Denon 5910 vs Onkyo SP1000 Pro Review - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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It's in German but thought it interesting to post the comparison of the 5910 to the SP1000(actually the Integra):

http://www.areadvd.de/index.html


Conclusion:

Video - Denon
Audio - Integra/Onkyo
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post #2 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 12:24 PM
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Like Mimason already said, their conclusion was, the Denon has the best PQ and the Onkyo the best sound quality and remote.
Build quality wise the Denon has the lead.
The Onkyo has the better DVD loader with much better error correction. The Denon loader had problems with scratched disks that would play without problems on the Onkyo.

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post #3 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 03:44 PM
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Anyone who is suprised, has not been keeping up, the SP1000 has been compared as better at audio and video than the 6k Teac Eastoric dv-50 and comparable to the Linn Unidisk but with better build and picture.

Absolutely no suprises here on the audio side....and I highly doubt the 5910 has what I consider a better build or a picture worth 1500.00 more dollars.
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post #4 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 03:44 PM
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Thanks, mimason! :)


Quote:
Earz wrote:
Anyone who is surprised, has not been keeping up, the SP1000 has been compared as better at audio and video than the 6k Teac Eastoric dv-50 and comparable to the Linn Unidisk but with better build and picture.

Absolutely no suprises here on the audio side....and I highly doubt the 5910 has what I consider a better build or a picture worth 1500.00 more dollars.


It should smoke and burn anything else below <$3000 with GREAT ease to justify a cost difference like that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=Onkyo

When you look at the reviews out of Germany, and some of the others, on the first 5 pages or so of this thread, they were rating the Onkyo/Integra as comparable or even superior to such lofty names as Esoteric and Meridian. And they weren't just singling out audio, either. Some people were even comparing the Onkyo/Integra favorably to the almighty Linn Unidisc.

We even had one guy come into the thread, before the trolls derailed it and got it locked, who pocketed the cash difference and sold a Linn in favor of an Onkyo 1000. He didn't feel the price difference was justified. Amazing!

Has anyone tried to stack the Denon 5910 against anything from Krell, Esoteric, Meridian, or Linn as has been done already with the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5? I haven't been able to scare up a lot of Denon 5910 reviews or literature yet. I'd love to see the Denon 5910 stacked up against the "big boys" and see what it can do.

I would certainly hope the Denon 5910 would have won, at least in the video department, considering how much of a drastic price difference there is between it and the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5. I really would have been blown away if the Denon 5910 had gotten beat across the boards. Even as is, I'm kind of blown away by reading this.

It just continues to reinforce what a hell of a bargain the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5 are.

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post #5 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Q of BanditZ
Thanks, mimason! :)




It should smoke and burn anything else below <$3000 with GREAT ease to justify a cost difference like that.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ighlight=Onkyo

When you look at the reviews out of Germany, and some of the others, on the first 5 pages or so of this thread, they were rating the Onkyo/Integra as comparable or even superior to such lofty names as Esoteric and Meridian. And they weren't just singling out audio, either. Some people were even comparing the Onkyo/Integra favorably to the almighty Linn Unidisc.

We even had one guy come into the thread, before the trolls derailed it and got it locked, who pocketed the cash difference and sold a Linn in favor of an Onkyo 1000. He didn't feel the price difference was justified. Amazing!

Has anyone tried to stack the Denon 5910 against anything from Krell, Esoteric, Meridian, or Linn as has been done already with the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5? I haven't been able to scare up a lot of Denon 5910 reviews or literature yet. I'd love to see the Denon 5910 stacked up against the "big boys" and see what it can do.

I would certainly hope the Denon 5910 would have won, at least in the video department, considering how much of a drastic price difference there is between it and the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5. I really would have been blown away if the Denon 5910 had gotten beat across the boards. Even as is, I'm kind of blown away by reading this.

