My sammy HD941 review - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 04:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Had a chance this afternoon to try out the HD941 and wanted to give some brief feedback for those considering this unit. My setup is hdmi to dvi (HT1000) via 768p output. I can't comment on HDMI - HDMI connections.

In a nutshell, this player has the negatives of previous generation sammy's:

- Does NOT pass BTB
- Black crush

Also, it has ZERO picture controls.

The only plus I can think of is that it scales to 1024X768... which is the reason why I wanted to try it out. In this regard, the picture is extremely sharp and focused. Slightly better than my panny S97 at 1080i.

In general, the picture is overly dark and black details are crushed. In avia, I could not distinguish the "Black" window from the 10 IRE window. I could not see any macroblocking since everything was so dark to begin with.

Colors are washed and blown out looking. Colors of the S97 look much more saturated and balanced.

I tried to adjust RGB gains and biases on my pj to compensate for this player and couldn't get it to look right.

I can't think of a reason why anyone would want to buy this player. The S97 outputs a much better picture and is loaded with features and picture controls.

Again.. this is going from HDMI to DVI. HDMI to HDMI may have different results, but I figure it will have similar problems.


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post #2 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 05:01 PM
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Thank you sir. My hunt continues.

Jay
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post #3 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pocoloco
Had a chance this afternoon to try out the HD941 and wanted to give some brief feedback for those considering this unit. My setup is hdmi to dvi (HT1000) via 768p output. I can't comment on HDMI - HDMI connections.

In a nutshell, this player has the negatives of previous generation sammy's:

- Does NOT pass BTB
- Black crush

Also, it has ZERO picture controls.

The only plus I can think of is that it scales to 1024X768... which is the reason why I wanted to try it out. In this regard, the picture is extremely sharp and focused. Slightly better than my panny S97 at 1080i.

In general, the picture is overly dark and black details are crushed. In avia, I could not distinguish the "Black" window from the 10 IRE window. I could not see any macroblocking since everything was so dark to begin with.

Colors are washed and blown out looking. Colors of the S97 look much more saturated and balanced.

I tried to adjust RGB gains and biases on my pj to compensate for this player and couldn't get it to look right.

I can't think of a reason why anyone would want to buy this player. The S97 outputs a much better picture and is loaded with features and picture controls.

Again.. this is going from HDMI to DVI. HDMI to HDMI may have different results, but I figure it will have similar problems.
Good review. Sammy loses my money for another dvd player if they can't even fix the Black crush issue!!!!!!! I'm still pissed I bought the 841 and their tech support acts like I'm a dumba55 when I bring up black crush on the DVI. ok, done venting. :D

Dale
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post #4 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 06:16 PM
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So we can offically write Samsung off from the entire DVD player marketplace now, finally?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #5 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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I wouldn't count it out until we can get a person to try out HDMI to HDMI.

But for me, this player didn't even stay on my rack for more than a couple hours. I still can't believe it doesn't have any picture controls.


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post #6 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 06:50 PM
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I guess Samsung is sitting on its laurels from HD931 era.

Vinod
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post #7 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 07:12 PM
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I received the HD941 and have tried the HDMI-HDMI cable. The player seems to pass below black signals ok. When I changed to a HDMI-DVI cable it would not. The HDMI input was on a Sony KDEXS50955. The DVI input was on a Runco 710 DLP. I have not done in depth analysis, however preliminary results are favorable. FYI - I also own a Denon 3910 which I may compare it to.
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post #8 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 07:23 PM
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Interesting. So black crush if HDMI-DVI, but no black crush HDMI-HDMI. This problems occurs with some other HDMI players as well.
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post #9 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by uddinz
I FYI - I also own a Denon 3910 which I may compare it to.
uddinz: This comparison will be extremely useful. Thanks much for your forthcoming efforts!
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post #10 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 08:49 PM
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Thanks for the reports on the player so far.

Will be keeping an eye on this since I've been waiting for this to come out locally.


