Pioneer Elite 59avi Owners Thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Due to the fact that there are currently numerous different threads on the Pioneer Elite 59avi, as well as several members who have indicated that it would make much more sense to have a single, consolidated thread to discuss all aspects of the 59avi to make searching easier, I have decided to start this thread.

I hope that all questions regarding settings, setup, and various issues or problems will be discussed in this thread, instead of having a new thread pop up every other day.

I think this thread should have been started quite a while ago, but it doesn't make sense to "not" do it for that reason either!

I will be editing this post semi-regularly to add relevant information for easy reference.

******************************************************

Firmware check for 59avi:

In Initial Settings->Options, while at this menu press DISPLAY in the remote, at the bottom of the screen you can see the firmware version. There has been 306, 406 and 506.

*****************************************************

Discrete Remote Control codes in MX700 format for 59avi:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...51#post4782551

For MX500: see http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin...vd-dv59avi.zip
****************************************************

When making video adjustments the 59 avi's menu takes up almost the entire screen.Is there a way to make the size of the menu display smaller so you could see more of what you're displaying and trying to adjust?

It's in the manual but easy to miss. When looking at the full page of Video Adjust settings, simply scroll to the item you want to adjust and then hit Display on the remote. That will switch you to a one line display of just that item so that you can get immediate feedback of what changing it is doing to the image.

Up and down arrow in the one line display will switch which item is in the one line display just as if you were scrolling in the big list, and hitting Display on the remote will get you back to the big list. Changing the item will result in an immediate change to the movie image you are seeing in the background. Hitting Enter will make the current setting permanent and will exit Video Adjust.

Remember to hit Enter when you want to leave the Video Adjust display so as to make the changes permanent. If you exit in other fashions, theres a chance the prior setting(s) will get restored over your temporary changes. Frankly I haven't quite figured out Pioneer's logic behind that, so after making changes and exiting, I go back into Video Adjust to double check the changes really "stuck".

The Pioneer manual, in the trouble-shooting section, says that some changes made in Video Adjust will only take effect after the next time you Stop the current disc or open the disc tray, but so far I haven't spotted any such cases. If anyone finds such a case (changing a setting doesn't seem to change anything while the movie is playing but DOES change something if you then Stop the movie and then hit Play again) I'd be interested in hearing about it.

It also says you can lose changes you make if the power fails before the change actually takes effect. Just tossing this in for completeness, as its never been an issue for me.
--Bob

****************************************************

To skip forced trailers at the start of the DVD

In order to get past forced trailers and go directly to the beginning of the movie, simply hit the "stop" button twice in a row while the trailer is playing, then hit "play". The movie will start from the beginning. From that point you can also hit the "menu" button to go to the main DVD menu if desired.

****************************************************

Setting Black levels (and contrast)

See post# 348 by Bob Pariseau: Setting Black Levels

****************************************************

Settings to Avoid White and Black Crush

The player suffers from white crush over HDMI in the default setting. All white information over 235 gets discarded. I've been measuring the HDMI port data, and found one, and only one, setting where the player behaves like it should. That is, outputting reference HDMI-Video levels, no black crush, no white crush and no compression of the signal range.

In the Video Adjust menu:

White Level: All the way to the left (min setting)
Black Level: One notch down from center settings (towards min)
Black Setup: 7.5 IRE
HDMI Color Adjust: Enhanced

All other settings as default for the "HDMI Direct" preset.

Settings for HDMI output were tested for RGB only. Don't know how YCbCr is handled over HDMI.

Carl Sundbom

***************************************************

Additional HDMI settings:

I did some work tonight, and these are my findings.

Tools:
Firmware revision of DVD Player: 1.526
Test patterns: Avia Pro IRE window patterns (from 2.5 IRE to 108.5 IRE)
Video black defined as 7.5 IRE, nominal white as 100 IRE, peak white 108.5 IRE.
Represents DVD content luma values from 6 to 254.
Data analyzer: Lumagen VisionHDP scaler IRE readout feature

Standard vs. Enhanced "HDMI Color Adjust": The "Standard" mode prevents output of any values lower than 16 or higher than 235 over the HDMI port. Assuming we are trying to output what's on the DVD, the only way to make this happen in "Standard" mode is to compress the dynamic range from 1-254 to 16-235 by using the black/white level controls to cram the BtB and WtW content into the 16-235 range. Not recommended, since we will lose fidelity. You will be able to see BtB and WtW if you do this, but you will lose grayscale steps in the middle.

