Pioneer Elite 59avi Owners Thread - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 06:28 AM
 
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If anyone has experienced lip sync problems on their DVD players, please help us all by visiting the thread listed below and contributing your information.
LIP SYNC PROBLEM DATA COLLECTION

Thank you for taking the time to contribute to this project.
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post #812 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 09:37 AM
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Kris' comment on the Y/C delay over component was based on his testing of the new unit with the new firmware, not the old one previously reviewed. Based on his HDMI recommendation for the DV-59AVi, one can assume that the new firmware resolved the Y/C delay problem over HDMI
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post #813 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 11:28 AM
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What has better sound (i.e. CD, DVDA, SACD, movies), the Denon 3910 or 59AVI???....
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post #814 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 11:33 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by dr150
What has better sound (i.e. CD, DVDA, SACD, movies), the Denon 3910 or 59AVI???....

The Onkyo 1000, The Integra 10.5, and the Denon 5910. YMMV and you'd have to decide "how much better" and if it's worth the extra $$$$ to you.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #815 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 11:59 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
The Onkyo 1000, The Integra 10.5, and the Denon 5910. YMMV and you'd have to decide "how much better" and if it's worth the extra $$$$ to you.

Only if using the analog section... If using the firewire connection, then they will all sound the same...


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post #816 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 01:23 PM
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I have a Yamaha rx-z9 receiver and really want to get this dvd player and utilize the firewire connection. Has anyone used these 2 units together? I am told from Pioneer that they will not guarantee compatibility with other brands I-Link connections. What are the chances these will not match up?
Has anyone used the Pioneer firewire connection to another branded product and does it work?

I currently use a samsung hd841 for dvd audio/sacd. Can I assume I will hear a large improvement using firewire?

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post #817 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 01:56 PM
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Robert- If you go back and look through this thread, a number of 59AVi owners *have* looked at the Y/C delay test pattern on Avia and seen no delay even through component. So I'm not sure what Kris is seeing unless there's variation among units.

Lip sync on a Pioneer? I haven't had that problem since the 414 player I had a long time ago. And even in that case, Pioneer came out with a firmware fix to address it. I guess that's one problem we don't have vs other players...

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.


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post #818 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 03:07 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by LEVESQUE
Only if using the analog section... If using the firewire connection, then they will all sound the same...

You forgot the Placebo effect and the heavier, better built player will make you think the sound is better. Don't forget a botique HDMI cable will make a big difference too
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post #819 of 2187 Old 05-08-2005, 06:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by LEVESQUE
Only if using the analog section... If using the firewire connection, then they will all sound the same...

Right.

And anyone who is going to purchase a new receiver or pre/pro would be crazy to buy one that doesn't have a firewire connection.


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post #820 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 06:51 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by LEVESQUE
Only if using the analog section... If using the firewire connection, then they will all sound the same...

Only question I have on that idea would be this:

Theoretically, if I get the Son May Hong Kong special for $200 overseas, and this player happens to have firewire on it and then a $3500 player like, say, the Denon 5910 also has firewire...they're BOTH going to sound EXACTLY the same?

(We won't even get into coax or optical, from which I've heard differences between units myself in the past in addition to more pronounced differences over analogs, as you might expect.)

How can this be? Surely engineering and quality of components used has to come into play at some point?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #821 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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There are two lines of thought here: one is that "digital is digital". The other is as you say: quality of the components, even when using a pure digital connection, can make a difference. Let your own ears be the judge.

That said, I think it is clear that there will be much, much less difference between sound quality of different players when using the firewire connection than the analog sections.....if any difference at all.


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post #822 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 08:21 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
How can this be? Surely engineering and quality of components used has to come into play at some point?

Digital is digital. If it reads ones and zeros, and does no conversion, sends ones and zeros, there can be no difference. Unless it's getting read or send errors, which is unlikely IMO. Bit errors would appear not as a minute fidelity diffferences but as pops, etc. If you heard differences between a coax digital and an optical digital, then something else was to blame. It does not matter if the ones and zeros are passed optically or electrically, again unless components are causing bit errors. And bit errors will cause much worse things IMO. THre is no magic with digital. One chip can't make better 1's and 0's than another. It can either read and send them or it can't . Now whatever converts those ones and zeros back to analog for us is a different story. Lots of room for differences there.