It just continues to reinforce what a hell of a bargain the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5 are. [/b]
You got that exactly right:D
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post #6 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 05:29 PM
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Quote:
Has anyone tried to stack the Denon 5910 against anything from Krell, Esoteric, Meridian, or Linn as has been done already with the Onkyo 1000 and Integra 10.5? I haven't been able to scare up a lot of Denon 5910 reviews or literature yet. I'd love to see the Denon 5910 stacked up against the "big boys" and see what it can do.
Yep. I stacked it up against the $13K Teac and it won out in both departments. Teac is limiting their players out the gate for some reason. Automatic PCM conversion of DSD no matter what and DACs that are only capable of 96/24 so no 192/24 support at all. Strange given the price.

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post #7 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
Yep. I stacked it up against the $13K Teac and it won out in both departments. Teac is limiting their players out the gate for some reason. Automatic PCM conversion of DSD no matter what and DACs that are only capable of 96/24 so no 192/24 support at all. Strange given the price.
The Denon 5910 beat out the $13K Teac? Do I read you right?

You know, you see things like that and you wonder: Why does (fill in the blank) cost so much? For $13K, that Teac should be almighty King of the Heavens, no questions asked. How can this be?

If you haven't done so already, I hope you do a write-up on this. I'd like to read it. :)

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post #8 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mimason

Conclusion:

Video - Denon
Audio - Integra/Onkyo
And the Onkyo/Integra players are not even Onkyo's flagship players. Their flagship unit is the Integra Research RDV-1.1, MSRP $4000. According to a friend of mine who's seen the Integra 10.5, the Denon 3910 and 5910, and the RDV-1.1, the IR piece beats them all both audio and video wise.

R
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post #9 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 06:25 PM
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It is amazing how we are continually trying to talk in terms of who beats what, mine is better than yours. I'll admit that from certain sources, reading professional praise of items I have purchased can be gratifying and re-assuring. In the case of my SP1000, there a few reviews that I have read that totally re-enforced what I consider to be an amazing value. Whether it fails more tests vs. the Denon in the DVD benchmark is entertaining reading at best for me. The difference between this tier of player is perhaps the smallest margin in the famous law of diminishing returns audio/video equipment saga. Whether it is better or worse than the Denon is debatable but the reality is that if there is a true winner, it is in most circumstances not a dramatic margin. To me, for my $1,600, just the fact that folks would want to compare it to the Denon 5910 either tells me that the Onkyo is an insane value or that the Denon is a miserable one. Either way, in my world I feel like I did well with the purchase. For Denon 5910 owners, they deserve to feel that for their hard earned money that they are the winner, I would assume that they see more dramatic pq difference vs. the Onkyo and read reviews like the German review mentioned and see the glass as half full. Nothing wrong with that, it is the way it should be.
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post #10 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Razvanel
And the Onkyo/Integra players are not even Onkyo's flagship players. Their flagship unit is the Integra Research RDV-1.1, MSRP $4000. According to a friend of mine who's seen the Integra 10.5, the Denon 3910 and 5910, and the RDV-1.1, the IR piece beats them all both audio and video wise.

R
I'd take that with a grain of salt. Integra always uses the exact same video processing pieces in each player. So far they just tweak them in a bit and spruce up the package and audio chips. There is no way that the Integra could beat the Denon at this point in video processing, it just is not possiblel with the chips they are using. Sorry. You can only squeeze so much from the grape. The Silicon Image 504 chip is a great piece, but its day is done in the big scheme. You can only go so far with it and the new chips already have. No doubt it is still a great performer and I bet the Integra/Onkyo look spectacular, but there is no way in the big scheme that it can top the processing of the HQV chip.

Quote:
Why does (fill in the blank) cost so much? For $13K, that Teac should be almighty King of the Heavens, no questions asked. How can this be?
You have to look at marketing. The Teac was built from the ground up out of solid aluminum. It has a proprietary drive system and connections to seperate systems that Teac has made. That is a lot of R&D expense for a VERY limited market. The price reflects the volume.

