Denon 5910 vs Onkyo SP1000 Pro Review - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 09:38 AM
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This only goes to prove that good old fashioned hands....or rather eyes and ears testing are the only way to go.

If the 1000 is not rated higher than the cheaply built 59avi for video....and audio.....this not only goes against all actual review and pro direct comparisons...it goes againt most peoples experience in there own direct comparisons.

No matter what the secrets scores end up, the fact is the 3910 even without macro blocking and the 59avi.....are on a lower tier...... in every meaningful category except the ones that are not relevant to most imo.
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post #92 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
Assuming all this holds and the Onkyo doesn't "screw up" over HDMI, as you put it...for my education...how in the world does the Pioneer 59 do better over HDMI than the Onkyo 1000?

And I'd love to understand your component list better. I know the Arcam is a beast, but two <$1000 Panasonics also do better over component? I know those Pannys are hallowed gods in the DVD realm but...????

Please educate me. I just want to understand all of this better. :)
Kris stated that CUE issues are the player's Achilles Heel.
Monsters Inc shows 3:2 alt flag clear as day. Same as my Denon 2200.
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post #93 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Earz
This only goes to prove that good old fashioned hands....or rather eyes and ears testing are the only way to go.

If the 1000 is not rated higher than the cheaply built 59avi for video....and audio.....this not only goes against all actual review and pro direct comparisons...it goes againt most peoples experience in there own direct comparisons.

No matter what the secrets scores end up, the fact is the 3910 even without macro blocking and the 59avi.....are on a lower tier...... in every meaningful category except the ones that are not relevant to most imo.
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Quote:
Originally posted by mimason
Kris stated that CUE issues are the players Achilles Heel. If you get an Iscan HD/HD+ then you've got #2 in the bag. ;)

Monsters Inc shows 3:2 alt flag clear as day. Same as my Denon 2200.
I'll cross that bridge after I finally upgrade my display in a few months. :) An Iscan might be a 2006 expense, if I deem it necessary. We shall see...

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #94 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 09:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
Assuming all this holds and the Onkyo doesn't "screw up" over HDMI, as you put it...for my education...how in the world does the Pioneer 59 do better over HDMI than the Onkyo 1000?

The difference is because of the MPEG decoder. Both DVD players are
using different ones. What I understand from Kris' post and reviews
is that the MPEG decoder in the Pioneer masks the CUE better than the one from the Onkyo.

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post #95 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Earz

If the 1000 is not rated higher than the cheaply built 59avi for video....and audio.....this not only goes against all actual review and pro direct comparisons...it goes againt most peoples experience in there own direct comparisons.
I've heard over and over again that the 59avi is 'cheaply built'. I'm not trying to be fanboy or anything, but I do own the 59avi and would like an explanation regarding how it is cheaply built. Just because it doesn't weight in excess of 30 pounds, that does not mean it is cheaply built. I mean I understand a decent power supply and proper shielding does account for the quality of a player and does, in an indirect fasion, translate to weight. But judging a player by it's heft is probably even worse than judging a player solely by the scores it receives on these tests.
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post #96 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by UMD_Terp
I've heard over and over again that the 59avi is 'cheaply built'. I'm not trying to be fanboy or anything, but I do own the 59avi and would like an explanation regarding how it is cheaply built. Just because it doesn't weight in excess of 30 pounds, that does not mean it is cheaply built. I mean I understand a decent power supply and proper shielding does account for the quality of a player and does, in an indirect fasion, translate to weight. But judging a player by it's heft is probably even worse than judging a player solely by the scores it receives on these tests.
I wouldn't say the 59avi is "cheaply" built....I think is fine and well made. But, when you put them side by side with,say, the 3910 or SP1000, it definitely shows that it is not as big, robust, the loading mechanism not as good and firm, the connectors in the back, etc, etc, are just not in the same level. The weight is actually a pretty big factor as well, since for videophile people, every small vibration could contribute to their "perception" that it affects PQ. I for one, do think that the heavier players minimize vibrations.



Q of BanditZ , I certainly respect your "list"...it's your list so you are the king of it :D ...but just wondering how you could perceive the 59avi to be better than the 3910 or 5900/9000 in AUDIO? I think they are not even close.... Video wise, you can make an argument about the 59avi vs 3910 for sure, but audio? even better than the 5900/9000 ?:eek:
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post #97 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:33 AM
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Man I knew I shouldn't have posted that stuff. I was afraid this would start to go into a downward spiral. I never said the SP1000 wasn't a great player, in fact I said it was.