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post #823 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 08:25 AM
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That's why people like Kris Deering and me are saying that the 59avi is the "ultimate" digital transport for the price.

2 reasons:

1) 480i over HDMI. You can then use the scaler you want, with the de-interlacer or scaling engine you prefer.

2) Firewire. All sound formats through 1 cable, and your pre/pro or receiver is then doing all the job (BM, TA...) where it should be done.


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post #824 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 05:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by LEVESQUE
That's why people like Kris Deering and me are saying that the 59avi is the "ultimate" digital transport for the price.

2 reasons:

1) 480i over HDMI. You can then use the scaler you want, with the de-interlacer or scaling engine you prefer.

2) Firewire. All sound formats through 1 cable, and your pre/pro or receiver is then doing all the job (BM, TA...) where it should be done.

No disagreement from me there!



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post #825 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 06:03 PM
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Digital is not digital: jitter matters.

www.jitter.de (they are selling a product, but they have the best explanation I've seen)

In one of the the latest UK mag's I read, they did a jitter test of a Denon player to a Denon receiver, and they compared the jitter levels of coax/toslink, vs i.Link vs Denon Link. The jitter levels were not the same. And the worst one was up around 1300 psec which will very likely be audible.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.


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post #826 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 06:29 PM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Kevin C Brown
Digital is not digital: jitter matters.

www.jitter.de (they are selling a product, but they have the best explanation I've seen)

In one of the the latest UK mag's I read, they did a jitter test of a Denon player to a Denon receiver, and they compared the jitter levels of coax/toslink, vs i.Link vs Denon Link. The jitter levels were not the same. And the worst one was up around 1300 psec which will very likely be audible.

The key there is "they are selling". In the digital world, it's a zero or a one. There is no 0.5. At these relatively slow data rates, I don't buy it. Compare these to what the phone company does on it's OC12 sonet rings and these links are slow. At slow speeds, determining if it's a one or a zero is a piece of cake. But I'm no expert, so I'll shut up. Pardon the static.


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post #827 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 08:47 PM
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Ok guys, I know where this is headed. Start a new thread called the jitter bug.
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post #828 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 09:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I will say this much: I am willing to bet a lot of money that I could hook up various players via the firewire connection and nobody would be able to tell a difference in blind listening with any degree of accuracy.


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post #829 of 2187 Old 05-09-2005, 11:39 PM
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The "1" or "0" *can* be offset in the time domain from the original clock creating distortion. Read up a little bit more on it. The effects can be audible if the jitter is high enough. That is fact, and listening tests with different amounts of induced jitter have been done in the past and show that.

Hmmm, the 2.45 GHz data rate of SACD is ... slow? I work in the telecom field, and I should tell my coworkers that. They would just ... chuckle.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.


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post #830 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 03:20 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
this player happens to have firewire on it and then a $3500 player like, say, the Denon 5910 also has firewire...they're BOTH going to sound EXACTLY the same?

How can this be? Surely engineering and quality of components used has to come into play at some point?

well , it can. why not ?

BUT, engineering and quality of components come to play at other areas. The laser generator itself can have pickup error; the spinner itself can have rotation error; the read buffer can have memory error; the power supply can have overheat problem, earth leakage problem; the transmission can have unstable clock error; etc, etc....

So we do get what we pay for. Just that for every $1 better component we are usually paying $10 more.
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post #831 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 05:22 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
I will say this much: I am willing to bet a lot of money that I could hook up various players via the firewire connection and nobody would be able to tell a difference in blind listening with any degree of accuracy.

I'll take that bet if you let me choose the source material and display.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #832 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 07:18 AM
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Why are we going here? Up to this point, this has been an extremely informative database for the 59AVi.

