Denon DVD-3930 & DVD-2930 w/Realta T2 Chip Coming September- - Page 25 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #721 of 4938 Old 08-21-2006, 07:24 PM
Member
 
DJSloan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I posted this a few days ago on the 2910 thread:

2 channel "L/R" vs 5.1 channel "Front L/R"
Is there any difference between the 2 channel out and 5.1 Front L/R analog outputs when listening to 2 channel music? i.e. burr-browns used for both or different analog output stage?

I was trying to A/B a few sets of cables and discovered I always liked the one that was on the 5.1 outs. On the other hand, I couldn't tell the difference between 3 different 0.5 meter audio interconncts.


Then I noticed this when I translated that German site on Google:

"output stage with two, Stereo exclusive D/A transducers operated in the highly precise double Differenzial mode (PCM 1796 of Burr Brown) make possible an authentic 2-Kanal-Audio-Erlebnis. Denons Advanced AL24 processing polishes Stereosignale with 24 dissolution of bit and a DVD audiotypical Samplingrate of 192 kHz effectively up. For a not less inspiring three-dimensional sound the multi-channel board makes again three D/A transducers available operated in the simple Differenzial mode (likewise Burr Brown PCM 1796), while the AL24 processing plus on all channels refined 24 bit-exact multi-channel audio data makes available"

How many Burr-Brown DAC's come in Denon players 3 or 5? It would seem they need to have 5 (3 for MC and 2 for stereo) since all are active at once. So the 2 channel stereo outputs use a similar DACs but in a "better" mode than the 5.1 channel outs? Is there any reason I could have thought the 5.1 outs were better?

The article also makes it sound as if the AL24 processing is active for dolby digital in addition to CD PCM. Is that correct?
DJSloan is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #722 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 06:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kucharsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 3,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Anyone else notice the Denon USA website promised owner's manuals and data sheets for the 3930 "8/18/2006," but they're still not there?
kucharsk is offline  
post #723 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 09:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Geof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Eden NY
Posts: 6,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

Anyone else notice the Denon USA website promised owner's manuals and data sheets for the 3930 "8/18/2006," but they're still not there?

When I saw that I thought that 8/18 was when they added the "Coming Soon" note....

Geof
Geof is online now  
post #724 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 12:15 PM
Member
 
DustinTaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJSloan View Post

I posted this a few days ago on the 2910 thread:

2 channel "L/R" vs 5.1 channel "Front L/R"
Is there any difference between the 2 channel out and 5.1 Front L/R analog outputs when listening to 2 channel music? i.e. burr-browns used for both or different analog output stage?

I was trying to A/B a few sets of cables and discovered I always liked the one that was on the 5.1 outs. On the other hand, I couldn't tell the difference between 3 different 0.5 meter audio interconncts.


Then I noticed this when I translated that German site on Google:

"output stage with two, Stereo exclusive D/A transducers operated in the highly precise double Differenzial mode (PCM 1796 of Burr Brown) make possible an authentic 2-Kanal-Audio-Erlebnis. Denons Advanced AL24 processing polishes Stereosignale with 24 dissolution of bit and a DVD audiotypical Samplingrate of 192 kHz effectively up. For a not less inspiring three-dimensional sound the multi-channel board makes again three D/A transducers available operated in the simple Differenzial mode (likewise Burr Brown PCM 1796), while the AL24 processing plus on all channels refined 24 bit-exact multi-channel audio data makes available"

How many Burr-Brown DAC's come in Denon players 3 or 5? It would seem they need to have 5 (3 for MC and 2 for stereo) since all are active at once. So the 2 channel stereo outputs use a similar DACs but in a "better" mode than the 5.1 channel outs? Is there any reason I could have thought the 5.1 outs were better?

The article also makes it sound as if the AL24 processing is active for dolby digital in addition to CD PCM. Is that correct?