It amazes me that people in this hobby still don't understand this. Take for example Speaker brand X. It uses drivers and tweeters built by various companies that really aren't that expensive. They house them in a nice cabinet with lots of curves and beautiful finishes that they designed. So at the end of the day they have labor on those cabinets and the crossovers that they have to pay for. The drivers in quantity aren't that much. But get them in a store and you can add 500% to the price and they move. Because they are geared at an audiophile market and they are only going to sell so many. The same principle applies here.

The UX-1 is a phenominal piece of equipment from just about every standpoint. It uses an excellent video processing core and a superb audio core. If you listened to it without knowing anything about it you would probably be blown away. But you can pick apart just about anything on the market and find weaknesses. And that includes Denon, Integra and everyone else. It is a business and at the end of the day it is about making money. If anyone OEM'ed the 5910 and did nothing more then put a different chassis on it it would sell for easily over 2x's the price. Bet on it. Companies have been doing more then that for years on rebadged Pioneer players and I've seen a lot of people on these boards stand up for them and say how great they are.

I really hope to get the chance to look at one of the Onkyo/Integra/Integra Research players at some point. But I don't think it will happen. The last time they sent me a pair of players I called their bluff and was pretty blunt about it. They were identical except for the addition of BNC connections and some filtering on the audio board. They actually did worse in core performance with the Integra version of the player.

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post #11 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 06:42 PM
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The difference between this tier of player is perhaps the smallest margin in the famous law of diminishing returns audio/video equipment saga. Whether it is better or worse than the Denon is debatable but the reality is that if there is a true winner, it is in most circumstances not a dramatic margin
Couldn't have said that any better myself. This is the type of logic I wish most members here would come to because at the end of the day it is the whole truth. Enjoy!!!

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post #12 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by PedroV
Like Mimason already said, their conclusion was, the Denon has the best PQ and the Onkyo the best sound quality and remote.
Build quality wise the Denon has the lead.
As someone who has owned both Denon (albeit not the 5910) and the Onkyo SP1000, it does not surprise me whatsoever that in that particular review the Onkyo was preferred for audio.

In addition, given the HQV component to the 5910, it does not surprise me that the Denon was preferred for video.

It does surprise me that build quality went to the Denon.

I have a slightly different angle on the video side from what Earz and Q have mentioned, i.e., that for ~ $1,500 more the Denon should be significantly better on video and, since it is not, the cost difference is not justifiable.

I am wondering if anyone has had JVB or someone else perform an SDI mod to the Onkyo and then run it to an SDI modded iScan HD+ or other SDI video processor? If so, then for virtually the same price as the 5910, one might have a DVD player that, even by Kris D.'s testing standards, would be perhaps rated even closer to the 5910 on video, remain better on audio, and have the added benefits of an external video processor?

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post #13 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by soldonandy
It is amazing how we are continually trying to talk in terms of who beats what, mine is better than yours. I'll admit that from certain sources, reading professional praise of items I have purchased can be gratifying and re-assuring. In the case of my SP1000, there a few reviews that I have read that totally re-enforced what I consider to be an amazing value. Whether it fails more tests vs. the Denon in the DVD benchmark is entertaining reading at best for me. The difference between this tier of player is perhaps the smallest margin in the famous law of diminishing returns audio/video equipment saga. Whether it is better or worse than the Denon is debatable but the reality is that if there is a true winner, it is in most circumstances not a dramatic margin. To me, for my $1,600, just the fact that folks would want to compare it to the Denon 5910 either tells me that the Onkyo is an insane value or that the Denon is a miserable one. Either way, in my world I feel like I did well with the purchase. For Denon 5910 owners, they deserve to feel that for their hard earned money that they are the winner, I would assume that they see more dramatic pq difference vs. the Onkyo and read reviews like the German review mentioned and see the glass as half full. Nothing wrong with that, it is the way it should be.
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post #14 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 07:05 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Kris Deering
"Sorry. You can only squeeze so much from the grape."

