Denon DVD-3930 & DVD-2930 w/Realta T2 Chip Coming September- - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 03:38 PM
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In response to some comments and questions:

Q: Have you tried the 2930 at 480p to the display? This might help to clarify if the 'microblocking' you speak of is being introduced by the scaling of the Reon

A: No. Don't think the Reon actually does the scaling - I think it deinterlaces, has optional "ehnancement" (sharpening, I believe), and some noise reduction options (MPEG and random - random, btw, is decent). But the point is to isolate where this here-for-to unseen micro-blocking is coming from (assuming it is not purely source material artifacts that were masked). Not a bad idea. I might trying disabling everything and simply feeding 480i through the HDMI (start out with the REON not deinterlacing either).


Q: do you have a 3rd DVD player (non faroudja) that you could compare?

A: Yes and no. My 3rd is a Panasonic S97 which is used on a smaller, less critical display. It uses a faroudja implementation but with different firmware. It has plenty of other issues (compared to a mid/high end player - it's "kick butt" for under $300) but actually VERY little MB. I do not recall any of the shimmering - but haven't hooked it into this bigger display to compare. Will do that.


C: I would imagine that SO would not put out a chip that won't pass it's own "torture test" benchmark disc.

R: I'm sure you are right. My bet is that all the algorithms they did port and hard-code are, largely, identical. It is probably more the combined implementation of all the pieces. Having said that, the idea was, in part, to drive cost out of this chip. I suspect it runs at a much slower clock speed - and, as such, some operations - in their performance optimized complexity - may simply not have been feasible on this chip without changes. I work at a very large electronics manufacturer and it can easily take a 6-18 months after production starts to ring out all the bugs AND optimize performance. We see that all the time.


Lastly - coming back to this issue of what you were used to....I suspect when I got the 2910, I was looking at it with far less critical eyes. Getting the 2930, expectations were very high and I began more critically. The A/B between the two will be really key (especially now that my expectations are recalibrated).
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post #542 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HansR View Post

To b.greenway's comments: I think what you are used to and comparing to is key. Honestly, when I first got the 2910, it blew away what I thought SD could do. Main gripe was the occasional Macrblocking. Problem is, now I am comparing the 2930 to the 2910. I not only expect no step backwards, but - at $850 list - a step forward in video quality.

If I had never seen the 2910 (or anything comparable or better), I'm sure that (while I might be wondering if there is a way to improve sharpness or reduce the mB effect) I would have been very pleased, not disappointed.

Oddly enough however, my review was completed at a dealer/friend who was closed for the day so I had ample time to try out lots of different players for comparison. He had the 2910, 1730, and of course the 2930CI. (and a Vantage Calibre but that's another story) And I of course brought along my XA1, which coincidently isn't the end all of up-conversion as many would seem to indicate.

I found the 2930 quickly rendered the 2910 irrelevant; I'm starting to wonder if the displays used aren't to blame here. I understand that you use a 1080p display, are you taking the resolution all the way up to 1080p? I wont argue that sending the display its native resolution isn't ideal but maybe the fact that I was using 720p minimized (or eliminated) some of these differences.
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post #543 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.greenway View Post

Which will undoubtedly illustrate the disconnect of my observations versus Hans findings. The last player I viewed DVD on at any length was a Denon DVD-1910, followed by my current Toshiba HD-XA1, I just don't watch enough SD DVD to warrant another player in the equipment rack, or at least that's what I thought until I spent the day with the 2930CI. If the possibility presents itself in a way that I can stomach (i.e being able to justify yet another DVD player) I'll probably purchase one.

As far as color accuracy, I think it was spot on; of course most anyone else in the standard def DVD forum likely watches much more DVD than I do and may have different opinions. I noticed no real DVD artifacting that couldn't be attributed to the source its self. i.e excellent transfers continued to look excellent, mediocre transfers with artifacting and minor image noise improved and poor transfers while improved probably weren't improved enough to make me watch them.

As for an example as to macroblocking, there is a scene in Kill Bill 1 where the Bride and Vernita are chatting in the kitchen, with previous DVD players I could always detect a bit of macroblocking in the yellow wall between them, this was not present on the 2930CI.

Thanks....how does the 2930 compare to the Toshiba for SD DVDs...in regards to film-based DVDs (Raiders a good example)?

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post #544 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

Thanks....how does the 2930 compare to the Toshiba for SD DVDs...in regards to film-based DVDs (Raiders a good example)?

No contest in my opinion, the Toshiba was good, the 2930 was a good deal better. Motion, sharpness, and color saturation were all superior with the Denon.
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post #545 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.greenway View Post

No contest in my opinion, the Toshiba was good, the 2930 was a good deal better. Motion, sharpness, and color saturation were all superior with the Denon.

That's impressive as I thought the Toshiba was quite good.

One more question: Are there any issues with YC delay, black or white clipping issues, video levels, excessive pixel cropping. Have you had a chance to test these core items?