"Enhanced" mode will allow us to output any value from 1-254. Now we just need to map the video black to 16 and nominal white to 235 (still preserving the WtW content up to 254). Since my testing concluded that we need "Enhanced" HDMI Color Adjust to get us in the ballpark, let's look at the other settings.

There is an interaction between the "Black Level" control and the "IRE Set up" control. You can achieve almost the same results by leaving "IRE Set up" at 0, and compensate by raising the "Black Level" control as you can be setting "IRE Set up" to 7.5. However, it's not perfect, and black will end up being a little off from its standard value (a little higher or lower than 16, depending on "Black Level" setting). Setting "IRE Set up" to 7.5 and lowering the black level one notch gets us to perfect video black (luma 16 over HDMI). This will also preserve most of the BtB content (80-90% in my estimation).

The "White Level" control in its default setting will re-sample all content over 235 to whatever the maximum value is. For "Standard", this will be 235, so everything over 235 will be output as 235. For "Enhanced" this will be 254, so everything over 235 will be output as 254. This will also "stretch" the rest of the grayscale, so all values will be too high. Lowering the "White Level" to it's leftmost position will preserve all the steps between 235 and 254. The "stretching" of the grayscale is also avoided to a large degree.

The settings I ended up with are the same as the ones I listed earlier. They are as close as I could get, but they're not perfect. There is still a slight "stretch". A value of 6 on the DVD would be output as 5 or 4, and a value of 251 on the DVD would be output as 254. There is clearly some re-sampling going on, no matter what settings are used. I doubt this will have any real effects watching a movie. An SDI mod may be the only way to get the 59-Avi to output a pristine "DVD perfect" signal, but from what I've seen so far, this is one heck of a player

A couple of more points of clarification.

1. The 'HDMI Color Adjust' defines the output range. Standard is 16-235 and Enhanced is 1-254. I think this control is a misguided attempt at implementing Video vs PC levels. "Standard" set video black at 16, and nominal white at 235, alright, but it compresses all BtB data into 16 and all WtW data into 235. Since the whole point of running Video instead of PC levels is to pass BtB and WtW, this is clearly a design flaw.

2. The black level control defines the value of black. This should be 16 over HDMI. It doesn't operate like a normal brightness control, which would move the entire video range up and down. Moving it up only compresses values in the midrange. Nominal white doesn't move when you increase black level.

3. The white level control should be renamed to "white crush control". All it does is define what values should be output with the maximum luma value. By default, it defines everything from 235 to 254 to be 254 (in Enhanced mode). Rasing the white level control pulls even more values in to be 254. It also "pulls" the rest of the range with it, increasing the difference between between the mid grays. So how much white crush do you want? Now you have a choice!

Carl Sundbom
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post #2 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 08:13 PM
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I received one as a Christmas present this year. I've been in Maui since 12/29 so I have not had a chance yet to set it up with my 55TXi receiver and my 730HD RPTV.

Looking forward to enjoying the upgrade in video and audio connectivity.
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post #3 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 08:17 PM
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Good for you, Rob!

I've owned my 59avi since July and so far have very little reason to regret the purchase. I believe I can see the ICP defect in the Snell chart on DVE but it has yet to be a problem for me in the video based DVDs I own. Having to manually change Pure Cinema mode for discs exhibiting the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem has been a non-issue for me as well.

I still don't like the 59avi's remote, but since I've got it programmed into a Pronto, I hardly ever use the player's remote anyway.

My biggest puzzle with the player is that I have yet to figure out what HDMI Color Adjust = Enhanced mode is SUPPOSED to be used for.

If anyone has saved links to some of my previous posts on adjusting and enjoying the 59avi, feel free to post the links here.
--Bob

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post #4 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Thats a great idea regarding copying and pasting some of your prior posts here Bob!