Which is why 480i is 480i. I will say the 5910 is overall the best player on the market but with its specs it is supposed to be. Which is not to say anything bad about the SP1000 (still my unit of choice). Many movies look nearly the same when doing A/B tests. The older movies will have the edge with the 5910 in overall pic quality. I am not the greatest audio expert but am not surprised the SP1000 is considered the best in that department. Any movie or cd just seems to come to life more when played. My German Shepard gets confused sometimes (wondering if dialect is coming from a real person in the room). I know I have been "flamed" many times over for my past posts, but I only type from my heart. So once again I will repeat myself, the 5910 is the best overall player. But the price difference to many as well as myself is not worth investing in today. With the new format (HD-DVD), and the other excellent players, Pioneer 59AVI, Denon 3910, Onkyo SP1000 and Marantz 9500 it is asking a lot to spend 2800-3500 for the 5910. I have said all along the MSRP should be 2500. At that price they would sell to a lot larger market(probably then would go between 1800-2500). Kris, I have to hand it to you, when you like something, you stick by it.

"I really hope to get the chance to look at one of the Onkyo/Integra/Integra Research players at some point."

I still can't believe you haven't had a chance to test these units together. It is a lot of fun doing an A/B between them. This Onkyo SP1000 is a pleasure to work with. It is not like the old days of Integra/Onkyo, they have a new sheriff in town...Seriously, get one, you might be surprised...

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post #15 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 07:08 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by joerod
Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
"Sorry. You can only squeeze so much from the grape."

Which is why 480i is 480i. I will say the 5910 is overall the best player on the market but with its specs it is supposed to be. Which is not to say anything bad about the SP1000 (still my unit of choice). Many movies look nearly the same when doing A/B tests. The older movies will have the edge with the 5910 in overall pic quality. I am not the greatest audio expert but am not surprised the SP1000 is considered the best in that department. Any movie or cd just seems to come to life more when played. My German Shepard gets confused sometimes (wondering if dialect is coming from a real person in the room). I know I have been "flamed" many times over for my past posts, but I only type from my heart. So once again I will repeat myself, the 5910 is the best overall player. But the price difference to many as well as myself is not worth investing in today. With the new format (HD-DVD), and the other excellent players, Pioneer 59AVI, Denon 3910, Onkyo SP1000 and Marantz 9500 it is asking a lot to spend 2800-3500 for the 5910. I have said all along the MSRP should be 2500. At that price they would sell to a lot larger market(probably then would go between 1800-2500). Kris, I have to hand it to you, when you like something, you stick by it.

"I really hope to get the chance to look at one of the Onkyo/Integra/Integra Research players at some point."

I still can't believe you haven't had a chance to test these units together. It is a lot of fun doing an A/B between them. This Onkyo SP1000 is a pleasure to work with. It is not like the old days of Integra/Onkyo, they have a new sheriff in town...Seriously, get one, you might be surprised...
If the Denon 5910 sold at an MSRP of $2500, that would be a HUGE watershed event. I think they should do that as well. Great post, Joe!

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post #16 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 08:18 PM
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With the new format (HD-DVD), and the other excellent players, Pioneer 59AVI, Denon 3910, Onkyo SP1000 and Marantz 9500 it is asking a lot to spend 2800-3500 for the 5910. I have said all along the MSRP should be 2500. At that price they would sell to a lot larger market(probably then would go between 1800-2500). Kris, I have to hand it to you, when you like something, you stick by it.
You nailed it there Joe. You have to remember it is my JOB to find the best video processing. That is why I stand behind the 5910. I am not trying to take anything away from the 59AVi, 3910 and others. They are fabulous players, especially given their price. Do I think the 5910 is worth the $2K more?? Not unless you are fanatical about video quality like me.

