Oppo Digital DV-970HD FAQ / Brain dump - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicoh View Post

Please be nice, maiden post :-)

After reading this and the 971 thread, I ordered my 970 a couple of days ago. I can hardly wait!

As I understand, DVD-A and SACD will not have digital output? I wonder if this is a hardware limitation or something at the firmware level... I would hate to use an analog connection for audio.

Also, just to add some more detail to George's reply, neither DVD-A nor SACD can be passed over a Toslink or SPDIF output (which are used for Dolby Digital and DTS typically) due to copy protection and bandwidth limitations.

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post #272 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 09:51 AM
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Why does Oppo not recommend the 970 for displays over 50"? If I hook it up to my 60" display will I get bad PQ?
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post #273 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerplyer View Post

I just placed an order for mine 970HD on 06/01/06 for local pick up and now it is backordered unitl 06/15/06. Can you belive this, I think they should rethink the supply/demand curve. Does anyone know where else I can get it sooner?

Otherwise, I think they should give a discount price on the 971HD until they have stock.


Earlier in this thread another member said OPPO was limiting their initial stock to less than 100 units for the first couple of weeks and the only source would be through them. They wanted to create an initial small run direct to the customers so they could gather feedback on the product.

After the initial sales it's been said that their other resellers would receive units for sale. One would assume that is the mid-June date

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post #274 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadzby View Post

Thanks for the response.

Although content purchased from the iTunes music store is protected with Apple's proprietary DRM Fairplay, MP-3 and MPEG-4 AAC are both ISO international standards - AAC is not proprietary at all. A large percentage of iPod users obtain their music by ripping their CD's into unprotected AAC format, so future support of MPEG AAC in the 970HD via a firmware update would be very useful to them.

The format itself is proprietary, not the protection. It would be like using AATrac, MP4, APE, FLAC, MKV and other formats. Some of these formats are open license (OGG/OGM for example), whereas others have constituants which own the rights to the license, and it can either be free, or cost something per unit sold/yearly fee.

So yes, your audio isn't protected because you ripped it yourself, but the format it has been mastered to is not licensed to the DV-970HD, which means it will not play.
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post #275 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stosh View Post

Why is this unit recommended for folks with external scalers and the 971 for everyone else?

I posted this on the 971H Braindump:

Like any device, you want to feed the best signal you can to be processed. For a scaler, you want to provide it with pretty much the RAW MPEG video stream that is contained on the DVD player.

A DVD player which is outputting a progressive image is a DVD player which is applying filters to the video stream. Every filter used "molests" the original intent of the MPEG stream, to the point where you can pretty much negate the high end filtering aspects of the external scaler.

In the case of the OPDV971H, you are processing the feed first through a Faroudja chipset, which will apply its own cadence and pulldowns, motion adaptive de-interlacing, CUE removal and maintanence, DNR, and a plathera of other enhancers. And this is just a progressive alteration. Now, this "enhanced" version of the MPEG information is now sent to another processor (external scaler) which will apply even more filters and enhancers. This long chain of alterations is not ideal.

Ideally you want to feed the scaler the cleanest stream as possible, to allow the scaler to do what is was designed for: high end filtering. A clean transport will ensure tha best possible scaling, which will in turn increase the video fidelity of the final displayed image.

So, OPPO isn't saying that you shouldn't do it, they are saying that there are better options available that will produce much better results.
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post #276 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:04 AM
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My favorite Fed Ex delivery person just left my 970HD at my office. I will hook it up to my Anthem D2 this evening and put it through its' paces over the weekend. And, with no new HD releases, this week, the Oppo could not have shown up at a better time.

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post #277 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stosh View Post

I'm looking for a DVD player that doesn't have macroblocking, that I can (at least initially) pass the signal unaltered to my Sony xbr800 display and let the internal scaler of the display upconvert the image. SACD and DVD-A are an added bonus. On the surface this appears to be a great choice for me. Why is this unit recommended for folks with external scalers and the 971 for everyone else?

To add on to George's response, SACD can't be transmitted through optical or coaxial due to DRM. However, DVD-Audio can be transported, but only in Stereo (2.0 channel).
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post #278 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powerplyer View Post

Does anyone know where else I can get it sooner?