Quote:
I agree with you that CUE issues are so anoying, but at least to
me the macroblocking it is as bad as the CUE. And I think
that it should be consider as part of the tests and scores.
I have been trying to figure out how to go about this. I agree completely that the MB is as important as CUE. In fact, I think it is a far worse problem. The problem is, CUE manifest on EVERY display, MB doesn't. So lets say I write up a review and a consumer that doesn't know much about this stuff reads it who DOESN'T have a display that shows macroblocking. He reads my review that says this player is not recommended but with his display it would look outstanding. What then? You see my issue here? I have been trying my best to figure it out, but it isn't as simple as most people think. Supposedly Genesis/Faroudja have fixed the problem and the new chips that they are producing don't have the bug anymore. But I have not seen the new chips in players yet so I have to take that with a grain of salt.

CUE on the other hand manifests itself REGARDLESS.

Quote:
Assuming all this holds and the Onkyo doesn't "screw up" over HDMI, as you put it...for my education...how in the world does the Pioneer 59 do better over HDMI than the Onkyo 1000?
Because the Pioneer doesn't have the CUE issues of the Onkyo. It has issues of its own, but they aren't to the level I saw with the Onkyo. And remember, I was ONLY referring to video performance. I am not talking about build, audio, blah, blah, blah. I was only stating video performance over a certain output.

Quote:
And I'd love to understand your component list better. I know the Arcam is a beast, but two <$1000 Panasonics also do better over component? I know those Pannys are hallowed gods in the DVD realm but...????
Sorry, those two Panasonics are amazing machines and you obviously still think that price dictates video performance, it doesn't. From STRICKLY A VIDEO standpoint, those players are phenominal over component video.

The Arcam is easily better then the Onkyo via component. Same video processor, but better MPEG decoder. In fact, I bet an audio comparison would be closer then most on this board think. That Arcam player is phenominal.

Quote:
This only goes to prove that good old fashioned hands....or rather eyes and ears testing are the only way to go.

If the 1000 is not rated higher than the cheaply built 59avi for video....and audio.....this not only goes against all actual review and pro direct comparisons...it goes againt most peoples experience in there own direct comparisons.
And this is why I keep saying the benchmark is a guide. Find out what player works the best for you. Find out which hits we find that don't matter to you and ignore them. I am not trying to belittle any SP1000 owners here, I just have to report what I find. If you like the 59AVi less then the SP1000, GREAT!! Everyone has different needs and different opinions. I just do tests and report the results. Obviously there are enough reviews out there to help justify your purchase, regardless of what player you bought.

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post #98 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:36 AM
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The Marantz DV 9500 doesn't make it to top 5 level then? Does it make the top ten?

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post #99 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:39 AM
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I did like the Marantz, it is by far their best player yet. It is right up there with these players in terms of performance. Just a hair under the SP1000. The Onkyo and Pioneer units have better video processors. But the 9500 is no slouch.

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post #100 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
Man I knew I shouldn't have posted that stuff. I was afraid this would start to go into a downward spiral. I never said the SP1000 wasn't a great player, in fact I said it was.



I have been trying to figure out how to go about this. I agree completely that the MB is as important as CUE. In fact, I think it is a far worse problem. The problem is, CUE manifest on EVERY display, MB doesn't. So lets say I write up a review and a consumer that doesn't know much about this stuff reads it who DOESN'T have a display that shows macroblocking. He reads my review that says this player is not recommended but with his display it would look outstanding. What then? You see my issue here? I have been trying my best to figure it out, but it isn't as simple as most people think. Supposedly Genesis/Faroudja have fixed the problem and the new chips that they are producing don't have the bug anymore. But I have not seen the new chips in players yet so I have to take that with a grain of salt.

CUE on the other hand manifests itself REGARDLESS.



Because the Pioneer doesn't have the CUE issues of the Onkyo. It has issues of its own, but they aren't to the level I saw with the Onkyo. And remember, I was ONLY referring to video performance. I am not talking about build, audio, blah, blah, blah. I was only stating video performance over a certain output.



Sorry, those two Panasonics are amazing machines and you obviously still think that price dictates video performance, it doesn't. From STRICKLY A VIDEO standpoint, those players are phenominal over component video.