Quote:
I am wondering if anyone has had JVB or someone else perform an SDI mod to the Onkyo and then run it to an SDI modded iScan HD+ or other SDI video processor? If so, then for virtually the same price as the 5910, one might have a DVD player that, even by Kris D.'s testing standards, would be perhaps rated even closer to the 5910 on video, remain better on audio, and have the added benefits of an external video processor?
De-interlacing wise they would be identical as they both use the same chip. The scaling in the DVDO would probably be a bit better, but I doubt you would notice it. The real advantage would be if your display wasn't a perfect 480P/720P/1080i type device so that you could do 1:1 mapping. Even I do this with the 5910. I have it coupled with an Iscan HD+ but I am still using the HQV for de-interlacing.

I think the most appealing solution right now is coupling either an Arcam or Pioneer Elite HDMI player with DVDO's upcoming video processor using the 480i HDMI outputs. I am pretty confident that Dale and company over at DVDO are going to be releasing a phenominal product that will give the HQV folks a real run for their money. The Elite is even better since it would handle 480i out digitally plus the benefit of firewire out for your audio, essentially making it a pure digital transport. I have a feeling I am going to be going this route by years end. I am just waiting until CEDIA to decide what transport to use.

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post #17 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 08:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kris Deering
I'd take that with a grain of salt. Integra always uses the exact same video processing pieces in each player.
Kris,

That's possible, I only reported here what I was told. I myself am not a videophile and don't really care which player is better video wise.

When it comes to audio performance, I did hear both the Onkyo and the Integra Research players and the IR unit is better. In fact, the IR player sounds exactly like the RDC-7.1 processor.

R
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post #18 of 837 Old 05-01-2005, 10:31 PM
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Oh I have no doubt that the main improvements between the lines comes from the audio side. The IR unit includes the nice clock and everything. Probably better components all around. I was referring only to the video side. So basically it boils down to whether you'll think you'll get any benefit from the increase in audio performance. If the SP1000 sounds great already, maybe you wouldn't need the IR unit.

Same can be said about the 5910. If the player you have already looks great to you, why change up??

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post #19 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 03:41 AM
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It amazes me that people in this hobby still don't understand this. Take for example Speaker brand X. It uses drivers and tweeters built by various companies that really aren't that expensive. They house them in a nice cabinet with lots of curves and beautiful finishes that they designed. So at the end of the day they have labor on those cabinets and the crossovers that they have to pay for. The drivers in quantity aren't that much. But get them in a store and you can add 500% to the price and they move. Because they are geared at an audiophile market and they are only going to sell so many. The same principle applies here.

I quit purchasing Thiels ect years ago in favor of custom built no name speakers using some of the best drivers ,inductors and xover parts available ....and could not be happier with the end result.

As far as the flagship Teac, nobody seems to be impressed with it on the audio boards either from a price/performance standpoint.
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post #20 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 06:11 AM
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Quote:
Earz wrote:
It amazes me that people in this hobby still don't understand this. Take for example Speaker brand X. It uses drivers and tweeters built by various companies that really aren't that expensive. They house them in a nice cabinet with lots of curves and beautiful finishes that they designed. So at the end of the day they have labor on those cabinets and the crossovers that they have to pay for. The drivers in quantity aren't that much. But get them in a store and you can add 500% to the price and they move. Because they are geared at an audiophile market and they are only going to sell so many. The same principle applies here.


So true! When I was speaker hunting last summer, I really found out what kind of gouge jobs exist all over the place. It's really no wonder you see fights break out in the speaker forum at the drop of a hat. You really have to watch yourself VERY carefully when looking for speakers.

Quote:


I quit purchasing Thiels ect years ago in favor of custom built no name speakers using some of the best drivers ,inductors and xover parts available ....and could not be happier with the end result.


www.htd.com all the way for me. I couldn't ask for more, and the price I got my speakers at made me dance a jig in the streets. ;) I even got a nice piano finish as a little bonus. :p

Quote:
As far as the flagship Teac, nobody seems to be impressed with it on the audio boards either from a price/performance standpoint.