I was wondering about the Enhanced mode for the color adjust in the HDMI menu as well. It definitely seems to make the color more saturated. All my calibration with DVE is in the standard mode.

bsprtsgrp- congrats! I think you will really enjoy this player!
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post #5 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 08:29 PM
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Rob,
As best I can tell, setting it to Enhanced only raises color saturation until you realize you need to re-calibrate the basic levels. After you re-calibrate there's no change I can detect in color, tint, or the color decoder. Instead the Enhanced mode seems to primarily affect Black and White levels, which makes no sense. Now I'm hooked up HDMI to DVI, so I suspect this "feature" only has useful effect if you are connected HDMI to HDMI, but I can't begin to guess what it is really trying to do.
--Bob

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post #6 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 08:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Here is some info that was posted in another thread that is very useful:

Originally posted by Kage:

Quote:


I recently got the Pioneer DV-59AVi with a build date of November 2004 and I have questions on the pure cinema modes.
1) What is the difference of each pure cinema modes?
2) Does each pure cinema mode affect picture quality?
3) Which pure cinema mode is excellent for films?

Response by Bob Pariseau:

Quote:


Pure Cinema ON forces film mode processing.

Pure Cinema OFF forces video mode processing.

Pure Cinema AUTO1 and AUTO2 are two different styles of automatic processing where the player attempts to determine on the fly whether any given scene was originally film or video based and to "do the right thing".

This is important stuff because the frame rate for film and video content is different (24 frames/sec vs. 30 frames/sec) and getting it wrong will produce artifacts in the image when de-interlacing is done. For examples of what can go wrong, see the very detailed write-ups in the DVD benchmarks section of the Secrets of Home Theater web site. Or more simply, leave Pure Cinema set to OFF while watching a typical DVD movie and you will start seeing combing and such yourself.

The factory default setting is AUTO1. The Secrets tests of the early production 59avi indicated that AUTO2 did a better job handling certain problematic DVDs. You can read the writeup in the Secrets test of the 59avi from early 2004 for details.

I originally recommended sticking with the factory default setting of AUTO1 because I had had such great results with the other factory default settings for HDMI output from the 59avi and because I thought I had detected some problems when I used AUTO2 as an experiment. I've recently tried this experiment again and can find none of the defects I thought I saw before, and so based on the original Secrets testing I too now recommend using AUTO2 as your default setting just in case you happen to pop in a DVD that has one or the other of the content problems that Secrets found AUTO2 handled better.

I should point out that I haven't personally seen AUTO2 do anything BETTER than AUTO1 either, but I trust that the Secrets tests really did reveal cases where AUTO2 worked better.

That leaves two problems that Secrets found. First, some video based material will exhibit the ICP problem. There is no workaround for this in the 59avi. I don't happen to see it in video content I'm watching, but the vast vast majority of my DVDs are film based so that's probably just me.

The other problem is the "alternating 3:2 flags" problem which is most commonly reported on some older Disney DVDs. There IS a workaround for this one.

Once the movie starts playing, hit Display twice on the remote to show the second page of the on-screen display. In the lower left of that screen is a "#" symbol indicating film mode processing in effect. If that "#" symbol is flashing, then this DVD has this problem. In such case, go into the video adjust settings and change Pure Cinema to ON for this DVD. In all other cases ("#" solidly on, or "#" solidly off) you should leave Pure Cinema in your default setting -- which I now recommend to be AUTO2.

The details of what AUTO2 and AUTO1 are designed to do differently is not exactly clear to me. My original assumption was that AUTO2 was designed for working better in the presence of European, PAL-video based DVDs and was also less sensitive to the proper presence of film mode flags in the DVD content. I'm not sure if that's precisely correct. But in any event, I use AUTO2 exclusively now (except when the "#" flashes) and have found no reason to want to go back to AUTO1.
--Bob

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post #7 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:


Originally posted by Bob Pariseau
Rob,
As best I can tell, setting it to Enhanced only raises color saturation until you realize you need to re-calibrate the basic levels. After you re-calibrate there's no change I can detect in color, tint, or the color decoder. Instead the Enhanced mode seems to primarily affect Black and White levels, which makes no sense. Now I'm hooked up HDMI to DVI, so I suspect this "feature" only has useful effect if you are connected HDMI to HDMI, but I can't begin to guess what it is really trying to do.
--Bob

Very interesting!

We are lucky to have someone here who actually takes the time to test things like this!

I have my 59avi going HDMI to DVI, and the Enhanced setting still has the effect I described....but I never bothered recalibrating via DVE (although it is obvious that you would need to do so).

