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post #91 of 189 Old 07-13-2006, 12:40 AM
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Well, I am really looking fpor the player that is going to sound the best for HT. My display is not going to give me any picture that is significantly better than the one I have now...

That being said, I want to get the one that is going to sound the best via digital out.
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post #92 of 189 Old 07-13-2006, 12:58 AM
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solondandy, Have you compared the 9600 to the arcam or onkyo?
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post #93 of 189 Old 07-13-2006, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT_New_Guy View Post

Well, I am really looking fpor the player that is going to sound the best for HT.

That being said, I want to get the one that is going to sound the best via digital out.

Digital out? Like Toslink or Coax? If that is what you are planning to do, I honestly think that your Pio 79 will do just as well as the Arcam or Denon or any other player that can accurately output a clean digital signal.

If you're spending big money for a DVD - CD player, you want analog out to take advantage of the DAC's and other processing that the player will give. In 99% of cases digital-out is digital-out, and you will never be able to tell the difference between players.

shane

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post #94 of 189 Old 07-13-2006, 06:13 PM
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No mutlchannel SACD?? Not for me.
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post #95 of 189 Old 07-13-2006, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattburk View Post

solondandy, Have you compared the 9600 to the arcam or onkyo?

Never saw the Marantz but I had two Onkyo SP1000's, the Onkyo had a better picture than the Arcam but it wasn't worth keeping because of occasional lip sync issues and it was picky with discs.
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post #96 of 189 Old 07-14-2006, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shane55 View Post



In 99% of cases digital-out is digital-out, and you will never be able to tell the difference between players.

shane


Is this true? i get a MUCH better sound out of the Pioneer Elite 79AVi than I did from my Sony DVD player. This is what has prompted me to ask.
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post #97 of 189 Old 07-14-2006, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT_New_Guy View Post

Is this true? i get a MUCH better sound out of the Pioneer Elite 79AVi than I did from my Sony DVD player. This is what has prompted me to ask.

Yes my friend, it is true. Through the analog (6x) cables, my 79avi sounded slightly better than when fed via coax (or Toslink) to my Denon rcvr. The 79avi's DAC's were slightly smoother and had a bit more warmth. One of the main reasons I got my 79avi was for the improved sound through it's DAC's

Edit: And so, one of the reasons I was interested in the Arcam was because of the DAC's and it's glorious audio... which would be defeated by going out digital.

Digital out from my CD player, or either of my DVD players was identical. Ones and zeros. If the digital feed is accurate, there should be ZERO difference.

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post #98 of 189 Old 07-14-2006, 05:56 PM
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So, if I were to get the ARCAM then I would need to feed the receiver the analog outs to get the best sound? or would it even matter for HT?
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post #99 of 189 Old 07-14-2006, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HT_New_Guy View Post

So, if I were to get the ARCAM then I would need to feed the receiver the analog outs to get the best sound? or would it even matter for HT?

You would want to use the analog for two channel CD play and the digital for DVD movies.
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post #100 of 189 Old 07-14-2006, 08:57 PM
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Did ARCAM decide that DVD-Audio was great and that SACD sucks?
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post #101 of 189 Old 07-15-2006, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Did ARCAM decide that DVD-Audio was great and that SACD sucks?

Who knows, they obviously have implemented DVD Audio successfully in their other players. My guess is judging by the way that Arcam does things, they probably thought they could do a better job of implementing SACD by stepping out of the cookie cutter mold and got a little too fancy with it. That is OK though, for those that buy a DVD player for video and 2 channel audio, you still come away with a competitive machine. Further, for those convinced that HDMI makes a difference you get a nice specified player with the highly regarded ABT scaler.
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post #102 of 189 Old 07-15-2006, 03:34 PM
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Quote:


My guess is judging by the way that Arcam does things, they probably thought they could do a better job of implementing SACD by stepping out of the cookie cutter mold and got a little too fancy with it.

Or they do what other higher end universals do - optimize for 2 channel because it the most commonly used and something went wrong with the "unoptimized" part. Optmized is a bad word here, but I can't think of a better one ATM.

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post #103 of 189 Old 07-15-2006, 05:52 PM
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I guess the technology they use- mask of silence or something? - can mask 2 ch noise but not multichannel noise.

