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post #271 of 1057 Old 06-23-2008, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by dalidvd View Post

I did an interesting experiment today, comparing the sound of the 58 sending DSD over HDMI to the Integra 9.8 pre/pro, vs. having the 58 transmit PCM (5.1 channel) to the 9.8. In the latter case, the 58 is converting DSD into PCM. Since I'm using Audyssey MultiEQ on the 9.8, in both cases, the DSD data must be converted to PCM, so I wanted to see if there was a difference.

The difference is huge! The sound completely changes for reasons that are not clear to me. First, there is a very significant level change of around 6 dB. Second, even correcting for that, there seems a significant increase in dynamics and bass using the PCM data from the 58.

Has anyone compared direct DSD playback (with Audyssey turned on) to the PCM playback on multichannel SACDs? I'm trying to see if others have noticed similar differences. One explanation I have for why the 9.8 sounds a bit compressed when fed DSD data is that it has to do additional work converting the DSD bitstream into PCM, before applying equalization, and this takes away some of the headroom available.

Other thoughts?


Sure. At a minimum, post this same question (change a few of the words?) in AVS Forums:

1. In "The Official Integra DTC-9.8..." forum under audio/amps now 170 pages long!, and
2. In "Best Sounding Pre/Pros..." forum under audio/amps now 62 pages long!

Cheers
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post #272 of 1057 Old 06-24-2008, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalidvd View Post

I did an interesting experiment today, comparing the sound of the 58 sending DSD over HDMI to the Integra 9.8 pre/pro, vs. having the 58 transmit PCM (5.1 channel) to the 9.8. In the latter case, the 58 is converting DSD into PCM. Since I'm using Audyssey MultiEQ on the 9.8, in both cases, the DSD data must be converted to PCM, so I wanted to see if there was a difference.

The difference is huge! The sound completely changes for reasons that are not clear to me. First, there is a very significant level change of around 6 dB. Second, even correcting for that, there seems a significant increase in dynamics and bass using the PCM data from the 58.

Has anyone compared direct DSD playback (with Audyssey turned on) to the PCM playback on multichannel SACDs? I'm trying to see if others have noticed similar differences. One explanation I have for why the 9.8 sounds a bit compressed when fed DSD data is that it has to do additional work converting the DSD bitstream into PCM, before applying equalization, and this takes away some of the headroom available.

Other thoughts?

Reported many times with the Oppo 980 and holds true for the DV-58 but it seems to be an issue for the DTC-9.8, rather than the players.

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post #273 of 1057 Old 06-24-2008, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Reported many times with the Oppo 980 and holds true for the DV-58 but it seems to be an issue for the DTC-9.8, rather than the players.

Yes, but the real question is why is this happening? In principle, there should be no difference between transcoding DSD into PCM in the player vs. the processor. The level difference is even more bizarre.

I'm wondering if this indicates a more subtle bug having to do with the way Audyssey interacts with the various formats.
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post #274 of 1057 Old 06-24-2008, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by dalidvd View Post

Yes, but the real question is why is this happening? In principle, there should be no difference between transcoding DSD into PCM in the player vs. the processor. The level difference is even more bizarre.

Agreed.

Quote:
I'm wondering if this indicates a more subtle bug having to do with the way Audyssey interacts with the various formats.

Doubt it. Audyssey gets PCM either way. Defeat Audyssey and see if you don't still have those differences.

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post #275 of 1057 Old 06-24-2008, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

If you are using 5.1 for SACD...


Since I mentioned it here, and since you are the 5.1 guy for SACD disk play...

I got my Marantz 8001 today. 2 channel only playerer of CD and SACD discs.

Wow!

Still haven't read the manual (who cares at a time like this), but the _*magic*_ is back in my home theater for playback of music discs.

For the moment, I'm running only L/R RCA from the 8001 into a Denon 3808 which is in "pure direct" mode and showing output of L/R and subwoofer, on the front panel.

Cheers
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post #276 of 1057 Old 06-25-2008, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by habnab View Post

For the moment, I'm running only L/R RCA from the 8001 into a Denon 3808 which is in "pure direct" mode and showing output of L/R and subwoofer, on the front panel.

That is strange. If you are outputting only stereo SACD from L/R analog inputs, there is no sub/LFE signal. If you using the "pure direct" mode on the Denon, there is no bass management and, therefore, there should be no sub output nor any indication of sub input or output.