The Arcam is easily better then the Onkyo via component. Same video processor, but better MPEG decoder. In fact, I bet an audio comparison would be closer then most on this board think. That Arcam player is phenominal.



And this is why I keep saying the benchmark is a guide. Find out what player works the best for you. Find out which hits we find that don't matter to you and ignore them. I am not trying to belittle any SP1000 owners here, I just have to report what I find. If you like the 59AVi less then the SP1000, GREAT!! Everyone has different needs and different opinions. I just do tests and report the results. Obviously there are enough reviews out there to help justify your purchase, regardless of what player you bought.


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Kris, don't worry about the comments in the forum...I think everyone here really appreciate your work and your comments, no matter how good/bad you comment on our "own" players....

I think everyone is sensitive to the "how come player XX is better than my player YY" syndrome...is just natural.

So, please, by all means, continue to say it like it is....we all appreciate it. Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, and many can have a slightly different opinion than yours as well, but I think it is great that we hear some hard comments from someone who has done extensive tests on most of these players!!!

AWESOME job....Thank you!

I for one, don't exactly agree that the 59avi and 3910 have "equal" PQ, given my own audition (I thought the 3910 was slightly better over HDMI), but I still learned a lot from these forums and from your tests and suggestions....

keep them coming!!!http://forum.e90fanatics.com/images/smilies/thumb.gif
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post #101 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Kris, Actually you are providing what everyone wants to hear even though it's not what some want to believe. I love it.

Thanks and keep it up.
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post #102 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mimason
Kris, Actually you are providing what everyone wants to hear even though it's not what some want to believe. I love it.

Thanks and keep it up.
as my neighbor's kid says all the time...... WORD!

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post #103 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:57 AM
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Kris,
You could always re-do the benchmark so that when you go to view it, it asks which player you own.
Then the benchmark would automatically put that player at the top of the list.
Then nobody would get their panties in a wad cause the player they own would always be best. And take out all those silly tests you do and use words like "smokes it" and "it was sooooo much better" ;)
(cough, sarcasm, cough)
Really, thanks for the hard work. The benchmark is a Great resource!
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post #104 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 10:59 AM
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I am actually thinking of getting rid of the score system as I don't like it. Just have the pass fail results of each player and then the writeup. I am going to be adding new tests soon anyways. We are going to play around with it and see what we like.

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post #105 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Kris, That's a tough decision. People always want statistics. Look at all the mags and reviews. You may just consider disclaimer for each review but I guess you are already doing that.

Also, are you going to contact Onkyo about the issues you discover? I wonder if they would be receptive at all.
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post #106 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
I am actually thinking of getting rid of the score system as I don't like it. Just have the pass fail results of each player and then the writeup. I am going to be adding new tests soon anyways. We are going to play around with it and see what we like.
That's an excellent idea. That's an easy move that eliminates any potential "misperceptions" and the raw data can simply speak for itself up or down.

Quote:
Kris Deering wrote:

Sorry, those two Panasonics are amazing machines and you obviously still think that price dictates video performance, it doesn't. From STRICTLY A VIDEO standpoint, those players are phenominal over component video.


Please don't put words in my mouth. You couldn't be more dead wrong on that count.

I know how legendary those Panasonic are over component video. I was just expressing my genuine amazement at how the chips fell. I didn't accuse you of any falsehood.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #107 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 11:12 AM
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Sorry if I misunderstood. Your post made me think you were questioning the results based on their price. Sorry.

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post #108 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
Sorry if I misunderstood. Your post made me think you were questioning the results based on their price. Sorry.
A year later, look at what thread still sits in my sig. Look who authored it. ;)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #109 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
I am actually thinking of getting rid of the score system as I don't like it. Just have the pass fail results of each player and then the writeup. I am going to be adding new tests soon anyways. We are going to play around with it and see what we like.
Kris,

I think this will be much better. In this way you can get away on evaluating
the Macroblocking issue.

You as always have done a great job and I think we needed an
opinion like yours on evaluating this player.

Regards,

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post #110 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 02:08 PM
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dvd video performance IS tied to display.

I have denon 2910 and the onkyo.
I cannot use the 2910 on my Kirk sammy because of MB.
The onkyo, however, looks great on it.
The denon is hooked up to my sony XBR where it looks very good.
And no MB either.

It really does come down to the matching of player and display.

Thanx again Kris for all your hard work and patience.

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post #111 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by oink
dvd video performance IS tied to display.