I am also curious to know about this. I plan on hooking the 2930 up ONLY to multi-channel inputs on my receiver (because I don't want the additional D/A - A/D conversion to happen in my receiver through the standard 2-channel inputs). I figure while listening to 2-channel music it'll only use the Front Left and Right outputs anyway, correct (or with bass enhancer on, FL, FR, Sub)?
DustinTaj is offline  
post #725 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 12:27 PM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 73
It's common for some (better) universal players to have "beefier" and separate electronics for 2ch L/R outputs. Some units have balanced outputs for the L/R in addition to the singled ended outputs. 2ch is still what most people use for critical listening of music. There may be some even higher end units with equal/top grade electronics for all channels.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #726 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 12:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shane55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 1,491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I'll be able to test this once my unit arrives on Friday, but when I had the Pio 79avi, there was no discernable difference between front L&R and Stereo out, nor digital out. The DAC's in my receiver were nearly as good (or my speakers / ears were not able to produce / discern a difference) as those in the 79avi.

So for Stereo there was no great benefit to either of the modes of delivery to the receiver.

shane

"Yes Eve... I like to watch." - Chauncey Gardener.

My HT Setup:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
shane55 is offline  
post #727 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 01:01 PM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 73
I've never noticed anybody/anything stating that the 79avi 2ch outputs are different setups than the 6ch. It would be good to know either way. The upper end Denons are popular for modding because of the 2ch dual differential DACs for the separate L/R.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #728 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 01:10 PM
AVS Special Member
 
shane55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 1,491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

I've never noticed anybody/anything stating that the 79avi 2ch outputs are different setups than the 6ch. It would be good to know either way.

Yeah... me neither, but I just thought I'd throw my observations into the ring.


Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

The upper end Denons are popular for modding because of the 2ch dual differential DACs for the separate L/R.

Well, that sounds good... but being that the DACs in the 2930 are the same as those in my Denon receiver, I had assumed that I'd hear absolutely no difference.

So... are you including the 2930 in the 'upper end' category?

shane

"Yes Eve... I like to watch." - Chauncey Gardener.

My HT Setup:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
shane55 is offline  
post #729 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 01:28 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Djoel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,532
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Does any know if the new 3930 will be released in silver?
Have not seen any indication of this.

Thanks
Djoel


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Djoel is offline  
post #730 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 01:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
kucharsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 3,930
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

When I saw that I thought that 8/18 was when they added the "Coming Soon" note....

You may be right; Denon's web site certainly isn't very clear about it...

But then again, it's crystal clear compared to the actual text in their user's manuals.
kucharsk is offline  
post #731 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 01:31 PM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by shane55 View Post

Yeah... me neither, but I just thought I'd throw my observations into the ring.



Well, that sounds good... but being that the DACs in the 2930 are the same as those in my Denon receiver, I had assumed that I'd hear absolutely no difference.

So... are you including the 2930 in the 'upper end' category?

shane

I don't think the 2930 uses the dual differential setup like the 3910/3930. Also, using the same DAC part # is only part of the picture. There is stuff on each side of it.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #732 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 02:25 PM
Member
 
DustinTaj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 51
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
For me, I don't think using the 2-ch L&R is an option. If I go that route and I plug it into, say, CD-IN on my receiver, the receiver will do an additional A/D and D/A conversion on it unless I run it in "direct" mode (which would eliminate my sub woofer).

Using the 5.1 outputs on the Denon and having "bass enhancer" on, I can get 2-channel + subwoofer without my receiver digitizing the signal (right?).

At least I don't think my receiver A/D's the multi-channel inputs. Does anyone know? It's an Onkyo TX DS676.

Basically, I want to have 2-channel include the sub because it's better than my main speaker's bass output. I thought this would be the best way to do it.

-DD
DustinTaj is offline  
post #733 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 05:24 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kevin C Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,428
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 25
The 3910/3930 use dual differential DACs? That's news to me. Most $5000 pre/pros don't even use these. Can someone post a link to that info?

