Snazio SZ-1350 Net DVD Cinema HD network player - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deez View Post

Thats exactly what i mean..i am frustrated at waiting for the z500,but i feel totaly comfortable with buying this player when it is released (unlike the snazzio 1350)because of the communication on thier forums.....even if the z500 has some problems i would be totally confident at resolution of any problems and constant communication of those solutions...to me ,when dealing with these "internet only" players that communication/support is the biggest selling point besides performance of that equiptment.

Well, I prefer the other way: promise nothing and deliver a lot. Exactly as happened in case of this Snazio.

I hate empty promises - promises are free, don't cost anything but some 'html'.
Real delivery requires more.

Also it's pretty hard to play anything on promises for 9 months now (ie Kiss), as opposed to playing things on my Snazio for weeks now.
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post #182 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 07:50 PM - Thread Starter
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I can't see my last post...
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post #183 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 07:57 PM
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LOL

For your information the z500 is not vaporware please see post #148 it is sitting in seemoredigital's house right now......he is testing it for chuna.....

PS- look under plasma...

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post #184 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 08:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, now it's arrived.
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post #185 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 08:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deez View Post

LOL

For your information the z500 is not vaporware please see post #148 it is sitting in seemoredigital's house right now......he is testing it for chuna.....

PS- look under plasma...


FYI: my Snazio is sitting on my shelf - how about your Zensonic?

As long as it's not available, it's vaporware. I've seen many product in test unit form which never been released as retail/OEM product.
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post #186 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 09:45 PM
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Okay T2K it is vaporware for now. When it is released to the market you can change that to realware ok? Happy?

Companies like IO Data, Snazzio etc pay $$ to a middleware company that developes the software (ala Syabas) and the unit is readily available which is great. Only problem is if there are issues they are at Syabas's mercy to fix those bugs not the OEM itself.

In our case we are developing the middleware on our own, so whatever the issues we can look into it and get it fixed without relying on a 3rd party. This is the major differences between the units. The chipsets are identical. As a result, it is taking a bit more time for development than getting software off the shelf and customizing things like the GUI etc.

Having said that, those units are good and worth what you pay for. So enjoy that. And you are right we shouldnt have announced it way back when we werent ready but we have learnt from that mistake now and will only announce when we know we can deliver a unit within that time frame in the future.
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post #187 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 10:00 PM
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chuna- Will the Zensonic 500 pass BTB and WTW via HDMI which is currently my main problem via DVI with my Snazzio Z1350?
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post #188 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland Janus View Post

I'm not refering to the quality of the scaling within the player. I'm mean the quality of the picture itself.

I don't think that the unprocessed picture of all players is the same, right?

So, for dvd's what do you use to feed it into the crystalio?

unprocessed signals, right?

Yes, 480i and 576i respectively, over SDi.
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post #189 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chuna View Post

Okay T2K it is vaporware for now. When it is released to the market you can change that to realware ok? Happy?

Companies like IO Data, Snazzio etc pay $$ to a middleware company that developes the software (ala Syabas) and the unit is readily available which is great. Only problem is if there are issues they are at Syabas's mercy to fix those bugs not the OEM itself.

In our case we are developing the middleware on our own, so whatever the issues we can look into it and get it fixed without relying on a 3rd party. This is the major differences between the units. The chipsets are identical. As a result, it is taking a bit more time for development than getting software off the shelf and customizing things like the GUI etc.

Having said that, those units are good and worth what you pay for. So enjoy that. And you are right we shouldnt have announced it way back when we werent ready but we have learnt from that mistake now and will only announce when we know we can deliver a unit within that time frame in the future.

That's great chuna. It's good to hear you have an involvement with this player and will be on this forum. The more of these player's that become available mean better products, services and prices!
Perhaps SMD can pop over and do an A-B with the Snazio?
I'm very impressesd with the Snazio, but time will tell if the support is up to scratch.

Cheers
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post #190 of 990 Old 09-12-2005, 10:54 PM
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Wevll in my opinion if the player doesnt have support than it is not worth the money...also the video performance is subpar as well to me if it does not pass BTB or WTW.....I dont care how many ts files you can play with it.....


PS- Only unit i own now is the oppo which had great support and it performs beautifully.....94/100 at secrets...

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post #191 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 04:16 AM
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Hi guys,

I will do my best to answer some of your questions but please bear in mind that the player is still under development and that not all questions can be answered yet.

As it would be unfair to talk about the Z500 in this thread, can you please confine your questions to the Zensonic Z500 thread.


Cheers

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post #192 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 04:30 AM
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BTW: If the player will be region locked and can't be changed it's no use for me too.