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post #11 of 738 Old 11-26-2004, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Interesting. So black crush if HDMI-DVI, but no black crush HDMI-HDMI. This problems occurs with some other HDMI players as well.
The Pioneer 59i did this too. But somebody figured out there was a menu that you can change to eliminate the problem.

The problem comes from the player doing the Y-Cb-Cr to R'G'B' prior to the HDMI transmitter. Is there any menu that says anything like 'Direct mode'? The Pioneer has a menu that allows, Natural or Enhanced. Enhanced enables the 'Black Crush' bug. Anything like that on the 941?

Ernie

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post #12 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 04:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dkyork
their tech support acts like I'm a dumba55 when I bring up black crush on the DVI.
Dale
Dale, The reason the tech dept treats you that way is because they have NO IDEA what "black crush" is.. You didn't expect to get anywhere when you called with that issue, did you? Who do you think is manning the phones there? Design engineers? :-)

Frank
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post #13 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by santellavision
The problem comes from the player doing the Y-Cb-Cr to R'G'B' prior to the HDMI transmitter. Is there any menu that says anything like 'Direct mode'? The Pioneer has a menu that allows, Natural or Enhanced. Enhanced enables the 'Black Crush' bug. Anything like that on the 941?
The 941 has no such controls.

The basic video controls offered are:
- selecting your display's apsect ratio
- black level on/off. This is the 0 vs 7.5 ire control over component video
- select analog or hdmi output
- select hdmi output resolution
- select Mode A or B for HDMI that shifts the image to the right or left.


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post #14 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:02 AM
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ok, so it sounds like 941 is a failure for HDMI to DVI, clarify me if I'm wrong. I just bought the denon 1910 and the PQ is crisp at 720, however it jitters at 1080. Do you guys think I should stick with the 1910 DVI-DVI or exchange it for the 941 HDMI - DVI on a sammy 61" DLP.
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post #15 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TMLeader
ok, so it sounds like 941 is a failure for HDMI to DVI, clarify me if I'm wrong. I just bought the denon 1910 and the PQ is crisp at 720, however it jitters at 1080. Do you guys think I should stick with the 1910 DVI-DVI or exchange it for the 941 HDMI - DVI on a sammy 61" DLP.
Based on that choice, I would stick with the 1910.

Chris
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post #16 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:23 AM
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The black control only applies to component output. It is disabled for DVI. As for black crush vs BTB, in theory, you're correct. The two may not be co-related. However, in most cases, the player's inability to pass BTB is directly the result of an in-correct conversion in the signal path. Like from YCbCr -> RGB, i.e. most PC DVD playback software. In the case of Samsung DVI/HDMI players, it has been true for HD931, HD841 and now HD941 that not only they can not pass BTB but also they suffer from black crush.
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post #17 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:30 AM
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That quote confused me even more :)...

Think before you speak....
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post #18 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:34 AM
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Here's the translation of all that mess for you: Samsung 941 = 841 with a Faroudja chip thrown in the mix. Virtually all of 841's flaws appear to still exist to some degree or another, and it has yet to be determined if menu adjustments and/or patches can get these issues resolved.

How's that? ;)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #19 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:36 AM
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The AVIAPro brightness test (Black level bars) uses 3 IRE strips with the left being 4 IRE below black, the middle being 1 IRE above black, and the right being 2 IRE above black.

Can anyone test the 941 with AviaPro?

If the display device is properly calibrated, and the 941 can resolve the difference between the middle and right black bar (a step of 1 IRE), that should establish whether or not there is black crush.

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post #20 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:45 AM
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Q,

We haven't heard anyone complaint about the DTS sound drop issue yet that plauged HD841 as well as HD931. That's the second most important issue to fix on my list.
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post #21 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Foxbat121
Q,

We haven't heard anyone complaint about the DTS sound drop issue yet that plauged HD841 as well as HD931. That's the second most important issue to fix on my list.
Oh yeah! Sorry! Forgot about that! ;)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #22 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yankees24
That quote confused me even more :)...
I thought uddinz posted it passed black over black hdmi to hdmi. :confused:
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post #23 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 09:07 AM
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Bottom line...