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kevin C Brown is offline  
post #734 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 07:34 PM
Member
 
DJSloan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It was from the German-English google translation of this site

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/...a_news_2.shtml
DJSloan is offline  
post #735 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 07:40 PM
Member
 
DJSloan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 176
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The site quotes 1499 euro thats $1918. Are us americans getting a deal or is their tax just really high?
DJSloan is offline  
post #736 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 08:29 PM
Advanced Member
 
a_ok2me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 906
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Djoel View Post

Does any know if the new 3930 will be released in silver?
Have not seen any indication of this.

Thanks
Djoel

There was a link referring to picture of it in an earlier post.
a_ok2me is offline  
post #737 of 4938 Old 08-22-2006, 10:17 PM
Member
 
kidkoala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Okay, I'm looking for the low-down on the 2930. I'm looking for a SOTA DVD player that will upscale to 1080p for my Samsung 5088 DLP. I've read that the 2930 is the best player out there (barring it's higher sibling) for SD DVDs. Is this true? I don't think I'll be jumping on the HD-DVD bandwagon for now, so if the Denon is better than the Toshiba HD-DVD player at playing SD DVDs than that's what I'm looking for. Anyone care to chime in?
kidkoala is offline  
post #738 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 06:03 AM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

The 3910/3930 use dual differential DACs? That's news to me. Most $5000 pre/pros don't even use these. Can someone post a link to that info?

Dual or just differential? For some reason I said dual. Could be my mistake. I think I remember where I read it. Let me go check when I get a chance. There are some players that use two per channel and one I've read about, Esoteric X0-1, that uses four.

I looked where I thought I saw it, but it didn't say dual. Sorry.


larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #739 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 09:08 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,384
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 423
For those of you who have the 2930ci, how well does it zoom or scale non-anamorphic widescreen DVDs? This was something I wasn't able test when I demo'd the unit.

DavidHir is online now  
post #740 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 10:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bri1270's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,782
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
It only does a 2.0 zoom, so it crops more than I'd like. I don't recall it being all that good. I can check again when I get it back into the system.
bri1270 is offline  
post #741 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 10:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
DavidHir's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 10,384
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 153 Post(s)
Liked: 423
That's too bad. The Denon 2900 I'm using is horrible at zooming properly.

DavidHir is online now  
post #742 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 10:49 AM
Advanced Member
 
Jase H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: España
Posts: 576
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by PooperScooper View Post

Dual or just differential? For some reason I said dual. Could be my mistake. I think I remember where I read it. Let me go check when I get a chance. There are some players that use two per channel and one I've read about, Esoteric X0-1, that uses four.

I looked where I thought I saw it, but it didn't say dual. Sorry.


larry

This German site mentions it (in German!):-

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/...a_news_2.shtml

3 x Burr Brown PCM1796 in differential mode for six channels. Also mentions 2 x Burr Brown PCM1796 in dual differential mode for 2ch stuff (my german isn't too hot!).
Jase H is offline  
post #743 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 10:54 AM
Moderator
 
PooperScooper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Leominster MA
Posts: 19,805
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 73
Ok, I babblefished some of that so that's maybe where I saw it. I thought I had saw it about the 3910 also, but I can't find it. I don't think the 3910 is dual, just differential.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
PooperScooper is offline  
post #744 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 11:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
shane55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Left Coast
Posts: 1,491
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jase H View Post

This German site mentions it (in German!):-

http://www.areadvd.de/hardware/2006/...a_news_2.shtml

3 x Burr Brown PCM1796 in differential mode for six channels. Also mentions 2 x Burr Brown PCM1796 in dual differential mode for 2ch stuff (my german isn't too hot!).

Ok, that sounds good... but what is the actual advantage or improvement to sound in that configuration, and why (if it's not to technical).

Thanks

shane

"Yes Eve... I like to watch." - Chauncey Gardener.

My HT Setup:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
shane55 is offline  
post #745 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 12:00 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jigesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hopewell Junction, NY
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by shane55 View Post

Ok, that sounds good... but what is the actual advantage or improvement to sound in that configuration, and why (if it's not to technical).

