HQV Benchmark 1.4 DVD Player Shootout - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 90 Old 06-15-2005, 08:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Hello,

Just for fun, some HQV Benchmark Scores.

Equipment: Panasonic TC-22LH1 LCD / Hitachi 32HDT55 and the players listed

Keep in mind the total score is the sum of the results of the tests performed. That's it. The tests are not a complete test of the player's capabilities and may not show some postive aspects or negative aspects.

Any quality judgement derived is that of the reader.

The HQV manual is located here: HQV manual

The tests are roughly in two sections:
1. Detail, Motion Adaptive, Noise
2. Cadences


Code:
 
Manu          Oppo   Pan   Pan  Sony  Sony Momit Cyber Terapin Pan
Player        DV971H S97   S97  975V  975V V880  CH320 TT1800  XP50
Connect       DVI    HDMI  HDMI HDMI  Comp DVI   Comp  Comp    Comp
Res           1080i  1080i 480p 1080i 480p 1080i 480p  480p    480p

Color/Vert     5      5     10   5     10   0     0     10      5
Jaggies 1      5      5      5   3      3   0     3      0      5
Jaggies 2      5      5      5   1      1   0     3      0      5
Flag          10     10     10   0      0   0     0      0     10
Picture Detl  10     10     10  10     10   0     0     10     10
Noise Red      5      5      5   0      0   0     0      0     10
MA Noise Red   5      5      5   0      0   0     0      0     10
Film Detail    5      5      5   5      5   0     0      5      5

2:2            0      0      0   5      5   0     0      0      5
2:2:2:4        0      0      0   0      0   0     0      0      5
2:3:3:2        0      0      0   0      0   0     0      0      0
3:2:3:2:2      0      0      0   0      0   0     0      0      0
5:5            0      0      0   0      0   0     0      0      0
6:4            0      0      0   0      0   0     0      0      0
8:7            0      0      0   0      0   0     0      0      0
3:2            5      5      5   5      5   0     0      5      5
Mixed 3:2 H   10     10     10   0      0  10    10     10     10
Mixed 3:2 V   10     10     10  10     10  10    10     10     10

Total         75     75     80  44     49  20    26     50     95

Notes:

Oppo 1111b firmware NR- Medium / NTSC
Panasonic S97 in Auto1
Sony Mixed 3:2 H becomes 10 if configured for Progressive Video
Panasonic XP50 Auto2 NR (3D/Block/Mosq) settings at max

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post #2 of 90 Old 06-15-2005, 09:03 PM
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Paul- Why didn't you test the XP-30 or 50 for the fun of it? Seems like I remember you having one. I believe it scored the same as the Panny 97 in latest " secrets". Plus it would be a 480P vs 480P test, since that is the best that the XP-30 does.

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post #3 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 04:18 AM
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Paul,

It might be helpful if you could tell us which of the scores were subjective and which were objective. For instance, many of the cadence tests can be objective, as a player either tracks a particular cadence or it doesn't. How do you evaluate things like "Film Detail", however? I would think that the subjective evaluation criteria could change if you tested a really stellar player which did a better job than all the others you'd seen to date.

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post #4 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 06:30 AM - Thread Starter
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HoustonGuy,

I have an XP50 and several others. It's just a beginning. First attempt.

Dale,

Thanks for the feedback.

Understand that the accompanying book (and even the disc) illustrates what a "10", "5", or "0" is. That's the reference. These scores were not based on "looks good to me".

While any of the items could be the topic of a lengthy subjective evaluation, the scores reflect what is presented on the screen and illustrated in the accompanying materials. Can some players do a little better or a little worse? Perhaps, but then the deviations would not conform to the tests or scoring.

"Film Detail" is actually a 3:2 cadence detection test -- while the number of frames until detection can vary somewhat from player to player (if the player passes), failure is quite obvious.

"Picture Detail" would be subjective in other discussions (and usually is) but based on the scoring system and comparison to the illustrative materials, the players were scored on what was seen.

Purchase the disc and have a look. Surprises await.

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post #5 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Bigelow
HoustonGuy,

I have an XP50 and several others.
Knew it ! Was I right when I guessed 15 in the other thread ? :p

Gimme a new firmware or some funky theory so I can run DVE one more time !
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post #6 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Off the top of my head, I think the total is 11 (or thereabout). ;)

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post #7 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 07:08 AM
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The NR one is a tough one. I have used SO's tests with the 5910 and when you engage their filters there is a definate improvement. BUT, the scenes on the video cater to the filters. When you start using regular DVDs you will see artifacts associated with the filtering at times such as motion blur and artifacts with vertical lines. This is only using the HQV chip though. But it is still the best NR filter I've seen in a DVD player yet.