I'd sure be angry if I bought one of those and saw players $10,000 cheaper either hanging with it or beating it outright. That bad boy would be on videgon so fast it would make your head spin.

I'd do like the guy in our Onkyo Pro thread did with his Linn Unidisc. I'd sell it, pocket the cash difference, and buy either a Denon 5910, and Onkyo 1000, and Integra 10.5, or I might splurge for one of the Integra Researches...and make out "like a Bandit." :D


Reading this entire thread, and it's a hell of a good read all the way...I come away with one observation and one question and I'd like to field responses.

1.) I'm encouraged by one obvious trend: Giant Killers. It's obvious by now that the Denon 5910 and Onkyo/Integra units (not even including the Research models, but you can if you want) - all either hang respectably with, or even beat out five figure models! That's great for consumers!

2.) The flipside of that leads to this obvious question: What does five figures really get you with these monster DVD players like a Teac, or so on, given the discussion we're having in this thread?

I think Earz hit on a lot of the truth to this thing. They charge five figures and package 'em up real nice, because they know there's a certain "'phile type" that'll bite on it everytime. I've had very simillar experiences with speakers myself.

I guess if they can get away with charging five figures for something that really shouldn't cost nearly that much they'll do it. That's the real lesson here isn't it? ;)

I'm having that lesson pounded into me right now as I am in the hunt for a display upgrade now. When you start seeing $13,000 LCoS Sony Qualias and so forth, you just start scratching your head after a point.

I must say: With the super fast and influx manner that the electronics market is in right now, especially for displays, it's downright intimidating. It's easily making my hunts for any of the rest of my gear seem like Sesame Street in comparsion.

I suspect I won't finally settle on something until well into the Fall. I'll have it done before Xbox 360 is out, though. ;)

Feel free to PM me ANY tips, advice, or whatever about looking for displays. :)

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #21 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 10:13 AM
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Kris-

Any idea when the new DVDO unit w/hdmi will be released, or its price?

Thanks
Bob
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post #22 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 10:16 AM
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No idea, just sometime late this year. No idea on price either. Sorry.

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post #23 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 10:44 AM
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Is the LAYER CHANGE seamless in the SP1000?....
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post #24 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dr150
Is the LAYER CHANGE seamless in the SP1000?....
Yes.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #25 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 11:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by dr150
Is the LAYER CHANGE seamless in the SP1000?....
No, but very fast at around .5 second.

Quote:
Originally posted by Q of Banditz

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by dr150
Is the LAYER CHANGE seamless in the SP1000?....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes.
Q, what are you smoking? :D
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post #26 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 11:21 AM
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I think there is a split second pause, nothing outrageous. My Denon 2900 has a seamless change which is nice but no screen saver or disc memory feature which would be deal breakers if it was my primary player. Seamless layer change is nice no doubt but pretty low on the feature must have list for me.
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post #27 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 11:34 AM
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Does the SP1000 transformer make clicking sounds when hunt for a signal lock?



(My $2k Philips SACD1000 drove me nuts with its transformer clicks!)
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post #28 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by dr150
Does the SP1000 transformer make clicking sounds when hunt for a signal lock?

(My $2k Philips SACD1000 drove me nuts with its transformer clicks!)
I've never heard anything like that. Always is silent and steady for me.


Quote:
Originally posted by soldonandy
I think there is a split second pause, nothing outrageous. My Denon 2900 has a seamless change which is nice but no screen saver or disc memory feature which would be deal breakers if it was my primary player. Seamless layer change is nice no doubt but pretty low on the feature must have list for me.
Fair and accurate enough. The only time I've seen something like that is on poorly engineered DVD's.

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #29 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 11:45 AM
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Well a SP1000 is on its way to me and will be in my hands by week's end. I sucked it up and just ordered one online. I can always return it.

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post #30 of 837 Old 05-02-2005, 12:04 PM
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Kris,



AVS owes you a big THANK YOU for ordering the Onkyo.

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
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