Thanks

shane

PCM1796 is a stereo DAC, that means it has two DACs inside each handling one channel (L or R). See Page 5, Pin diagram of the above link. It accepts serial audio data input at pin 5 and outputs L analog (current) signal at pins 25 and 26 (in push-pull way or differential way) and outputs R analog (current) signal at pins 17 and 18 (again, in push-pull way or differential way). This differential way rejects common noise well (or produces a high CMRR - common mode rejection ratio). But if it provides really any overall improvement or not depends upon what the next stages in the circuit do with these differential signals. If they really want to treat these signals in end-to-end differential way (thereby needing larger number of subsequent components in order to process the signal differentially), the cost could be higher. Most commonly, these differential outputs are converted to single-ended as shown on Page 7 of the above link (see right-hand-side current-to-voltage converter and filter stages for L and R outputs); and some would argue the benefit of differential signals could be lost.
jigesh is offline  
post #746 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 12:51 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Geof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Eden NY
Posts: 6,010
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by jigesh View Post

PCM1796 is a stereo DAC, that means it has two DACs inside each handling one channel (L or R). See Page 5, Pin diagram of the above link. It accepts serial audio data input at pin 5 and outputs L analog (current) signal at pins 25 and 26 (in push-pull way or differential way) and outputs R analog (current) signal at pins 17 and 18 (again, in push-pull way or differential way). This differential way rejects common noise well (or produces a high CMRR - common mode rejection ratio). But if it provides really any overall improvement or not depends upon what the next stages in the circuit do with these differential signals. If they really want to treat these signals in end-to-end differential way (thereby needing larger number of subsequent components in order to process the signal differentially), the cost could be higher. Most commonly, these differential outputs are converted to single-ended as shown on Page 7 of the above link (see right-hand-side current-to-voltage converter and filter stages for L and R outputs); and some would argue the benefit of differential signals could be lost.

What you say is true but this DAC can also be used in a dual differential mode. In the "Mono mode" (see page 30) both Stereo DACs are operating on one channel of data (either Left or Right as defined on page 30). In essence in this mode you have two differential DACs whose outputs can be summed together differentially. The advantage of a dual differential mode is you gain another 3 dB S/N ratio. This is because both DACs are on the same die (piece of silicon) and therefore behave virtually identically.

Geof
Geof is online now  
post #747 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 01:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jigesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hopewell Junction, NY
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

What you say is true but this DAC can also be used in a dual differential mode. In the "Mono mode" (see page 30) both Stereo DACs are operating on one channel of data (either Left or Right as defined on page 30). In essence in this mode you have two differential DACs whose outputs can be summed together differentially. The advantage of a dual differential mode is you gain another 3 dB S/N ratio. This is because both DACs are on the same die (piece of silicon) and therefore behave virtually identically.

Correct. I explained the differential part and you explained the dual differential part. Thank you.
jigesh is offline  
post #748 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 01:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
s2silber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
So, in what way do these dualing differentials make the '3930 a demonstrably superior audio component?
s2silber is offline  
post #749 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 01:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jigesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Hopewell Junction, NY
Posts: 1,080
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by s2silber View Post

So, in what way do these dualing differentials make the '3930 a demonstrably superior audio component?

Though others might disagree, I think the above information (diff or dual diff) alone is inconclusive without knowing the entire audio stage design. Theoretically, dual diff should give better audio; but how better, perceptible or not, etc. are difficult to say.

By the way, I see you live in Cortlandt, I live in Croton on Hdsn. Looks like we are neighbor AVS members.
jigesh is offline  
post #750 of 4938 Old 08-23-2006, 02:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Djoel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 7,532
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 162
Quote:
Originally Posted by a_ok2me View Post

There was a link referring to picture of it in an earlier post.


I just found out Denon no longer doing silver, Thats too bad.

Djoel


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Djoel is offline  
Reply DVD Players (Standard Def)

Tags
Denon Blu Ray Dvd Cd Player

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off