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post #546 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.greenway View Post

I found the 2930 quickly rendered the 2910 irrelevant; I'm starting to wonder if the displays used aren't to blame here. I understand that you use a 1080p display, are you taking the resolution all the way up to 1080p? I wont argue that sending the display its native resolution isn't ideal but maybe the fact that I was using 720p minimized (or eliminated) some of these differences.

You hit on a key point here. I am feeding the display it's native input to (in theory) completely remove the display from the scaling/deinterlacing equation, let alone from serial scaling processes which would also be suboptimal in theory. (I could feed it 480p to only scale once, but then I am depending on inferior scaling in the set)

I have definitely found when I feed a lower rez image (720p, for example, from the 2910) I get less Macroblocking. Didn't even try this on the 2930 because, to my previous comment, I did notice a loss of sharpness. The display simply doesn't have as good quality a scaler (nor do most) as a stand alone or as in the 2910.
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post #547 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b.greenway View Post

No contest in my opinion, the Toshiba was good, the 2930 was a good deal better. Motion, sharpness, and color saturation were all superior with the Denon.

I agree on that. All the critical reviews I have read indicate that neither the Toshiba nor the Sony/Samsung Blu-rays do nearly as good a job in upscaling SD. I didn't compare Toshiba, but the dealer I got my machine from had a $1,000 Samsung Blu-Ray, and it was also no contest - even compared to the 2910.
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post #548 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidHir View Post

That's impressive as I thought the Toshiba was quite good.

One more question: Are there any issues with YC delay, black or white clipping issues, video levels, excessive pixel cropping. Have you had a chance to test these core items?

The Toshibas' are good, but relatively speaking I found the 2930 better. I noticed no B/W clipping during calibration or pixel cropping (that is if you consider DVE an accurate measure of this)

As to YC delay I noticed no visible smearing, while not specifically tested for I saw no evidence to lead me to believe it was present.
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post #549 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 08:31 PM
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Steviec, can you comment on the sound via analog outs of the 2930 vs. 3910/5910?
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post #550 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 08:37 PM
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steviec,

I'm using the Oppo 970 right now as you know...usually at 1080i HDMI (sometimes I use 480p component too). In what ways is 2930 image superior with film-based material?

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post #551 of 4938 Old 08-10-2006, 11:33 PM
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I talked to a Tweeter dealer yesterday and he said they will start selling the 3930 on Aug. 22.
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post #552 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 06:30 AM
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Well this is getting interesting. I'm going to order a 2930 from my local dealer this afternoon. Hopefully it doesn't take too long to arrive.
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post #553 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steviec View Post

The 2930 is the best player on the market and I am going to keep it in my setup.

Just wait for the 3930!
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post #554 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 06:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Steviec, can you comment on the sound via analog outs of the 2930 vs. 3910/5910?

The 2930 uses the same audio DACs as the 2200 and 2910. They are simply not as good as the audio DACs in the 2900 or the 3910 or the 5910, although you need a good audio system to appreciate the differences (and of course, be using the analog outs).
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post #555 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by OCDMedic View Post

I talked to a Tweeter dealer yesterday and he said they will start selling the 3930 on Aug. 22.

And I talked to Denon's director of product development at U.S. headquarters yesterday and he said the '3930 has been delayed and won't be available until September. Go figure.
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post #556 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 07:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post

The 2930 uses the same audio DACs as the 2200 and 2910. They are simply not as good as the audio DACs in the 2900 or the 3910 or the 5910, although you need a good audio system to appreciate the differences (and of course, be using the analog outs).

True, but DACs only tell part of the story. Power supplies, caps and design can have an even greater impact IMO.
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post #557 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

True, but DACs only tell part of the story. Power supplies, caps and design can have an even greater impact IMO.

True, but the 3930 will be better than the 2930 for all of that (the 3910 was considerably better than the 2910 for power supply/build quality/etc).
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post #558 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

True, but DACs only tell part of the story. Power supplies, caps and design can have an even greater impact IMO.

What are caps -- capacitors? And, if so, how do they affect performance?
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post #559 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post

True, but the 3930 will be better than the 2930 for all of that (the 3910 was considerably better than the 2910 for power supply/build quality/etc).

Oh sure... all that... but there's a thread in the Speakers section that is debating how much difference speaker cables can make.

DAC's and build components will have a difference on the sound, but how much, and will it be noticed by the listener? Will the listener's system actually be able to transfer that difference into noticeable sound? And regardless of how fine the system is, it can all go for naught simply by having lousy room acoustics.

Not arguing just stating the obvious. I'm getting the 2930. It has the same DAC's as my Denon receiver, which is just fine for me and my system. I'll also use the D-link. So my audio side has no issues of real import.

That said... the video side is another story. Will the difference on my 50" Panny be noticable? Hmm...

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post #560 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s2silber View Post

What are caps -- capacitors? And, if so, how do they affect performance?


Yep, you're right on. Capacitors vary in size and design and are critical to good sound as the audio signal must pass through them at some point.

I'm sure some of our more technical members can disect good from bad and how their implementation has a bearing on the sound you eventually get from the analog outputs.

