Upconverting VCR? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 24 Old 09-19-2006, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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I know this doesn't exactly fit here, but there was no other place that seemed better. Is there such a thing as an upconverting VCR that will upconvert tapes that were recorded with a video camera (i.e. home movies, etc) so that they can be put on DVD? I know that there are units with both DVD and VCR built in, but the ultimate goal here is to record the VHS tapes to computer, edit them to fit a DVD, and then burn to DVD. I already have all the software and equipment to do the above, except for a high quality VCR, preferably one that upsamples in some way.

Thanks.

-- Martin

PS No copyright material will be copied. This is only for personally recorded stuff.
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post #2 of 24 Old 09-19-2006, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschiff View Post

preferably one that upsamples in some way.

What exactly do you think needs "upsampling"???!! The output of a VCR is EXACTLY the same resolution as a DVD.

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post #3 of 24 Old 09-19-2006, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cavu View Post

What exactly do you think needs "upsampling"???!! The output of a VCR is EXACTLY the same resolution as a DVD.

wrong

VHS resolution is 352x240 (NTSC) or 352x288 (PAL) and up to 320.
DVD resolution is 720x480 for NTSC or 720x576 for PAL

DVD horizontal resolution 2.25 times better than VHS.
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post #4 of 24 Old 09-19-2006, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschiff View Post

I know this doesn't exactly fit here, but there was no other place that seemed better. Is there such a thing as an upconverting VCR that will upconvert tapes that were recorded with a video camera (i.e. home movies, etc) so that they can be put on DVD? I know that there are units with both DVD and VCR built in, but the ultimate goal here is to record the VHS tapes to computer, edit them to fit a DVD, and then burn to DVD. I already have all the software and equipment to do the above, except for a high quality VCR, preferably one that upsamples in some way.

Thanks.

-- Martin

PS No copyright material will be copied. This is only for personally recorded stuff.

Almost any vhs/dvd recorder combo unit can do this. IMO, you don't need to try and upconvert your original sources. Just leave them the way they are and transfer them to the dvd recorder.

If you really want a vhs/dvd recorder that can upconvert then follow this link
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/todvdrecowso.html
but only the dvd part will upconvert.
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post #5 of 24 Old 09-19-2006, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromancer View Post

wrong

The output of a VCR is 480i. The native output of a standard def DVD player is 480i. A DVD recorder has 480i inputs.

The output of a VCR will feed the input of a DVD recorder directly. There is no requirement for "upconversion".

I did not refer to VHS, VHS-C, VHS-S, 8mm, Beta, SVHS-C, HI8 or any other tape format.

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post #6 of 24 Old 09-19-2006, 04:15 PM
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VCRs are NOT 480i. They output to a 480i TV, but their signal is not 480i.

Composite video does not output 480i, neither does S-video. Only component video will give you full bandwith capable of true 480i reproduction.

I do agree that the best way to do the task the OP outlined is through a standard VHS DVD dual deck.

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post #7 of 24 Old 09-19-2006, 05:40 PM
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In this case, upconversion is the correct term. He wants to upconvert composite to component. Upconverting DVD players are misnomers. Upscaling is more appropriate unless you want to nit pick and talk about 480i -> 1080i output.

larry

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post #8 of 24 Old 09-19-2006, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromancer View Post

Almost any vhs/dvd recorder combo unit can do this. IMO, you don't need to try and upconvert your original sources. Just leave them the way they are and transfer them to the dvd recorder.

If you really want a vhs/dvd recorder that can upconvert then follow this link
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/todvdrecowso.html
but only the dvd part will upconvert.

Thanks! That's the one that I had found. Looks like I am going to have to transfer to DVD and then rip it to the PC in order to edit and combine tapes, unless there is a device that will allow me to capture from hdmi or component directly to a PC.

I have a high end video capture card, but it only does composite and s-video. I also have firewire for digital video.

-- Martin
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post #9 of 24 Old 09-20-2006, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschiff View Post

Thanks! That's the one that I had found. Looks like I am going to have to transfer to DVD and then rip it to the PC in order to edit and combine tapes, unless there is a device that will allow me to capture from hdmi or component directly to a PC.

I have a high end video capture card, but it only does composite and s-video. I also have firewire for digital video.

-- Martin

Or you could buy a JVC HMD-H5U D-VHS HDTV VCR
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...ist&sku=348125
HDTV Recorder

The HMD-H5U is set to record and playback any of the 18 different HDTV standards for video. It will output most HDTV display formats including 1080i, 720p and 480i/480p. With multiple digital recording qualities, the unit can record for up to 35 hours using a 7 hour D-VHS cassette.

Signal System
NTSC Tuner, Record and Playback
ATSC 1080i, 720p, 480i, 480p Output

Tape Format
D-VHS, S-VHS, VHS

Input and Output Connectors
Optical Digital- HDTV Proprietary (x 1 output only)
Firewire- 4-Pin (x 2 input only)
S-Video- 4-Pin (x 1 input, 1 output)
Composite Video- RCA (x 2 input, 1 output)
RF- Coaxial (x 1 input)
Audio- RCA (x 2 input, 2 output, stereo pairs)
Antenna- RF Coaxial (x 1 input, 1 output)
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post #10 of 24 Old 09-21-2006, 02:04 PM
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Wierd, someone must have been on the same page as you...:
http://blog.scifi.com/tech/archives/...ts_you_up.html

Upconverts your video "casette tape" (whatever that is) over hdmi to HD res.
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post #11 of 24 Old 09-21-2006, 02:46 PM
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Who want to upconvert a image on a vhs tape. I only watch anything on VHS when I am over my mother in law's house and god the PQ is horrible.
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post #12 of 24 Old 09-21-2006, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroys88 View Post

Who want to upconvert a image on a vhs tape. I only watch anything on VHS when I am over my mother in law's house and god the PQ is horrible.