Same goes for their detail enhancer. On the test disc there is a scene of a park with a stone bridge on the right side. If you turn on their enhancer and crank it up you really see the detail increase in this scene. But if you use an overscan pattern and do the same thing you notice how much ringing you add the to image at the same time.

So as Dale points out, a lot of the stuff is subjective in some ways especially if you see it in a different light. The cadence tests are pretty good though and I love their diagonal line processing tests.

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post #8 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 07:10 AM
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Paul, the S97 at 1080i shows worse results on COLOR BAR than 480p. Are these results display-dependant in some form ?

The Oppo at 1080i shows poor results on both color bars and noise red.
Could you test the Oppo at 480p please ? And what visual difference does it make when a player doesn't score 10 on Color bar or Red noise, etc: less saturated, color bleeding ?

Is the Momo such a pos ???!!???

Thanks

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post #9 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 07:32 AM - Thread Starter
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CriCriCri,

Get the disc and read the included criteria and scoring method. I've added a link to the manual in the first post. It will explain better and illustrate how the scores are arrived at.

The results, of course, can be affected by the display and there are other variables as well. The Panasonic scored a "5" on the "Color Bar" test because slight flickering with the referenced horizontal lines was seen at 1080i. The lines were rock solid at 480p.

The Oppo scored a "5" on the same test which, again, means slight flickering with the indicated horizontal bars.

The Momitsu scored what it scored, because, in part, the picture was not as detailed as the reference and the deinterlacer used is not motion-adaptive -- the tests show this.

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post #10 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 08:17 AM
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I thought most people recommend the Oppo at 480p/720p. Does it fare any better at these resolutions?

But in my own way, I am King. Hail to the King, baby.


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post #11 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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My Panasonic LCD does not accept 720p but I'm working on that! I wouldn't expect major changes.

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post #12 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 11:20 AM
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Oppo color test perfect also nr works (this atleast with 480p).
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post #13 of 90 Old 06-16-2005, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jriihi
Oppo color test perfect also nr works (this atleast with 480p).
Could you report your detailed numbers with Oppo at 480p using the same sequence (post #1) ??

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post #14 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 05:12 AM
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Paul,

About 2 weeks ago I also received my new HQV 1.4 disc. I ran my tests right after I got it on the Oppo and S97. My results are pretty close to yours. I think you scored the Jaggies 1 and Jaggies 2 tests incorrectly. The maximum score either of those can have is 5 (not 10), so there is a total of a 10 score for the entire Jaggies section. I had no flicker at all in the color bars on the S97 at 720p, I had a litlle near the "1" on the Oppo so it got a 5 (Panny got a 10 there). Here are my scores:

Code:
Manu          Oppo   Pan 
Player        DV971H S97 
Connect       DVI    HDMI
Res           720p  720p
=========================

Color/Vert     5     10
Jaggies 1      5      5
Jaggies 2      5      5
Flag          10     10
Picture Detl  10     10
Noise Red      0      5
MA Noise Red   0      5
Film Detail    5      5

2:2            0      0
2:2:2:4        0      0
2:3:3:2        0      0
3:2:3:2:2      0      0
5:5            0      0
6:4            0      0
8:7            0      0
3:2            5      5
Mixed 3:2 H   10     10
Mixed 3:2 V   10     10

=========================
Total:         65     80

Maximum Score possible = 130
A few notes:

1.) On the S97, 3:2 pulldown is much faster when 4:3 is displayed normally (instead of stretched).
2.) When the Oppo is in SQZ mode with 4:3 material, it does lose horiz. detail/resolution, the S97 does not. This is likely due to the MediaTek.
3.)When the S97 is stretching 4:3 material (Normal mode instead of Auto), 3:2 pulldown sometimes hops in and out on the Film Detail grandstand scene and moire is present in the stands for a split second. When this scene is displayed in the correct aspect ratio with pillarboxes (4:3) this does not happen. The Oppo never hops out into video mode regardless whether in SQZ or Wide mode with this scene. I scored both of the players with the video content displayed at it's proper width/resolution.
4.) The Oppo has a little flicker at the "1" position in the color bars (the S97 has absolutely none @720p). I tried disabling the Cross Color suppressor, but this did not stop it. I played around with disabling TrueLife in the Oppo as well (YUK!). It is basically like disabling Faroudja DCDi (jaggies and moire everywhere).
5.) Paul, these results were obtained independently of yours, I made my scores a couple of weeks ago....looks like we were pretty close in interpreting everything.

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post #15 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 06:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Hello Lite Up!

Good work!

Thanks for spotting the scoring error! I'll make corrections. I'm hoping to get (and keep) a 720p-capable LCD display soon.