DACs are overrated when it comes to end result audio performance IMO. Sure, it's important to turn zeros and ones into an analog form, but it's what you do that that analog signal after it comes from the DAC that has a substantial impact on overall sound.
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post #561 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 10:56 AM
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I would think the PQ difference between the 2930 and 3930 would be evident on a well calibrated 50" display. It's always the question of "how much" better and whether it's worth the extra money if that's all one is concerned about (like me). It's always a personal call.

I'm trying to get a local retailer to let me demo the 2930 overnight. One place told me on the phone a few minutes ago than the product is too new to do so right now. But, I'm going up there after work tonight and trying to talk them into it. I'm in the position of "how much" better will this be than my Oppo 970.

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post #562 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 11:22 AM
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I am really curious to see the video quality differences between the 2930 and the 3910. Once the 3930 comes out, the deals will really start to fly on the 3910...

What do you guys think?
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post #563 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terkalas View Post

I am really curious to see the video quality differences between the 2930 and the 3910. Once the 3930 comes out, the deals will really start to fly on the 3910...

What do you guys think?

I would think so. Did this happen to the 2900 when the 3910 came out? It makes little sense to me to sell the 3910 the same price as the 3930.

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post #564 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 11:44 AM
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I remember when the 3910 came out the 2900 was reduced by 30% from Authorized dealers.

Sorry to drop off topic guys..........
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post #565 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shane55 View Post

Oh sure... all that... but there's a thread in the Speakers section that is debating how much difference speaker cables can make.

DAC's and build components will have a difference on the sound, but how much, and will it be noticed by the listener? Will the listener's system actually be able to transfer that difference into noticeable sound? And regardless of how fine the system is, it can all go for naught simply by having lousy room acoustics.

We're actually in agreement. There are many, many factors that influence audio. But if you're looking for top audio performance, I assume you start with high end speaker wires and a high end audio system (speakers/receiver/preamp/etc) to begin with. (If you have crappy speakers, then none of this discussion is meaningful since you won't be able to hear any difference between most players.) IMO, the weakest link in your system will determine audio performance more than anything else, and that is why the audio DACs are important - they determine the best your player can sound, using the analog outputs, and are therefore an important limiting factor to audio performance - no matter how good the rest of your system is, a player with inferior DACs will never match a player with better DACs, assuming the same speakers/speaker wire/etc. Thus, if you take the same audio system and merely compare the 3910 and 2910, you should be able to hear a difference between these 2 players, assuming you have a good enough system to be able to hear that difference.
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post #566 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillP View Post

We're actually in agreement. There are many, many factors that influence audio. But if you're looking for top audio performance, I assume you start with high end speaker wires and a high end audio system (speakers/receiver/preamp/etc) to begin with. (If you have crappy speakers, then none of this discussion is meaningful since you won't be able to hear any difference between most players.) IMO, the weakest link in your system will determine audio performance more than anything else, and that is why the audio DACs are important - they determine the best your player can sound, using the analog outputs, and are therefore an important limiting factor to audio performance - no matter how good the rest of your system is, a player with inferior DACs will never match a player with better DACs, assuming the same speakers/speaker wire/etc. Thus, if you take the same audio system and merely compare the 3910 and 2910, you should be able to hear a difference between these 2 players, assuming you have a good enough system to be able to hear that difference.

Yeah Bill... I know we're saying the same thing, and I really like your phrase "...the weakest link in your system will determine audio performance more than anything else..."

My point is that the BB-DAC's in my receiver are 'good enough' for my system, room, ears, NEEDS, etc, and they are the same as in the 2930. It's the video differences between the two units that may actually be more important or critical or noticeable to me.

But life is compromise (especially marriage)... so this is actually an interim unit. It is something that will last me through the HD-DVD war. Once that's ironed out, the vid. processing (for SD-DVD's) in second or third generation HD units may kick the 3930's butt anyway, so the only reason to keep either unit will be it's audio - SACD, DVD-A ability.

But my guess is that the video processing of the 2930 will be good enough' for me as well. Compromise.

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post #567 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 02:12 PM
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Yes, it always comes down to compromise and diminishing returns as you go up the price chain. The 3910 has consistently been reported as having slightly better PQ with a greater improvement for audio. Since the 3930 is not yet available, it's impossible to know how the 3930 will stack up against the 2930 (will the difference in price be worth it?). I agree with you that the 2930 sounds like a great player, and is certainly "good enough" for most people. Some obviously already bought the 5910 (for $3500!!), and for that market, I have a feeling they will want the 3930. I am happy sticking with my 3910 until I get into the high def arena. My wish list is for a Denon universal player for BD + HD-DVD + SACD.
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post #568 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
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My wish list is for a Denon universal player for BD + HD-DVD + SACD.

Ok... me too, but either before I plunk down the cash for the 2930 (not likely), or loooong after (more likely... if at all)!

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post #569 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 07:14 PM
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I ordered a 2930 tonight from my local Tweeter affiliate. Should be in stock next Friday. My Marantz DV7600 is going to be donated to good will.
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post #570 of 4938 Old 08-11-2006, 07:29 PM
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Personally I'm going to be more interested to see how the 3930 stacks up against the 5910CI.

If I can get the performance of the 5910CI for the price of the 3930, why not?
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