So, I don't care if it's officially region free as long as it can be set to be region free...

How about that?
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post #193 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 06:33 AM
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As far as I'm aware Roland, no reputable stand-alone player manufacturer can officially distribute "region free" devices. Such an activity is a clear violation of CSS (and other) regulations and could result in a manufacturer loosing their licence to fabricate players or deal with various partners.

Of course what happens to a device after it's left the manufacturer, is (at the present time) out of their control. But it sounds as though this will be changing soon!


Cheers

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post #194 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 06:37 AM
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Was anyone able to play the WMVHD version of "Transporter" succesfuly?
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post #195 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starred View Post

Was anyone able to play the WMVHD version of "Transporter" succesfuly?

I'm not familiar with this.... Can you provide more information?


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post #196 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

I'm not familiar with this.... Can you provide more information?


Cheers

The 1350 plays .TS files quite good, but is having problems with some of the HD movies in Microsofts WMV file format, for instance the movie "Transporter"
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post #197 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Starred View Post

The 1350 plays .TS files quite good, but is having problems with some of the HD movies in Microsofts WMV file format, for instance the movie "Transporter"

Is this movie is available on an HD WMV DVD or available via a legal download link?


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post #198 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

As far as I'm aware Roland, no reputable stand-alone player manufacturer can officially distribute "region free" devices. Such an activity is a clear violation of CSS (and other) regulations and could result in a manufacturer loosing their licence to fabricate players or deal with various partners.

Of course what happens to a device after it's left the manufacturer, is (at the present time) out of their control. But it sounds as though this will be changing soon!


Cheers

I must assume that if the code for region free gets into the wild after a while that it can't just happen... Way to many combinations to just find that by coincidence... So, the company must have something to do with it, don't you think?

I don't care "offcialy"... as long as it does.

But you're saying there is not gonna be a region free version, but will it leak???

The snazzio can be unlocked now, so if the z500 can't be somehow it's no use.
I don't plan to buy two players...

region coding is stupid anyway. more and more dvd's are released so closely together for all regions.
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post #199 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 08:50 AM
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Well.... if we are to use what's happened with other players as an example of whether their will be a region free hack for the Z500.... then.... I think it's safe to assume it would be very likely.... almost a certainty


Cheers

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post #200 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JimmytheSaint View Post

I have those films and considerably more stored on my hard drives, in the same .ts format and have had NO issues with playback, or skipping, or jumping to a segment (whereas my very powerful PC freezes) when running a wired LAN to my Snazio SZ1310!! I was even more surprised when it smoothly played back some HD .m2t files, that made my codec rich PC stutter!
Colour me impressed. Don't know why you are having problems.

Well, I was able to play .ts HD movies (on a USB2.0 hard drive connected to the front of the Snazio) using Component 720p with no problem, but still can't get DVI 720p to play the same movies/clips. I am going to try a new USB cable (the one I have been using is rated for USB2.0, but I'm not sure it's rated for High-Speed USB2.0, though I wouldn't expect it to matter since it works with component 720p) and a new DVI cable to see if either of these are the problem.

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post #201 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 11:30 AM
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... I am going to try a new USB cable (the one I have been using is rated for USB2.0, but I'm not sure it's rated for High-Speed USB2.0, though I wouldn't expect it to matter since it works with component 720p) and a new DVI cable to see if either of these are the problem.

If you can already play and display 720p content via component I fail to see how buying another USB cable is going to improve your situation....

And people, please don't be fooled into thinking a "USB2.0" cable is somehow better than a "USB1.1" cable either. Provided your USB cable is not one if those really skinny affairs, it wont make a hoot of difference!

The situation can be a little different with DVI cables, because unlike HDMI, some DVI cables are able to carry analogue video signals too..... Some of you may have already noticed that HDMI cables are quite a bit slimmer than their DVI counterparts despite the fact HDMI can carry audio data too.

So before buying an new DVI cable, ask yourself if you need it to include an analogue portion too..... Probably not!


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post #202 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

And people, please don't be fooled into thinking a "USB2.0" cable is somehow better than a "USB1.1" cable either. Provided your USB cable is not one if those really skinny affairs, it wont make a hoot of difference!

A standard USB2.0 cable and a standard USB1.1 cable may very well be the same, but "High-Speed" USB 2.0 cables are REQUIRED to have extra shielding and such to help reduce the BER at the higher bitrates while standard USB 2.0 and USB 1.1 cables do not have that requirement. As I mentioned, I don't really expect this to make much (if any) difference, but it's worth a few bucks to try it. Worse case - I end up with an extra USB cable at home

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post #203 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 07:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chuna View Post

Okay T2K it is vaporware for now. When it is released to the market you can change that to realware ok? Happy?