Quote:


Or they do what other higher end universals do - optimize for 2 channel because it the most commonly used ...

Not in my system.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #104 of 189 Old 07-16-2006, 05:59 AM
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One thing to note about digital output of Redbook audio from DVD players is that some players automatically upsample to 48000 instead of outputting the native 44100. Many PCs with digital outs do this as well.

My experience is that this upsampling definitely degrades the audio quality when input to and converted by a DAC. I get listener fatigue -- i.e. headaches -- when the audio is upsampled this way.

I'm not sure what the Arcam outputs, but I'm almost positive it is 44100. I believe that Benchmark Audio, makers of the DAC1, published a list of DVD players that output native 44100 for Redbook.
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post #105 of 189 Old 07-16-2006, 02:55 PM
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I had a Sony TA-E9000ES pre/pro, and now a Lexicon. Both can display what the freq and bit depth of the source is. At least with the Pio players I've had, they are were all native 44.1/16. What players output 48kHz for CD? I am not aware of any.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #106 of 189 Old 07-17-2006, 12:10 PM
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Here's the issued I referred to:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...ok&r=&session=

I never found the list of offending players referenced in the post.
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post #107 of 189 Old 07-17-2006, 06:29 PM
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Sounds like the guy is putting forth a lot of conjecture.

Besides, a lot of players now feature upsampling to 96 kHz. I'm not going to say it's a good or bad thing, but I do know that some people like the effect. (And the Anthem AVM's and D1 upsample withiin the pre/pro.)

In the old days, sample rate converters didn't necessarily do a good job. But today, I'd be surprised if anyone could actually hear the difference between a 16/44.1 CD and one upsampled to 48 kHz.

The Philips 963 he mentions actually gets pretty good marks for CD and SACD playback.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #108 of 189 Old 07-18-2006, 01:11 AM
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I thought about this and thought about this, because I have *never* heard of any player upsampling 44.1 kHz to 48 kHz and not giving you a choice in the matter. (And I *do* read a lot of HT mags in addition to places like here and HTF and Audio Asylum, etc.)

I think I figured out how that guy got confused.

A lot of modern DVD players *do* have a setting for LPCM output. In the old days, a lot of receivers and pre/pro couldn't accept a 96 kHz signal. So players have a setting of *maximum* LPCM freq. Usually, you can change it between 48 kHz and 96 kHz. But 44.1 kHz CD still comes out as 44.1 kHz, no matter what the setting is. All this setting affects, is whether 96 kHz signals are downsampled to 48 kHz, or not. The old Digital Audio Disc format. (DVD-V's which were meant mostly for audio with a 24/94 format, a la Chesky and a very few others.)

I think that's where that dude got confused.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

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post #109 of 189 Old 07-18-2006, 04:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

I thought about this and thought about this, because I have *never* heard of any player upsampling 44.1 kHz to 48 kHz and not giving you a choice in the matter. (And I *do* read a lot of HT mags in addition to places like here and HTF and Audio Asylum, etc.)

I think I figured out how that guy got confused.

A lot of modern DVD players *do* have a setting for LPCM output. In the old days, a lot of receivers and pre/pro couldn't accept a 96 kHz signal. So players have a setting of *maximum* LPCM freq. Usually, you can change it between 48 kHz and 96 kHz. But 44.1 kHz CD still comes out as 44.1 kHz, no matter what the setting is. All this setting affects, is whether 96 kHz signals are downsampled to 48 kHz, or not. The old Digital Audio Disc format. (DVD-V's which were meant mostly for audio with a 24/94 format, a la Chesky and a very few others.)

I think that's where that dude got confused.

Bingo.

larry

Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work. -- Thomas Alva Edison
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post #110 of 189 Old 07-18-2006, 12:38 PM
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Dunno. Since Benchmark never published a list, maybe this is a bogus issue.

I will say that I tested my PC outputting Redbook audio to a Benchmark DAC1. The sound was pretty bad, and I got a headache in minutes due to the harsh high end. Turns out the PC was outputting the digital signal at 48k. So from my experience, 48k output is to avoided...which is apparently easy.
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post #111 of 189 Old 07-20-2006, 12:42 PM
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Got my replacement DV137, they tested it at the store and apparently it is up to snuff.
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post #112 of 189 Old 07-21-2006, 06:45 AM
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Still waiting for my replacement. My AVP700 is also in the shop, and the repair man went on vacation for 10 days, so I'm out of luck for a while.