In what way does it seem to affect the Black and White levels?
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post #8 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 08:43 PM
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I don't have the details at hand any more but basically the recalibration required dramatically raising blacks and lowering whites or the other way around. The apparent perceptual change in saturation was due to whites/blacks being way off until you recalibrate.
--Bob

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post #9 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 09:29 PM
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Hey guys I hooked up my 59 AVi and I am very impressed. I am running it HDMI to DVI into my Mits 65813 and the picture is great. I calibrated it with DVE and the overall picture is very similar to my 2900 thru component. I have looked at the DVE patterns at 480p and 1080i and what I have noticed is that at 480p there is very little edge enhancement or noise almost identicle to my 2900 at 480p, but at 1080i it seems a whole other level of noise and edge enhancement is introduced into the patterns and it is enough to be noticeble. I have all the settings at the direct setting for HDMI eccept for auto 2. I know my Mits has an slight halo effect with my 2900 but with the 59 at 1080i it is much more pronounced and that is why I bought the 59. I like having no scan lines visible. I was wondering if any of the other adjustments would help this without ruining the sharpness of the image.

Thanks

Monte
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post #10 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 09:55 PM
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dvdmann,
This is something you should be able to control via the Sharpness control on your TV. It's not surprising that the set is doing something different when fed 480p vs. 1080i via the same input. You should recheck your calibration for each resolution.

First make sure you don't have any edge enhancement "feature" turned on in your Mits. This may require you to switch to a different picture mode if there's no specific control. You want a picture mode labeled something like "movies" instead of anything labeled, "vivid", "dynamic", "sports", or the like. If in doubt, select the picture mode that appears to start off with the DARKEST and SOFTEST looking image. Select the proper picture mode BEFORE you calibrate, just in case there's stuff going on in the background when you make that selection that you can't alter via the other available user controls.

Having selected the proper picture mode on your TV, double check that there are no other edge enhancement options still turned on. If there are any turned on, turn them all off in your TV. They are in there for handling lower quality video. You want to calibrate for the high quality signal you'll be getting from the 59avi. While you are at it, turn off any other "features" that modify basic adjustments on the fly or attempt to correct for crappy input signals such as "flesh tone correction", "automatic gain control", "velocity modulation", "noise reduction", etc. etc. Turn them all off. After you've calibrated, you can play with turning them back on if you'd like, but you'll likely be happier if you LEAVE them all turned OFF.

With all that turned off, NOW re-calibrate with DVE.

As far as setting Sharpness, for the high-bandwidth signal coming in on the HDMI connection, what you want to concentrate on is precisely the halos you are seeing. Look specifically at vertical black lines in the resolution or sharpness chart. Turn the sharpness way up and you should see distinct white halos around those lines indicating that "ringing" is occurring. Now turn the Sharpness all the way off and those halos should vanish but the lines should fuzzy up a bit. What you want to do is turn Sharpness up slowly to reduce the fuzzies, but stop before the first hint of white halo returns.

The proper setting for Sharpness will likely be well below the factory default setting. It will likely be in the lower third of the available range. Some folks find they need to turn Sharpness all the way off, but that's fairly rare. If you have to choose between two settings, pick the lower one even though that might leave the lines a little fuzzier than you think is correct.

That's the proper Sharpness setting.

If you are used to having Sharpness turned higher, it will take a while to get used to the image with Sharpness set properly. Give it time. The higher Sharpness you thought you saw at the old setting was really "false detail" and "ringing" that was actually obscuring the real detail in the image. After you get used to it the advantages will be obvious. Remember that most movies are filmed to have a soft look.
--Bob

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post #11 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 10:05 PM
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Hey Bob, I am very aware of all of the things you mention. Everything including the sharpness on the Mits is turned all the way down or off. I think the 1080i signal is doing something because the HDMI 480p signal from the 59 is great just like my 2900. But when I change resolutions to 1080i that is when the additional noise and edge enhancement is present. I think the upscaling is causing the additional noise an somehow enhancing the ringing. Should I try to adjust the HDMI settings in the 59.

Thanks,

Monte
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post #12 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 10:25 PM
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dvdmann,
Well, I get a clean signal from my 59avi at 1080i using the default "HDMI Direct" settings, and I believe others have found their 1080i outputs clean as well. But there is an "HDMI Detail" control in those settings on the 59avi that can be turned down, as well as separate Sharpness controls for different frequency ranges. As usual, load the HDMI Direct settings into a Memory and you can fiddle with those controls from there.