FYI: I was happy already. I merely pointed out how ridiculous thing is to claim it's much better to have a still vaporware product with extensive promises from its vendor than an actual one on your shelf, working fine whatever you bough it for, with room for improvement. Capisce?

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Companies like IO Data, Snazzio etc pay $$ to a middleware company that developes the software (ala Syabas) and the unit is readily available which is great. Only problem is if there are issues they are at Syabas's mercy to fix those bugs not the OEM itself.

In our case we are developing the middleware on our own, so whatever the issues we can look into it and get it fixed without relying on a 3rd party. This is the major differences between the units. The chipsets are identical. As a result, it is taking a bit more time for development than getting software off the shelf and customizing things like the GUI etc.

Fine, I understand that, moreover I can appreciate that and I wish you good luck, seriously - but please, bear with me for a sec and take a look on the market: those players are on the market for a while now, available, making money for their respective mfrs, those are building user base, groups and thus providing feedback etc whereas yours is still missing, apparently still a month or months away (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming here).
Unless you'll use EM8622L your player's "primetime window" lasts only until the first H.264/AVC-capable player debutes - from that moment you're not the latest generation anymore. And looking at the fact that EM8622L is pin-compatible with EM8620L, I can easily imagine a next Spring arrival for the first one...
Which one is the better approach? There's no general answer, sure but in this case, under given market and other circumstances I'd go with the first one (except if I'd be really experienced in firmware coding).
If you're now banking on EM8622L, that's another story but then why announcing anything as early as beginning of this year, based on the older chip design when you obviously knew Sigma's roadmap at least for a year ahead?

Quote:


Having said that, those units are good and worth what you pay for. So enjoy that. And you are right we shouldnt have announced it way back when we werent ready but we have learnt from that mistake now and will only announce when we know we can deliver a unit within that time frame in the future.

Exactly my point. That's why big companies always follow the 'tight-lipped' approach. Making hype is one thing and definitely a must-have in your campaign weaponry but start it only when you're pretty sure about your delivery date, plus/minus few weeks even in worst case scenario.

Anyway, good luck and I'm sure you'll get over your firmware problems and start getting ready for delivery very soon.
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post #204 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 07:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

Well.... if we are to use what's happened with other players as an example of whether their will be a region free hack for the Z500.... then.... I think it's safe to assume it would be very likely.... almost a certainty


Cheers


It's evident, otherwise plenty of folks would go for the Snazio which already plays everything and sports DVI.
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post #205 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T2k View Post

Fine, I understand that, moreover I can appreciate that and I wish you good luck, seriously - but please, bear with me for a sec and take a look on the market: those players are on the market for a while now, available, making money for their respective mfrs, those are building user base, groups and thus providing feedback etc whereas yours is still missing, apparently still a month or months away (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming here).
Unless you'll use EM8622L your player's "primetime window" lasts only until the first H.264/AVC-capable player debutes - from that moment you're not the latest generation anymore. And looking at the fact that EM8622L is pin-compatible with EM8620L, I can easily imagine a next Spring arrival for the first one...
Which one is the better approach? There's no general answer, sure but in this case, under given market and other circumstances I'd go with the first one (except if I'd be really experienced in firmware coding).
If you're now banking on EM8622L, that's another story but then why announcing anything as early as beginning of this year, based on the older chip design when you obviously knew Sigma's roadmap at least for a year ahead?

If we were to release the Z500 without HDMI., HDCP etc we would have released this long time ago, but the fact is HDMI, HDCP, certifications for HDMI all take a lot longer to do than a simple DVI interface which has no regulations , no certification etc. HDCP is also not an easy task to implement. There are also other things that we decided to do to the firmware which all took time. Again like I said if we wanted to do a Snazio type device, we could have just bought a 3rd party license and released it instantly but thats not where we are going with this. We decided to do things a bit differently for reasons explained above and then add things like FLAC audio support, a better remote which we had to design from scratch.