As MikeSRC said, no retailers have stock. They are looking at receiving stock mid-June, the same time OPPO will be shipping out back-ordered units.

Quote:


Otherwise, I think they should give a discount price on the 971HD until they have stock.

That makes absolutely no business sense, since OPPO made no claims about having enough stock to service all orders. Yes it is upsetting that it has been backordered, but there is no need to issue a discount ticket.
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post #279 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy sullivan View Post

Why does Oppo not recommend the 970 for displays over 50"? If I hook it up to my 60" display will I get bad PQ?

The ability to discern the quality of the de-interlacing increases as the television size increases. Because the DV970HD does not do as good as a job of de-interlacing, it is not as well suited for larger displays as the OPDV971H. Does this mean you can't us the DV-970HD on your 60" television? Of course not, OPPO just feels that you would be better off using the OPDV971H rather than their DV-970HD.
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post #280 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

To add on to George's response, SACD can't be transmitted through optical or coaxial due to DRM. However, DVD-Audio can be transported, but only in Stereo (2.0 channel).

thanks for the response. I plan on using a HDMI - > DVI cable to my display, a optical or digital coaxial cable to my receiver for the audio, and if I purchase this unit, the 5.1 analog jacks to my receiver for SACD and DVD-A, so I won't be passing that signal through the digital outputs of the unit.

I understand why this unit is perfect for use with an external video processor, but I was looking at it from the other side, and that is, why is this unit not good for use without an external video processor?
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post #281 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:34 AM
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First review of the DV-970HD has been posted at ***************, but Mike didn't seem to give the DV-970HD a score.
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post #282 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stosh View Post

I understand why this unit is perfect for use with an external video processor, but I was looking at it from the other side, and that is, why is this unit not good for use without an external video processor?

Some of the key ingrediants of a good DVD player are its de-interlacing capabilities, its ability to handle multiple cadences (Film based 3:2 pulldown and 2:2 cadence are the most important), and overall picture clarity (this includes CUE and Y/C Delay response, sharpness, color reproduction and so forth).

For the most part, the DV-970HD passes many of the criteria of a great DVD player, but fails two primary catagories.

First, the de-interlacing aspects are lower than that of the current "High Score" player: the OPDV971H. Because youa are more prone to see inginterlacing and aliasing errors with the DV-970HD, the overall picture quality is much lower.

Second, the DV-970HD does not support proper film based 2:2 Cadence support, which means that your PAL films will be very jagged compared to their NTSC counterparts.

These errors, and more, can be compensated for by an external scaler, which is why OPPO recommends the DV-970HD for this type of application.
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post #283 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

The format itself is proprietary, not the protection. It would be like using AATrac, MP4, APE, FLAC, MKV and other formats. Some of these formats are open license (OGG/OGM for example), whereas others have constituants which own the rights to the license, and it can either be free, or cost something per unit sold/yearly fee.

So yes, your audio isn't protected because you ripped it yourself, but the format it has been mastered to is not licensed to the DV-970HD, which means it will not play.

Yes I believe a license is required for AAC, just as a license is required for nearly every audio codec, including existing supported formats in the 970HD such as MP-3. So it boils down to a business decision for Oppo to decide if adding new features to their 970HD or future players to support iPod users is worth the cost of another license. In my case at least, playback support for unprotected iPod content would be a very attractive feature.
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post #284 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 11:03 AM
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PooperScooper - as I mentioned earlier, the 480i CUE issue was addressed in the production models. Since you have a pre-production unit, you may indeed be seeing CUE on it. Part of the reason that the release was delayed was to address the CUE issue.

Excellent! So it wasn't a firmware fix? A while back I asked somebody about the delay and they didn't think it was to fix the CUE problem.

larry

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post #285 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 11:11 AM
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Cue addressed: ICP not so.
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post #286 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadzby View Post

In my case at least, playback support for unprotected iPod content would be a very attractive feature.