It certainly would be worth a try to see if you can fix this from the 59avi side, but I suspect you may find out your Mits has ringing in its internal video signal path at 1080i. The easy experiment would be to turn all those settings all the way down on the 59avi and see if it alters the halos.

If not, then you may need to address this in the Mits' service menu (i.e., with a calibration tech).

You might also want to take your 59avi to a store or to a friend's house where you can hook it up via HDMI 1080i to another HDTV-ready TV, just to verify you don't have a problem with your 59avi.
--Bob

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post #13 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 11:30 PM
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Be neat to get how to look up the firmware rev in here. And also I think there was a post where Bob talked about the IRE setting. How to deal with anamorphic vs non-anamorphic DVDs and aspect ratio on the display, etc. Maybe even a little of the HDMI/iScan stuff. I am also quite happy with mine. The layer change could be improved some, but for the price and what *else* you get, I'm not complaining too much.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... Something old and something new :-)

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post #14 of 2187 Old 01-11-2005, 11:45 PM
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Here are some of the informative posts I've been Subscribed to since getting this player for Christmas:

Cinema Mode Questions
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=493680

HDMI 16:9 Questions
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=487120
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=485769
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=469997

HDMI Upscaling
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=479776

Settings
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=476594
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=471258

HDMI Settings then DVD-R playing
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=492040

DVD-R playing
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=490709

Mainly Firmware Questions
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=482641

Y-C Delay
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=487120

Discrete IR Codes
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=474587

Many thanks to Bob, Rob and Kevin for all their input on these threads.

"One of the problems of taking things apart and seeing how they work--supposing you're trying to find out how a cat works--you take that cat apart to see how it works, what you've got in your hands is a non-working cat."
-- Douglas Adams
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post #15 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 05:44 AM
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Rob-I'm glad you started this thread. I will use this link in other 59avi threads and ask that they post here with comments and questions.

Bob: As always, the information is appreciated. The consolidation of 59 threads to one should give you an extra hour in your day....hopefully to enjoy in your HT.

Paul: Excellent work with all thos important links....you have made every newbie's life a little easier by doing the searching for them.

Ron

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post #16 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 05:52 AM
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Denon 3910 owner here...

just reading and learning about the 59avi....I like to learn about the "other" winner of the Secrets DVD player(s) of the year
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post #17 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 06:16 AM
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I have been reading about the 59 avi and it's audio DAC's but was
wondering that if you use a digital connection(coax or optical)
to your pre-pro aren't these not used and essentially useless?
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Quote:


Originally posted by RONM
I have been reading about the 59 avi and it's audio DAC's but was
wondering that if you use a digital connection(coax or optical)
to your pre-pro aren't these not used and essentially useless?

Maybe I don't fully understand your question....but, for those of us whoe bought the player for it's dvd playback/PQ, I use the digital coax audio exclusively. I have no need for the different audio formats, but wanted the best PQ for the dollar amount. I believe that is the 59avi.

Ron

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post #19 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 07:21 AM
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I will try to be more specific.When playing red book cd's or dvd's you
would use typical analog connections for audio or a digital connection
(audio coax or optical cable).The way I understand it is that if you are using
analog then digital to analog conversion is happening and quality DAC's
would be a good thing.However if your connection is digital for these
sources(cd's,dvd's)then there is no digital to analog conversion and
DAC's of the 59avi are not being used and your pre-pro does the work.
Given the price of this player perhaps this is something to consider if
your pre-pro can match the Pioneers quality DAC,s.
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post #20 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 07:50 AM
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Bob. I appreciate your valuable input. I have adjusted the controls in the 59 and it did seen to help but the picture got softer as well. I have noticed something that I find unusual when going through the DVE resolution patterns title 13 chapter 3, Multiburst, Vertical. The lower left lines and the upper right lines on the screen (these seem to be the same resolutions) have a very noticeable jitter in them. All of the other lines on the screen are fairly stable but the 2 narrowest set of lines on the screen (lower left and upper right) have this really obvious shaking. When I switch to HDMI 480p from the 59 the lines are rock solid as well as when I use 480p from my 2900. Do you have any idea what this means?.

Thanks, Monte
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post #21 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 08:02 AM
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Where do we see or get into "Pure Cinema" mode to adjust AUTO1 or AUTO2?