Yes, I think the scores (after corrections) are identical.

Every player is going to do something a little bit different from the others and that's the purpose of the accompanying notes. For example, I think the Sony did a bit better with the "Color Bars / Vertical Detail" test at 480p but the scoring doesn't provide for scoring a 9 or an 8.5 or an 11 so 10 it is.

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post #16 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 06:52 AM
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I wonder if my sanyo plv-z3 does noise reduction automatically? Other than that my results are almost identical. Interesting is also how didnt see any flickering in vertical test.

I have seen flickering with oppo usually with some dvd text screens and sometimes other scenes in 720p.
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post #17 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteUp!
Paul,

4.) The Oppo has a little flicker at the "1" position in the color bars (the S97 has absolutely none @720p). I tried disabling the Cross Color suppressor, but this did not stop it. I played around with disabling TrueLife in the Oppo as well (YUK!). It is basically like disabling Faroudja DCDi (jaggies and moire everywhere)..
Thanks to dig in LiteUp!
But how did you make those 2 adjustments in the Oppo !!!!
Do you have the next beta firmware ?
Disabling TrueLife ! Disabling CCS !!

Gimme a new firmware or some funky theory so I can run DVE one more time !
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post #18 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 07:01 AM
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Cricricri,

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh....just like on the old Calgon commercials....it's an "ancient Chinese secret."

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post #19 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 07:02 AM
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I did see flickering with the Oppo....just not with the S97 at 720p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jriihi
I wonder if my sanyo plv-z3 does noise reduction automatically? Other than that my results are almost identical. Interesting is also how didnt see any flickering in vertical test.

I have seen flickering with oppo usually with some dvd text screens and sometimes other scenes in 720p.

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post #20 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I dropped a note about the slight jittering with an Oppo engineer.

When we're at this level of detail in the picture there might be some slight sample to sample variability (both player and display). Some clock frequency probably needs to be tweaked a bit.

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post #21 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 07:20 AM
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I have to check that test again later today in 480p and 720p and report what i find.
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post #22 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 07:22 AM
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Tweaking clock frequencies !
Disabling CCS and TrueLife !

Man, I wish I'm Chinese ! :p

Gimme a new firmware or some funky theory so I can run DVE one more time !
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post #23 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 08:09 AM
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I''m trying to learn how to handle this disc right and try and run the Onkyo 1000 through it.

Let me make sure I'm clear on something: To test the player, run through HDMI, to test the TV, run through 480i component?

What would I do? Run the Onkyo 1000 over HDMI and test everything at 720p, then again 1080i?

Great ISF Job by Chad B.
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post #24 of 90 Old 06-17-2005, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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To fully test the player run on 480p / 720p / 1080i HDMI and/or 480p component.

To test the TV run on 480i (HDMI and/or component -- if Onkyo allows 480i via HDMI).

Paul
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post #25 of 90 Old 06-20-2005, 06:45 AM
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Just posting correction that oppo/480p with sanyo plv-z3 (720p native) using dvi-hdmi cable passed those noise reduction tests. I also tried really hard to look for flickering in color bars but didnt see anything. So only explanation i can think that probably its scaling etc done by sanyo in this setup and resolution.
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post #26 of 90 Old 06-20-2005, 07:35 AM
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Paul, any update regarding the Oppo at 720p since new beta firmware test ?

Gimme a new firmware or some funky theory so I can run DVE one more time !
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post #27 of 90 Old 06-20-2005, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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CriCriCri,

Liteup! posted some Oppo 720p results on 6-17.

Paul
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post #28 of 90 Old 06-23-2005, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiteUp!
2.) When the Oppo is in SQZ mode with 4:3 material, it does lose horiz. detail/resolution, the S97 does not. This is likely due to the MediaTek.
Hey LiteUp!,

The Oppo vs. Panasonic comparison photos that you published a while back, tell a different story. The Avia resolution patterns in that comparison, showed that both the Oppo AND the Panasonic were losing horizontal resolution with 4:3 material. The Oppo looked worse because of the jaggies from the Mediatek chip in that revision of the firmware, but with that issue resolved, the results look pretty much identical to me.

Did Panasonic fix that loss of resolution since your comparison?

Gary
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post #29 of 90 Old 06-23-2005, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Gary,

The Panasonic S97 still loses some vertical resolution when squeezing 4:3 with firmware 540.

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post #30 of 90 Old 06-23-2005, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Bigelow
The Panasonic S97 still loses some vertical resolution when squeezing 4:3 with firmware 540.
Hi Paul. That's what I thought too.

I'm sure you mean horizontal resolution though? The problem on both players is confined to the vertical wedge patterns on Avia, which test for horizontal resolution (from Guy Kuo's explanation).

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