hatred against Samsung. As I repeated again and again: I'm willing to give HD941 a benefit of doubt until Secret's review is out.

I had 3 HD841s in a row and now settled on a Pioneer 578a (I've a lot bad things to say about 578a as well if you search this forum) when it's on clearance. I'm still holding out for that perfect up-conversion player just like most of you are. Tried the new LGDVB418B and really don't like it at all.
3=841's that's not good...I been using the hd931 and it needs to go...I also sent a Denon 1910 packing...I too am looking for the best up conversion player if there is one...if the 941 flops...I don't know what I will go for maybe the Denon2910 and just live with it.

Joe V.
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