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post #277 of 1057 Old 06-25-2008, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That is strange. If you are outputting only stereo SACD from L/R analog inputs, there is no sub/LFE signal. If you using the "pure direct" mode on the Denon, there is no bass management and, therefore, there should be no sub output nor any indication of sub input or output.

Without any sort of standard terminology in the industry who knows what "pure direct" means, does it go through ADC/DAC without any other DSP except the crossover? Is that Denon's idea of "pure direct"? does it just pass it through as analog audio to the preamp section?
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post #278 of 1057 Old 06-25-2008, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Without any sort of standard terminology in the industry who knows what "pure direct" means, does it go through ADC/DAC without any other DSP except the crossover? Is that Denon's idea of "pure direct"? does it just pass it through as analog audio to the preamp section?

Good point. My impression with Denon/Onkyo is that "pure direct" avoids A/D but, of course, every case is different.

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post #279 of 1057 Old 06-25-2008, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by habnab View Post

For the moment, I'm running only L/R RCA from the 8001 into a Denon 3808 which is in "pure direct" mode and showing output of L/R and subwoofer, on the front panel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

That is strange. If you are outputting only stereo SACD from L/R analog inputs, there is no sub/LFE signal. If you using the "pure direct" mode on the Denon, there is no bass management and, therefore, there should be no sub output nor any indication of sub input or output.


I agree, and that was what I expected to get. But what I got was the 3808 still doing some processing so that my pair of subs is clearly putting out significant bass.

With regard to "direct" vs. "pure direct" the diff may be only that the font panel display goes out when "pure" is selected.

This whole modern AVR thing makes my head spin.

Anyway, I was up till 3AM this morning listening. It's even enjoyable when I'm away from the main listening seat, say working at the computer.

I clearly will have to find how to stop the subs and get the unaltered L/R signal straight to the amp, for comparison. Even though I'll lose some bass slam (my main L/R speakers don't have extreme bass extention), my hunch is that the mid-range will see a further improvement.

Then to be complete, I'll connect a digital cable (either Toslink or coax), consider my options with that (at least 2 if not more) and listen to all of those.

I'm also in the middle of saving the AVS pages for the 3808; something like 70 for the bug list, and another 170 for info/comments on the 3808/4308.

Phew, a lot to go through.

I'm also wending my way through digital processors and those 2 AVS forums I mentioned yesterday. Of course, the question there is would I have to set aside this almost new 3808 if I went that direction? I mean I rather like this 3808.

Cheers
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post #280 of 1057 Old 06-25-2008, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habnab View Post

I agree, and that was what I expected to get. But what I got was the 3808 still doing some processing so that my pair of subs is clearly putting out significant bass.

The 3808 has bass management for the 2channel direct/stereo input. Manual p. 31. The "direct" mode simply bypasses the tone controls (sic). Manual p. 41.

Quote:


With regard to "direct" vs. "pure direct" the diff may be only that the font panel display goes out when "pure" is selected.

Basically, yes. Manual p. 41.

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post #281 of 1057 Old 06-25-2008, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The 3808 has bass management for the 2channel direct/stereo input. Manual p. 31. The "direct" mode simply bypasses the tone controls (sic). Manual p. 41.

Basically, yes. Manual p. 41.

Pretty funny, spend all that money on an expensive SACD player (Ok, not for Stereophile) with great DACs and a great output section for the price and redigitize it when it hits the receiver so it can go through the losses that entails and an inferior set of DACs.

Makes sense to me.
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post #282 of 1057 Old 06-25-2008, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The 3808 has bass management for the 2channel direct/stereo input. Manual p. 31. The "direct" mode simply bypasses the tone controls (sic). Manual p. 41.


Thanks for the 2 page refs.

It's even worse than I thought. on p. 31, 2 channel direct/stereo starts with a choice of basic or custom. Odds are last night I was set to basic, and therefore getting room eq. and SW x-over even though the front panel was showing "direct"

FWIW, I'm wondering why I ever bothered to buy a pair of subs. I'd have been far better off to take that sub money and buy a pair of Vandersteen 2ci speakers (excellent *full* range).

This whole modern .1 sub thing is starting to look (to me) like the invention of the movie crowd to permit joe 6pack being able to squeeze 5 small speakers into a small apartment room.