I have denon 2910 and the onkyo.
I cannot use the 2910 on my Kirk sammy because of MB.
The onkyo, however, looks great on it.
The denon is hooked up to my sony XBR where it looks very good.
And no MB either.

It really does come down to the matching of player and display.


So true!

Quote:


Thanx again Kris for all your hard work and patience.
:)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #112 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering

Yes you read that right. And that is because of MB. If your display doesn't show it though:
1. Denon 5910
2. Denon 3910/Pioneer 59AVi tie
4. Onkyo SP1000
5. Panasonic S97
Kris

About the 59avi. I know you are testing a "newer" 59avi... So was your ranking based on the latest firmware revision (fixing the Y/C delay), or only on your first evaluation back then?

The 59avi paired with a 480i over HDMI scaler, like the Lumagen, the upcoming Algolith Dragonfly and some others, is a really good transport at 480i over HDMI, and a totally different player.
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post #113 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mimason
Kris, Actually you are providing what everyone wants to hear even though it's not what some want to believe. I love it.

Thanks and keep it up.
Amen!!!

Very interesting info. Thanks Kris!
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post #114 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 04:32 PM
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I was referring to the new firmware. I only really like the 59AVi via HDMI. The component outputs have too much Y/C delay. But the main draw to the 59AVi is the total digital transport idea. 480i HDMI to processor, firewire for audio. Especially with the new DVDO HDMI processor coming and stuff like the Dragonfly. I want at least 10 bit processing from here on out. I just don't like 8 bit on digital displays, too much banding.

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post #115 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mimason
Kris, Actually you are providing what everyone wants to hear even though it's not what some want to believe. I love it.

Thanks and keep it up.
This coming from somone who sold there Pioneer 59avi to buy a second Onkyo sp1000:rolleyes:
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post #116 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 04:40 PM
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You always have something positive to say, don't you Earz?! :rolleyes:

Quote:
I want at least 10 bit processing from here on out. I just don't like 8 bit on digital displays, too much banding.
I agree.
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post #117 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 04:44 PM
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Kris,

My 2 cents is. To many people use the scoring to decide on which player to get, instead of which one not to get. As in the players that are realy bad. Because most of these top players are all great. Naturally we would all down deep want to have the best. And to different eyes one is better than the other.

I personally have a Kenwood Sovereign 5900 and Entre set up that I think looks great. And a Yamaha 2300MKII that I think looks even better. But not all would agree.

I have been recently trying out different players so I can find one that I like over a HDMI connection. I tried the Denon 3910 and even though I thought it had a great picture I had two problems. 1) It had a problem over my long HDMI cable that works fine with everything else and 2) even though it was a nice player I did not think it was worth the price.(especailly with problem 1)

I tried the Pioneer 59 and I thought the picture just did not look right in my eyes. Go figure.

The 5910 is just not worth its price with HD DVD around the corner.

And now I am waiting for a SP1000 that was $1K for an open box. I admit though I have not cared much for the SiI504 and CUE. I always thought the Faroujda chips looked better. So we will see.

If this doesn't pan out I will be looking at the new Yamaha 2500 which I was told will have the new FLI-2310 without MB. But I'll believe it when I see it. But Yamaha has been on a roll lately with some nice products even though they take forever to release them.


Anyway, now that I have ranted. Maybe you should just change the scoring system from a number to a letter like :

A+ for something in the 90's but without CUE or MB like the Denon 5910

A- for something in the 90's with CUE or MB like the Onkyo 1000 and Denon 3910.

B's for the 80 players

C's for the 70 players etc. etc etc.

The they would be lumped together by more of a level. Because mostly all of the 90 are great and the 80s are not to far behind.

P.S.

Thanks and hurry up with the Onkyo review will ya:)
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post #118 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Earz
This coming from somone who sold there Pioneer 59avi to buy a second Onkyo sp1000:rolleyes:

It was for the audio only.
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post #119 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mimason
It was for the audio only.
Its your story.....tell it however you like:D
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post #120 of 837 Old 05-05-2005, 05:06 PM
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Hey Earz and Rob, please lets all do our best to keep this thread from turning into a "war of words". I am on my meds so I will be happy no matter what...But since Kris is doing his stuff lets keep it peaceful and allow him to post his findings (before thread closes)...

For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
Check out my Dolby Atmos/Surround first take:
http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homeste...=1409517748063
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