If you will use an HDMI-to-HDMI cable to your display you are OK to consider this player.
If you plan on using an HDMI-to-DVI cable, forget it and keep looking for another player.

Ernie

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post #24 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 09:13 AM
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Assuming one is using HDMI-HDMI, it would be very illuminating to have someone compare the PQ--i.e., color quality, macroblocking, etc.--of the 941 to the Panny s97.
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post #25 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 10:52 AM
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Hi:

from what i read, this issues of black crush and BTB will not affect the PAL performance of the dvd player? What i mean, is that this issues don't occur in PAL versions?

Regards,

J. Rosado

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post #26 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 11:39 AM
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Here is a poor quailty jpg of HD941 HDMI-HDMI DVE Title 12/Ch 2. As you can see all three bars are visible. I have Avia but not Avia Pro. Don't get alarmed with the quality of the picture, I was trying to get my daughter to go to sleep while trying to take the picture.
LL
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post #27 of 738 Old 11-27-2004, 01:04 PM
 
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Guys! Please!

BTB and PC level and IRE issues are all getting smashed together.

Players may or may not maintain BTB data, and may do so in some modes and not others.

If you are performing a PC-level expansion, such as an "enhanced" output mode via a digital connection, you will be suffering a clipping of BTB and peak white data.

Note that the IRE setup is an adjustment for the ANALOG outputs.

When talking about the passing of BTB material, and peak whites, use a disc such as Avia Pro or DVE which contains this data to test it, and also test multiple settings and connection methods.

Statements such as "player X does not pass BTB" or "player X passes BTB" are useless unless we know all the various settings, and the connection method.
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post #28 of 738 Old 11-28-2004, 06:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kevin R. Anderson


The bottom line is that I think we need to be careful with generalizations that because a DVD player cannot pass BTB (meaning that it complies with NTSC and SMPTE standards of setting black level at 7.5 IRE), it necessarily suffers from “black crush†or is inherently inferior to a DVD player that can pass BTB.

Hopefully someone can do an accurate and objective test on the 941 (anyone with a waveform scope?) to see if it truly crushes blacks or merely complies with NTSC and SMPTE standards of setting 7.5 IRE as black.
Yes. The jury is still out on the 941, but everyone here is certainly hoping, in this case, that it DOESN'T live up to its pedigree.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #29 of 738 Old 11-28-2004, 07:45 AM
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Fact #1
0IRE and 7.5IRE have absolutely nothing to do with the passing of below video black.

Fact #2
If a player cannot pass below black or above white signals, be it from its analog or digital outputs or be it in progressive or interlaced mode, it is either a design flaw, a chip flaw or both. No amount of double-speak, misunderstanding or out-of-context gobbledy-gook changes that.


Here's a link to Guy Kuo, Stacey Spears, Don Munsil and others explaining why the ability to pass below black and above white signals is important:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4&highlight=PC


And here's a quote from none other than Guy Kuo:
"I myself was once too rigid an advocate of all BTB and WTW image details as being illegal and the result of poor mastering. It was over a period of time that Stacey Spears showed me that such a rigid stance had negative real life imaging consequences. I still believe that mastering of material should place black at digital 16 and white at digital 235 - just as per standards. The playback system, including display, needs to handle BTB and WTW to preserve all the nuances that are by human nature not always exactly right. The latter two processes also mean that even if we manage to overcome human inexactness, there are still reasons to preserve BTB and WTW image data."

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post #30 of 738 Old 11-28-2004, 07:58 AM
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DVI only supports 8-bits per color while HDMI provides additional bits allowing for more levels. Perhaps the 941 is simply truncating the lower order bits to go from HDMI to DVI and this could result in the black crush problem with DVI but not with HDMI.

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