As for the announcement, at that time, we did not consider HDMI, HDCP, and also the remote etc. We decided to make a lot of changes and as a result put our development time out by a lot. As for 8622, if you know anything about firmware development, we cant simply stick a chip in there and voila it works. Just doesnt work that way, Code has to be changed and will take more development time. Sure Sigma announced that months and months ago but the fact is even they when they announce doesnt mean the samples and SDK are available instantly. Their samples are just being available now. And when did they announce this? You get the point. If we are chasing chipsets like this we may as well stay in Vapor mode cause then users will say why not stick this chip in there and that. Just because H.264 is available doesnt mean that everyone will rush to buy that as both HD DVD and Blue Ray also adopt WMV9. We will come out with a H.264 solution next year. I am not worried at the moment about prime time windows. I am more into making sure the player works well and the features work well and the player has satisfaction amongst its users. That to me is more of a key than primetime windows. And as a result of missing primetime windows it doesnt sell, then so be it but I do know a lot of users looking forward to this player and I am confident we will support it well since we control our own development unlike other devices that rely heavily on 3rd part developers plus a forum for every user to come in and ask questions for support etc.

It is very easy for a user who has no clue how a development cycle works to sit like an armchair quarterback and say why not do this and that. There are lot of things that go behind the scenes that an armchair quarterback has no clue about. If only one understood how these things work they will know it is not easy to stick somehting in a unit and the software magically works.

For us it is simple, we will release the unit when it is ready regardless of what the users say whether it is vaporware etc. And I already told you we made the mistake of announcing early which wont happen again till we know and finalize for future products. And you are right it is all talk now, and you have every right to say things about it. When it releases then hopefully there wll be more action
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post #206 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuna View Post

If we were to release the Z500 without HDMI., HDCP etc we would have released this long time ago, but the fact is HDMI, HDCP, certifications for HDMI all take a lot longer to do than a simple DVI interface which has no regulations , no certification etc. HDCP is also not an easy task to implement.

Excuse me but what's the point in this HDMI/HDCP if next year you'll have another player as you write below? Currently the percentage of HDCP-enabled display devices is under the generally considered one-digit error margin, I believe.

Quote:


There are also other things that we decided to do to the firmware which all took time. Again like I said if we wanted to do a Snazio type device, we could have just bought a 3rd party license and released it instantly but thats not where we are going with this. We decided to do things a bit differently for reasons explained above and then add things like FLAC audio support, a better remote which we had to design from scratch.

I see you're trying to grab a lot but I don't see the reasons. Why? Only reason I can think of is that you thought you can save money on in-house development

Quote:


As for the announcement, at that time, we did not consider HDMI, HDCP, and also the remote etc.

Now this is really interesting: how do you mean this? As far as I know nobody without stable experience wouldn't risk to add extra functionality to an already designed, announced product, especially not during his first firmware development.
AFAIK you didn't have that experience, so question raises itself: how come you thought you could make it not only cheaper than Syabas-like company but even adding more features on-the-fly and still banking on a timely release?
Frankly, this sounds pretty crazy to me.

Quote:


We decided to make a lot of changes and as a result put our development time out by a lot. As for 8622, if you know anything about firmware development, we cant simply stick a chip in there and voila it works.

Well, apparently I know enough to not to think that I could not only do a better job on my own than a company makes it for a living but even add more and more extras during my first development...

According to your own statement over at your forum this is going to be your first in-house firmware, right?

Quote:


Just doesnt work that way, Code has to be changed and will take more development time.

No, sh*t... you guys are working on this for quite some time now. If tools would be ready it could have been enough for a second release too.

Quote:


Sure Sigma announced that months and months ago but the fact is even they when they announce doesnt mean the samples and SDK are available instantly. Their samples are just being available now.

Well, that's sux but not unknown in this industry.

Quote:


And when did they announce this? You get the point.

Well, they don't have to deal with plenty of competitors, you do.

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If we are chasing chipsets like this we may as well stay in Vapor mode cause then users will say why not stick this chip in there and that.

You misunderstood something, I think: I was asking about this as a possible explanation for the delay, I wasn't suggesting it.

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Just because H.264 is available doesnt mean that everyone will rush to buy that as both HD DVD and Blue Ray also adopt WMV9.

No but since it's a commodity, comes on a commodity price, there won't be too much price difference and thus there'll be a substantial percentage of the buyers who will rather buy the latest one, even if you price your Z500 accordingly, narrowing further down your profit margin.
Not only good product sells but marketing sells as well, keep in mind.

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We will come out with a H.264 solution next year.

Cool - but then why bother with HDMI/HDCP? It won't be important for at least 1-2 years yet now you're spending time, energy, resources, TTM - in other words money.

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I am not worried at the moment about prime time windows. I am more into making sure the player works well and the features work well and the player has satisfaction amongst its users. That to me is more of a key than primetime windows.