It would be very attractive, but can also be very costly on a business standpoint. You may want to read the MPEG-4 AAC Licensing Fees prices (remember that the license price is per channel per quarter. For a 2 channel encode, you are looking at paying 4 dollars per unit each year). This is very steep, especially if not all of your consumers are using the feature.
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post #287 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

To add on to George's response, SACD can't be transmitted through optical or coaxial due to DRM. However, DVD-Audio can be transported, but only in Stereo (2.0 channel).

I haven't read up on SACD DRM yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it can be circumvented. The real issue at hand tho is the the hardware limitation mentioned above (bandwidth)... time to dig out my analog cables.


It would have been nice to pump DTS into my receiver and have 'it' do the processing... just like movies.
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post #288 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 11:47 AM
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Well,

It looks like the OPDV971H is still best.
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post #289 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Montemayor View Post

Digital output is possible through HDMI with DVD-A and SACD discs. For SACD, however, it will pass decoded PCM channels and not the original DSD bitstream. If I understand DSD correctly it supposedly has more resolution than 192kHz PCM. I don't know how much of an audible loss you'll get from this conversion.

Its substantial on better audio equipment. If SACD audio is important try to stay with the DSD analog stream if possible.

I'm still trying to figure out if running HDMI 480i into the DCDi chip in my projector is the way to go.

John
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post #290 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 12:01 PM
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Well i got my 970 this morning. I have done a limited initial test. I am running a 10ft DVI->HDMI cable from my Samsung HLN617W(61"DLP). I setup the player for my display(haven't calibrated with DVE yet). I tried 480p, 720p,1080i with Gladiator and Hollowman 2(Netflix). First the 480p, very smooth and detailed picture(pleasantly surprised). Next up the 720p, slightly sharper and smoother picture but not as big of a difference as i would have thought. The 1080i was , to my eyes, indistinguishable to the 720p. Overall i think the PQ with Standard Def DVD's is excellent especially for the money. It beats out the previous 3 HDMI upconverting players i have tried recently. Those models were:
1. LG LDA511 - Too "waxy" looking and lacked good color depth. Plays almost everything the 970 does though. Divx and Xvid playback very good.
2. Samsung HD 860 - Lacked color depth and not as sharp as i would like. Also had trouble with Divx and Xvid discs.
3. Toshiba 5790 - Excellent picture(very close to the 970) but it is an annoying player. Slow response to the remote commands. Froze up alot. Didn't play Divx or Xvid files.

Divx and Xvid playback is excellent. The 970 does a good job of scaling files to their proper aspect ratios(the LG was good at this also). Another great thing about the 970 is it has excellent remote response and navigating DVD menus is lightning fast. I haven't tried DVD-A or SACD yet because i am waiting for my Emotiva UL processor with HDMI switcher to ship. I just don't want the hassle of hooking up the analog outs because it would require me to dismantle too much equipment to get at the back of my current receiver i am using as a pre/pro. All in all i am very happy with what i have seen so far.

You only live once. Get what you want!
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post #291 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

Like any device, you want to feed the best signal you can to be processed. For a scaler, you want to provide it with pretty much the RAW MPEG video stream that is contained on the DVD player.

[...]

Ideally you want to feed the scaler the cleanest stream as possible, to allow the scaler to do what is was designed for: high end filtering. A clean transport will ensure tha best possible scaling, which will in turn increase the video fidelity of the final displayed image.

So I'm still waiting for someone to rave about the 970HD's digital 480i performance to an external scaler, but I've not seen it so far. I've read a couple of posts from folks that say the SDI mod'd players they're comparing the Oppo to still produce a better picture.

These comments didn't surprise me, since the HDMI vs SDI solution involves passing the signal through add'l circuitry in the Oppo on it's way to the scaler. There's also the question about Oppo's (or Mediatek's) decision to use 4:4:4 upsampling vs. 4:2:2 upsampling as being another potential area of image deterioration, but I'm still wondering if any differences between the Oppo solution and an SDI solution are negligible or significant? Are the SDI folks understandably trying to rationalize the additional investment required, or is their truly a visible difference on, say, a 50" display between the two approaches?