I have to say I'm frustrated with this mess.
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post #113 of 189 Old 07-22-2006, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregeas View Post

Still waiting for my replacement. My AVP700 is also in the shop, and the repair man went on vacation for 10 days, so I'm out of luck for a while.

I have to say I'm frustrated with this mess.

I feel for you...fortunately I was able to get a new AVP700 and although it was a hassle, it is a nice piece. My new 137 has not shown any of the issues that my old one did, I got me fingers crossed. It is hard to believe that Arcam's latest offerings have been so problematic, the stuff is made in England, the quality control I would assume is better than "average". Fortunately they support their dealers well and in the case of the 137, they replaced it somewhat quickly. Still a bit of a hassle though, there is nothing worse than having your gear down.
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post #114 of 189 Old 07-22-2006, 02:39 PM
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When I bought my Arcam A85 a few years it had problems right out of the box and the volume knob was bent.
You could hear it scraping on the front panel when you turned it.
Dealer tried to replace it with an open box unit. I refused and insisted they bring in a new one, which they did.

Glad they have solved the problem with the 137. It's still not available in Canada and the local dealer hasn't even heard of it.
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post #115 of 189 Old 07-22-2006, 05:00 PM
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Why would you assume that? A country that no longer has any native car production can hardly be considered "the workshop of the world" anymore or a leading technology or engineering power.


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..the stuff is made in England, the quality control I would assume is better than "average"...

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post #116 of 189 Old 07-22-2006, 06:25 PM
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Why would you assume that? A country that no longer has any native car production can hardly be considered "the workshop of the world" anymore or a leading technology or engineering power.

Compared to the mass marketed Asian stuff my assumption Arcam to me qualifies as a more intimate ownership experience. The management is actively visible and responsive on a level which is not typical. Further they have moved up the ranks pretty fast for a smaller company, the products are either always competitive or class leading.
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post #117 of 189 Old 07-23-2006, 07:22 AM
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I agree that a number of senior folks from Arcam regularly post on this (and other forums). However I think there QC seems a bit weak - there seem to be a lot of people buying there products as soon as they are released, and then having issues. This happened with the AVR300, the AVP700 and now the DV137.

It's nice that Arcam respond quickly and try to fix problems, but wouldn't it be better if they tested their equipment better in the first place?
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post #118 of 189 Old 07-23-2006, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicholas View Post

I agree that a number of senior folks from Arcam regularly post on this (and other forums). However I think there QC seems a bit weak - there seem to be a lot of people buying there products as soon as they are released, and then having issues. This happened with the AVR300, the AVP700 and now the DV137.

It's nice that Arcam respond quickly and try to fix problems, but wouldn't it be better if they tested their equipment better in the first place?

I guess you are right to some extent. Ultimately I am ok weathering the issues because the AVP700 is an excellent value and the 137 has the potential to be as well. I think Arcam has been so progressive as far as pushing the performance envelope and this has come at the expense of some QC, it is still a decent trade off for me as long as my dealer and Arcam will make things right.
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post #119 of 189 Old 07-23-2006, 03:25 PM
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If the AVP700 could handle audio from HDMI I would be all over it as well. I was really disappointed when the AVR350 came out and only had video switching on HDMI. I guess they are waiting for 1.3. before adding audio processing via HDMI.
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post #120 of 189 Old 07-27-2006, 11:14 AM
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I just set up my DV137 which replaces my FMJDV29. I would say the picture has a slight edge and the sound is equal. The set up menu is a big improvement. I think the big difference is the addition of SACD and the $1000 price drop. I set the unit on Auto resolution format and it looks great, but did discover I had to power down the unit after making resolution changes. I was told this was because of my projector, but did not have that issue with the DV29.

I had 3 top end Denon,s before I went to Arcam and they were all very disappointing. Lots of features that didn't work well and lots of freeze ups and problems. Warranty service for a factory defect on my Dennon (I discovered from this forum) cost me $300 because I discovered the problem 13 months after buying it. I would think when they know they have a problem they would cover it.

I have been very satisfied with my Arcam units and like the idea they have a 5 year warranty.
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