Daniel
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post #22 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 08:12 AM
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Home Menu
Video Adjust
Select Memory 1, 2 or 3
Detailed Settings
you will see the Pure Cinema selection
set from the Default Auto 1 to Auto 2

pages 60-61 in the Manual

"One of the problems of taking things apart and seeing how they work--supposing you're trying to find out how a cat works--you take that cat apart to see how it works, what you've got in your hands is a non-working cat."
-- Douglas Adams
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post #23 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 09:43 AM
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dvdmann,
Are these thin, horizontal lines (I forget which way that chart is organized)? If so, you are probably seeing the effects of the interlaced signal at 1080i since the problem goes away when you switch to a progressive signal. If your display supports 720p you should try that one as well.

---------------------------------------------------------------

EDITED TO UPDATE: Dvdmann, I just checked that test chart on DVE using my 59avi sending 1080i to my Fujitsu plasma and there is no jitter. This would add evidence that what you are seeing on your display is the effects of the interlacing in a 1080i signal, since my Fujitsu de-interlaces and scales a 1080i signal to a progressive signal nearer to 720p. I.e., the 59avi is not sending bad data out at 1080i, it's just that your eye is picking up the flicker of thin horizontal lines appearing and disappearing according to which field of the interlaced frame is currently being displayed and whether or not that line happens to be in that field or the other field.

The extra spatial resolution of 1080i doesn't come without the costs of it's interlaced nature.
--Bob

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post #24 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 11:30 AM
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Quote:


Originally posted by tpaxadpom
Here is a list of movies that I found problems using Auto2 setting.
If you can get your hands on "The Bourne Identity" there is one chapter that opens up showing multiple buildings. Use it to compare Auto1 to Auto2 settings.
In the movie "The League" look at chapter 4 (14min and 53s) take a look at the bookshelves.
There is another one in Shrek 2. It's a chapter that opens up with the tree at a night time (I'll find it tomorrow if you want me to). You can see jaggies on branches with Auto 2 setting. This one if the hardest one of all to see.
Anyway these are my observations. Check and see for yourself whether they show up on your system or not. Don't take me wrong I do trust the settings recommended by Secrets (I was initially using Auto2), but once I noticed the problem and switched to Auto1 they seem to disappear.

tpaxadpom,
I only have Shrek2 out of those discs, so I went looking for the scene in question. I believe you are talking about the start of Chapter 6, where the King is going to the inn to hire Puss in Boots. The Chapter starts with an establishing shot of the branches of a dead tree highlighted in front of a full moon. The camera then starts to pan down to pick up the sign of the inn and the path to the inn.

Now if you repeatedly Chapter Back to restart that scene over and over again, and concentrate on the branches that are across the face of the moon, then as the camera starts to pan down you will see a brief period of combing in those branches. This is visible when Pure Cinema is set to AUTO2, but is not visible (the image is clean) when Pure Cinema is set to AUTO1.

If this is what you were seeing, then you have good eyes!

However, try the following experiment: Instead of using Chapter Back to restart the scene, use Reverse Scan to back up into the end of the previous Chapter. Now hit Play and let the previous Chapter end and transition into Chapter 6.

If you play past the start of Chapter 6 in that fashion, there is no combing in either AUTO2 or AUTO1 mode!

AUTO1 uses flag data on the DVD to pick up the need to do film mode processing, and thus gets it right from the first frame of the Chapter.

AUTO2, on the other hand, needs a few frames to pick up the actual frame cadence, and thus it gets this particular Chapter start wrong -- but only if you restart the Chapter as opposed to playing the movie normally (where it defaults to the film cadence it already had in place from the end of the previous chapter).

You might try this trick with your other two discs and see if the problems you are seeing with AUTO2 in those cases can also be ascribed to AUTO2 needing to get re-started properly because of how you are viewing and reviewing that scene. I.e., that there's no problem with AUTO2 if you let the movie play through normally.

If I've scoped this out correctly, I would still continue to recommend that people use AUTO2 as their default Pure Cinema mode.
--Bob

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post #25 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 12:17 PM
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Bob thanks for checking this out. So it is safe to assume that this perception of jitter is normal for a 1080i signal on any display that displays 1080i at 1080i. I just wanted to be sure that it is not a defect in the 59 or my 65813. Your explanation makes good sense and it would be nice if another 59 avi owner could verify this same jitter on their display viewing a 1080 HDMI signal from the 59avi into their display viewing it at a 1080i display rate. Maybe someone else will chime in.