Lastly, has anyone with a good internal or external scaler compared the 970's 480i HDMI vs. it's 480i component image connected to the same scaler?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

/steve
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post #292 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

It would be very attractive, but can also be very costly on a business standpoint. You may want to read the MPEG-4 AAC Licensing Fees prices (remember that the license price is per channel per quarter. For a 2 channel encode, you are looking at paying 4 dollars per unit each year). This is very steep, especially if not all of your consumers are using the feature.

I just read the table, and your example overestimates the per-unit license fee by 4x. Units sold in one quarter would not be charged again in subsequent quarters.

We're heading OT, so I'll leave it to Oppo to decide if a decoder cost starting at $1/player and dropping below that for quarterly volumes > 100k makes sense from a business perspective or not.
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post #293 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve L View Post

So I'm still waiting for someone to rave about the 970HD's digital 480i performance to an external scaler, but I've not seen it so far. I've read a couple of posts from folks that say the SDI mod'd players they're comparing the Oppo to still produce a better picture.

To be fair, no one has the DVD player yet (really). You will likely have to wait until next week, if not later, for reports from people who have the DV-970HD and external processors.

And the SDI modders in this thread have been talking about modified OPDV971H's, which share pretty much the same decoding chipset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadzby View Post

I just read the table, and your example overestimates the per-unit license fee by 4x. Units sold in one quarter would not be charged again in subsequent quarters.

The table itself does not talk abotu licensing beyond the first quarter the unit is produced. However, I believe it is a recursive fee that extends to the life of the production unit (at least it was when I looked into licensing back in 2001. Could have been reduced to quarterly production and not the life of the product). But in either case, it is a measure which will cost the company money, and in the end, profits is what keeps you operational.
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post #294 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

To be fair, no one has the DVD player yet (really). You will likely have to wait until next week, if not later, for reports from people who have the DV-970HD and external processors.

I wait with bated breath. The real promise of this player for me and many others was to use it as a pure digital transport, so I assumed those who have been beta testing it for the past month or so would have already put it through those paces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

And the SDI modders in this thread have been talking about modified OPDV971H's, which share pretty much the same decoding chipset.

If that is the case, reports of SDI's superiority would be even more disturbing news. I believe Josh and Stacey compared it with Denon and Panasonic mod'd players.

/steve
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post #295 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 01:00 PM
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I just got mine! Double boxed, player inside a black synthetic cloth envelope. Nice! Hooked it up to my Panasonic TH-42PX60U plasma via HDMI. Played "Nine Lives" DVD for a few minutes. Looks great! I honestly cannot tell if 480i, 480p, 720p, or 1080i is best. They all look good. In the case of the LOWER resolutions, my plasma is doing the scaling and de-interlacing. Of course, I only had a few minutes to watch (this is my lunch hour). I am very happy so far.
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post #296 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 01:15 PM
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What are some external scalers that folks feel produce better results with the 480i output than the built-in scalers in the 971? How much does a "better" external scaler run?
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post #297 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 01:32 PM
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Just got mine also. The packaging is really well done. I'm running it to a new Z4. Initial impression is really good, you can tell it doesn't handle diags as well, but everything else is nice. Definitely nicer build quality. I'm going to test some PAL this weekend to see how much of a difference there is compared to the 971.
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post #298 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 01:39 PM
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The most common external scalers are those designed by Genesis (Faroudja), ABT (iScan VP30) and Anthem (Gennum VXP). The prices range from 2000~6500 MSRP.
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post #299 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 01:45 PM
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Quote:


Ahh, ok, I thought it was CUE. I see the jaggy lines on the red triangle in the Snell and Wilcox pattern and I know it's one or the other.

The pattern on DVE is really for ICP only. It is encoded as interlaced. You should use the CUE/ICP patterns on the ABT disc.
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post #300 of 6316 Old 06-02-2006, 01:51 PM
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Anybody tried the 970 with a Denon 3806 via HDMI? Played with it a bit last night but there were HDCP problems..path is 970>3806>VP30>display. The VP30 info plate was showing HDCP going on and off. Player works fine leaving the 3806 out of the loop so I'm sure it's something with the 3806....3806 works fine with the Toshiba HD-A1 configured the same way, HD-A1>3806>VP30>display.

Going to try later today but wondered if anyone else had the same setup.
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