"Guess I'll have to buy the White Album again"
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post #833 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by umr
I'll take that bet if you let me choose the source material and display.

Great!

When are you coming to Southern California?!



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post #834 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 07:36 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Rob Tomlin
Great!

When are you coming to Southern California?!


Whenever you want if the wager is high enough.

oops! I just saw you were discussing firewire audio not firewire video. I think I'll pass on that one.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #835 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 08:25 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by Bluesea
Why are we going here? Up to this point, this has been an extremely informative database for the 59AVi.

On topic:

The Pioneer 59 is easily the best bang for your buck in the <$1000 tier at least. Combine it with a respectable video processor and go 480i HDMI or SDI and you're soaring with the jets.

You'd probably have to spend a considerable amount more of money to get something with appreciably better video quality than what this combination can give you. (Example: Iscan HD+ with a Pioneer 59 is killer!)

It's a time tested, well proven warrior and comes out of the box now with very little flaws, thanks to firmware updates since its release. You really can't go wrong with it if you're in the market for a solid universal player and you don't want to sell off a kidney to get quality.

What more do you need to know?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #836 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 10:10 AM
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Is the $800 premium on the Onkyo SP1000 worth it over the 59AVI whe nit comes to sound/video?.....

Or are any differences/advantages neglibible?....
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post #837 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 10:33 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by dr150
Is the $800 premium on the Onkyo SP1000 worth it over the 59AVI when it comes to sound/video?.....

I thought so.

If you shop around legitimately, it's a lot less than an $800 difference.

YMMV.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #838 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 11:12 AM
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Yes, $800 price difference.........I can get a new SP1000 $1400 shipped vs $600 "B" stock 59AVI.......These are about the best prices out there unless I hear different.

I think sonics are very important, which is why the SP1000 sounds interesting if it lives up to the hype. But the SP1000 would have to be a marked improvement over the 59AVI, which my ignorance suggests isn't possible.

After all, I can have two 59AVIs for the price of one SP1000. The sonic differences doesn't seem compelling from everything I've read (even if it is better, as some suggest).......

Comments?........


P.S. I've also heard good things about redbook play on the Cary DVD-6 unit (for me that's more important than the dying SACD/DVDA formats)...Any comments on this player?.....
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post #839 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 11:15 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by LEVESQUE
That's why people like Kris Deering and me are saying that the 59avi is the "ultimate" digital transport for the price.

2 reasons:

1) 480i over HDMI. You can then use the scaler you want, with the de-interlacer or scaling engine you prefer.

2) Firewire. All sound formats through 1 cable, and your pre/pro or receiver is then doing all the job (BM, TA...) where it should be done.

I thoroughly agree! Finally bought this unit last week after tiring of the wait for the Yamaha. The price point is very enticing and I managed to obtain it for a buck under the current list.

I'm glad I gave away my Zenith DVB318 dvd player. I just got tired of trying to polish a turd. Then again, you get what you pay for.

While the HDMI option is great, I finally have found a new appreciation for 5.1 analog. I'm very please to be able to play all formats of music! (SA, DVD-A, DTS)

Thanks to the actual owners of this unit and your postings. They have been very informative and a great aid during my search for a new dvd player.
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post #840 of 2187 Old 05-10-2005, 11:23 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by dr150
I can get a new SP1000 $1400 shipped vs $600 "B" stock 59AVI.......These are about the best prices out there unless I hear different.

I think sonics are very important, which is why the SP1000 sounds interesting if it lives up to the hype. But the SP1000 would have to be a marked improvement over the 59AVI, which my ignorance suggests isn't possible.

After all, I can have two 59AVIs for the price of one SP1000. The sonic differences doesn't seem compelling from everything I've read (even if it is better, as some suggest).......

Comments?........

My $.02 since I owned both. In my setup the sp1000 was a marked improvement for audio over analog but YMMV. Only you can decide.

If I were looking for video only or had a better PrePro setup for audio then I would have kept the 59avi as the add'l $ would not be warranted IMO.

You may find some b stock SP1000's at Vanns.com for around $1k.
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