Thanks again Bob.

Monte
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post #26 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 02:05 PM
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I have noticed the same problem with jitter feeding 1080i when I was calibrating my friends TV (Pioneer Pro-530HDi) using VE(I don't have DVE calibration disc). It was 6.75 MHz circle with horizontal lines that was expiriencing this problem. I was going back and forth between 480p component video, 480p HDMI and 1080i. The problem only appeared in 1080i mode. Then after I've changed some settings on the player (or possibly turn the unit off and back on) this problem dissapeared. I own Pioneer Elite Pro-730HDi and have never noticed the same problem again (I run 1080i all the time with all settings at default except Pure Cinema - Auto2).
Bob, I will look further into this. Perfect observation, all of the problems I've mentioned show up in the beginning of the chapter. Thanks for your time.
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post #27 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 07:47 PM - Thread Starter
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You know, I am really impressed with this players PQ! Watched another movie last night, and I am just continually impressed.

This got me thinking, despite all the great comments and reviews you hear about using an external scaler such as the DVDO iScan HD+, I can't help but wonder how much improvement, if any, there actually would be? I mean, if I am not seeing any artifacts (at least none that I would think are caused by de-interlacing or scaling) how is an external scaler going to help?

The iScan HD+ will supposedly support HDMI 480i eventually, which is a big advantage to us 59avi owners since we wouldn't need to do an SDI mod or purchase the iScan with that option, saving hundreds of dollars. But even then, the iScan HD+ isn't exactly cheap, and would still cost more than what we probably paid for the 59avi itself.

Looking for comments here!
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post #28 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 08:03 PM
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Rob, you're gonna end up hijacking your own 59avi thread! (grin!)

In addition to error free de-interlacing and scaling, the Iscan units offer the ability to get a precise pixel match to your display -- both in terms of no pixel cropping and in terms of generating the native resolution of the display. Now of course that's not going to do you much good unless you have a display that can accept its true, native resolution instead of one of the standard resolutions. Typically this means you are in the realm of the heavily tweakable, high end front projection systems.

In addition the Iscans will help solve a variety of mismatch problems between player and display.

Bytehoven has a recent thread where he did some detailed comparisons -- not against a 59avi as I recall, but no matter -- and you can search for that one to see the sorts of precision improvements he found.

The bottom line is that you are pushing the limits of what can possibly be done with a 480i signal off a DVD, so some of the improvements, albeit real and measureable, may not be visible unless you have (1) a trained eye, and (2) a big display.

------------------------------------------------

That said, the 59avi does produce a sweet image.

I suspect when all is said and done we are at the stage when we are seeing subtle defects of one player against another, as is often the case for example when comparing high end speakers. Any one of these top notch players should make any owner happy, but you may prefer the design choices made by one set of engineers over another. Iscan is just such another approach.
--Bob

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post #29 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 08:08 PM
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Rob: I've struggle with the same issues that you layed out so well in your thread. What it comes down to for me is the percentage improvement that I would see for the money wouldn't be a good investment. Then you add into the equation that hd resolution players are right around the corner, it's hard to make that additional $1,300 investment ($400 for SDI mod and $900 for HD Iscan). I really think the only reason I even consider it is the pending hardware war between HD-DVD and Blu Ray players.

Another point I agree with is my on-going appreciation for the 59avi's PQ. One area that love is the lack of video noise...this drives me nuts and this player is one of the best I've ever seen in handling it.

Ron

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post #30 of 2187 Old 01-12-2005, 08:30 PM
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I have a two questions about this player. This player is connected with component cables in 480p mode on a Sony 36 inch HDTV that does not have HDMI or DVI inputs. I'm going to get a new Sony LCD rear projection HDTV or a JVC DILA TV in early February.

1. I have a November 2004 build 59avi, and how to I read the Y/C delay chart in AVIA to know if my 59avi has Y/C delay?
2. When I calibrated the 59avi with DVE in movie mode on my Sony 36 inch HDTV, for some reason the pq is soft, not bright enough, and contrast seems a bit off, and colors seem muted, how to I fix this for the best possible picture? When I compared this dvd player in vivid mode in my tv that has been calibrated, vivid mode seems more punchy, but I see more artifacts with this mode.
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