I personally wouldn't want to do it, but I just listed the link for the original thread starter if he was curious.
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post #13 of 24 Old 09-21-2006, 06:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forceflow View Post

VCRs are NOT 480i. They output to a 480i TV, but their signal is not 480i.

Composite video does not output 480i, neither does S-video. Only component video will give you full bandwith capable of true 480i reproduction.

I do agree that the best way to do the task the OP outlined is through a standard VHS DVD dual deck.

Not exactly true. All of these output 480i, full 480i. Depending on the nature of the source content, there are advantages to going for transmission that keeps luma and chroma separate. On a DVD source which is encoded YCbCr, keeping those three signals full bandwidth and separate provides advantages. On sources like broadcast NTSC, there is no loss in staying with composite/S-video, since the source is already luma and chroma smashed together.
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post #14 of 24 Old 09-22-2006, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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There are no commercial tapes being converted. As you say, we can just buy those already on DVD. That is not the issue at all. These are recordings that were made over the years and are being converted to DVD. Since DVD is a higher resolution image than VHS, we want to be able to upscale the image.

-- Martin
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post #15 of 24 Old 09-22-2006, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschiff View Post

There are no commercial tapes being converted. As you say, we can just buy those already on DVD. That is not the issue at all. These are recordings that were made over the years and are being converted to DVD. Since DVD is a higher resolution image than VHS, we want to be able to upscale the image.

-- Martin

Only problem is that you will see alot of artifacts in the upscaling.
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post #16 of 24 Old 09-22-2006, 08:32 AM
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I haven't seen anyone point out that the intermediate MPEG2 conversion step to DVD on a dedicated VHS->DVD Recording deck will cause some loss in quality, if the end result is to edit the video for DVD authoring purposes. Going composite or S/Video in to a high-quality capture card will eliminate at least one decode/recode step, and will give you better source material for doing some image processing (a la VirtualDub) that can improve perceived image quality.
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post #17 of 24 Old 09-22-2006, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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jdrumm,

Good point. I'm thinking that S-Video might be the best option. We'll probably get one of the combo recorders and use that both for direct dubbing and dubbing to computer (not at the same time).

-- Martin
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post #18 of 24 Old 09-22-2006, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeromancer View Post

VHS resolution is 352x240 (NTSC) or 352x288 (PAL) and up to 320.
DVD resolution is 720x480 for NTSC or 720x576 for PAL
DVD horizontal resolution 2.25 times better than VHS.

While I was referring to the output of an analog VCR and not the actual media, here are the correct resolutions of the various media referred to in this thread and others. Note that for the sake of simplicity, I am limiting my discussion to analog.

First, all NTSC standard products exhibit a vertical resolution of 480 horizontal scan lines (PAL is 576).

The media vary in their analog horizontal resolution due to limited available bandwidth; this results in a variable number of discrete, discernible dots that can be formed on a given scan line (some discussions refer to horizontal resolution as being measured in vertical lines, each vertical line being formed by a dot on each of the 480 NTSC scan lines). This horizontal resolution varies from about 240 for VHS to 720 for DVD. But the vertical resolution is always 480 (NTSC)!

Code:
                    Resolution
                    Hor   Ver
Standard VHS:       240 x 480
Pre-taped NTSC TV:  300 x 480
Live NTSC TV:       330 x 480
Laserdisc:          420 x 480
Super VHS:          420 x 480
Hi-8:               420 x 480
DV VCR:             500 x 480
DVD:                720 x 480
All of these media are normally reproduced on players which produce a "480i" analog signal on composite, S-video or component outputs.

Every one will produce 480 scan lines but the horizontal resolution will vary, dependent on the source. But the output is always still 480i.

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post #19 of 24 Old 09-23-2006, 06:10 PM
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Just my opinion here, but VHS PQ looks noticeably better to my eyes when it's output through the component video or firewire outs on my DVHS deck rather than through the composite or s-video outs. In that linked article, one response was saying that this idea is stupid, but I don't see it as such.
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post #20 of 24 Old 09-24-2006, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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What DVHS deck are you using, Brian?

-- Martin
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post #21 of 24 Old 09-24-2006, 02:06 PM
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Originally Posted by mschiff View Post

What DVHS deck are you using, Brian?

-- Martin

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post #22 of 24 Old 04-03-2007, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian81 View Post

Just my opinion here, but VHS PQ looks noticeably better to my eyes when it's output through the component video or firewire outs on my DVHS deck rather than through the composite or s-video outs. In that linked article, one response was saying that this idea is stupid, but I don't see it as such.

My Panasonic DMR-ES40V outputs vhs signals at 480p using component outputs.
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post #23 of 24 Old 04-03-2007, 09:07 AM
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Skip the VCR altogether and capture directly from the camcorder. The results will be much better. Also, there are various tools you can use once the video has been captured before burning.

If you have the knowledge, you can get a better looking DVD than any of the suggestions provided here. The question is, how important is that last 5%?

Bob
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post #24 of 24 Old 04-03-2007, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbmcgee View Post

Skip the VCR altogether and capture directly from the camcorder. The results will be much better. Also, there are various tools you can use once the video has been captured before burning.

If you have the knowledge, you can get a better looking DVD than any of the suggestions provided here. The question is, how important is that last 5%?

Agreed, or if you have S-video inputs on your PC, use a SVHS player. The fewer steps you take the better.
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