As you should do know now, I fully agree - your reputation is on the line after this long delay.
Nota bene it's somewhat still true for Kiss' reputation too, though theirs was already lost on their blatant code theft from the freeware GPL licensed Mplayer, especially when they ourageously not only denied the obvious, well-documented facts but claimed that despite the documents it's actually the other way around...

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And as a result of missing primetime windows it doesnt sell, then so be it

C'mon... is your company a non-profit organization?

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but I do know a lot of users looking forward to this player and I am confident we will support it well since we control our own development unlike other devices that rely heavily on 3rd part developers plus a forum for every user to come in and ask questions for support etc.

I believe the same but that doesn't mean it'll be financially feasible.

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It is very easy for a user who has no clue how a development cycle works to sit like an armchair quarterback and say why not do this and that.

Ouch, it's pretty low-level, pal...
FYI: apart from the fact that I wasn't saying why not to do this and that but I was saying why to do this and that, it's still way less lame than when a developer has no clue about how his own development cycle works and keeps promising and adding more and more to his 'to-do' log, eventually missing its own promises numerous times. That's called amateur in any developer circles, Mr Developer. (Yes, we develop software in-house too, though it isn't firmware for consumer electronics.)

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There are lot of things that go behind the scenes that an armchair quarterback has no clue about. If only one understood how these things work they will know it is not easy to stick somehting in a unit and the software magically works.

Really? So how is that when somebody saw the things "behind the scenes" yet managed to miscalculate its own skills, schedule, the full development process by long-long months?
Isn't this even more armchair-like, when you supposedly knew the tricks and tips and traps yet still couldn't avoid them?

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For us it is simple, we will release the unit when it is ready regardless of what the users say whether it is vaporware etc. And I already told you we made the mistake of announcing early which wont happen again till we know and finalize for future products.

I understood that - but then how is that you're calling me armchair quarterback after all these? :P All I did is raised some questions about the reasons of this long delay - and guess what, as it turns out, most likely I was right when I mentioned that perhaps you guys simply underestimated the importance of the lack of your direct experience in this field and/or overloaded yourself, underestimated the diffculty/lenght of the process, the total of all tasks.

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And you are right it is all talk now, and you have every right to say things about it. When it releases then hopefully there wll be more action

Amen.
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post #207 of 990 Old 09-13-2005, 11:13 PM
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Yeah no worries. Time will tell and beta testers have already seen the interface and funcitonality of the product already so will just wait and see when it releases who can fix problems faster and who can support it better. AT least we have support forums and dont have to wait for days to recieve an answer by email.

As for HDCP, they may be in single digits now but when users want to upscale their Hollywood DVD's they will not be able to do it without HDCP, hence why this technology is in the Z500. Your Snazio wont be able to do it without HDCP. If you are able to then they are doing it illegally and will come under fire if they get caught. It has nothing to do with this year or next year, so why not provide them with this technology now? They wont have to wait for another model next year for this if they want to upscale their DVD's this year.

As for development cycles, then I am sure a lot of big gaming companies are also amateurs in your sense of the word as some of them miss by a year. Its the nature of development pal. No one can give an exact time frame for a development especially when hardware is involved along with software development. They can give a target date. Heck look at Microsoft, they must be real amateur then Development often slips when its beyond someones control when we have to rely on someone else SDK etc.

You have your opinion, I have mine. Lets agree to disagree
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post #208 of 990 Old 09-14-2005, 12:19 AM
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Guys, it's pointless bickering about which unit is better etc. Both players use the same goddamn chip!
However, if chuna and the Zensonic have better support and features (like the USB 2.0 supporting NTFS) and Snazio don't redress that, then I'll get the Zensonic and sell my Snazzi!
I don't care about brand names and affiliation. Just give me the best product available and good support and I'm there.

Cheers
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post #209 of 990 Old 09-14-2005, 01:30 AM
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Same here...tdk let it go nobody is denying you the right to be angry cus you bought the snazzio as a knee jerk reaction and are now resenting yourself for doing so and now taking that remorse out on the zensonic for not getting to market on time...lol your last post should be deleted imo.....now again maybe you can tell me this about tjhe snazzio tdk does it pass BTB or WTW?


of course it doesnt...haha

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post #210 of 990 Old 09-14-2005, 01:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deez View Post

Same here...tdk let it go nobody is denying you the right to be angry cus you bought the snazzio as a knee jerk reaction and are now resenting yourself for doing so and now taking that remorse out on the zensonic for not getting to market on time...lol your last post should be deleted imo.....now again maybe you can tell me this about tjhe snazzio tdk does it pass BTB or WTW?


of course it doesnt...haha


Hey jeez... who are you talking to? Who the hell is tdk?
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