Oh well, i need a breather. My 58 will show up Fri/Mon and I'm going to address it then. The one bit of good news is that sure enough, once I got the SW/eq. out, the midrange then got better. Meaning even better than it was last night, and I thought it was mighty good last night.

FWIW, I implied that the 8001 could send some form of 2 channel digital from SACD, but read the manual an hour ago and see that it only outputs analog for SACD, and I'm not going to worry about pulling the CD as digital out. FWIW#2, the SACD sound is very slightly better than CD (same disc with 2 layers), fairly easy to hear: slightly more open and richer sound.

Cheers
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post #283 of 1057 Old 06-25-2008, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habnab View Post

Thanks for the 2 page refs.

It's even worse than I thought. on p. 31, 2 channel direct/stereo starts with a choice of basic or custom. Odds are last night I was set to basic, and therefore getting room eq. and SW x-over even though the front panel was showing "direct"

FWIW, I'm wondering why I ever bothered to buy a pair of subs. I'd have been far better off to take that sub money and buy a pair of Vandersteen 2ci speakers (excellent *full* range).

This whole modern .1 sub thing is starting to look (to me) like the invention of the movie crowd to permit joe 6pack being able to squeeze 5 small speakers into a small apartment room.

Oh well, i need a breather. My 58 will show up Fri/Mon and I'm going to address it then. The one bit of good news is that sure enough, once I got the SW/eq. out, the midrange then got better. Meaning even better than it was last night, and I thought it was mighty good last night.

FWIW, I implied that the 8001 could send some form of 2 channel digital from SACD, but read the manual an hour ago and see that it only outputs analog for SACD, and I'm not going to worry about pulling the CD as digital out. FWIW#2, the SACD sound is very slightly better than CD (same disc with 2 layers), fairly easy to hear: slightly more open and richer sound.

Cheers

If you wanna use a sub return the 8001, you are wasting your money, just use the 58 with a digital connection or its analog outputs if they are better than the receiver's DACs (think so) and you don't need the other bells and whistles.

The reasons for the subwoofer:

1. Easier to get deep, clean low bass without peaks and valleys in the bass output due to room interactions.

2. Way cheaper way to get clean, low bass than full range speakers with equivalent performance. My Energy Veritas 2.3 speakers are near full range and sell for $2.8k new (like anyone pays retail) but they cannot compete with my subwoofer below 80 hz for distortion levels and output or extension, try about $7k (Mirage OMD-28 comes to mind, close, but not as clean) to get equivalent extension, distortion and output levels, B&W 802Ds anyone, only $12k?

3. WAF is much higher with a subwoofer that can be hidden or disguised.

4. Did I mention WAF?

Against the subwoofer:
..... Uh, I am still trying to think of an against, give me time...... DSD to PCM conversion to get bass management if you don't let the 58 do it, assuming they still use DSD wide for this (the reason you have no time alignment for SACD in the player).
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post #284 of 1057 Old 06-28-2008, 07:53 AM
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I have discovered a problem with the DV-58. While it has been consistent in outputting DSD over HDMI, it has been very inconsistent about converting DSD to PCM for HDMI output. With about half the SACDs that I have tried, it will output 5.1 DSD as 5.1 PCM but, with the others, the processor (Anthem D2) is only getting stereo even though the DV-58 is playing the 5.1 tracks.

The problem is not associated simply with the label. Some labels seem to be OK, some are always played in stereo and some are 50:50. All the tested SACDs will play in 5.1 PCM (converted from DSD) on a different player connected to the same processor.

Has anyone else observed this? Does anyone have an idea what is going on?

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post #285 of 1057 Old 06-28-2008, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I have discovered a problem with the DV-58. While it has been consistent in outputting DSD over HDMI, it has been very inconsistent about converting DSD to PCM for HDMI output. With about half the SACDs that I have tried, it will output 5.1 DSD as 5.1 PCM but, with the others, the processor (Anthem D2) is only getting stereo even though the DV-58 is playing the 5.1 tracks.

The problem is not associated simply with the label. Some labels seem to be OK, some are always played in stereo and some are 50:50. All the tested SACDs will play in 5.1 PCM (converted from DSD) on a different player connected to the same processor.

Has anyone else observed this? Does anyone have an idea what is going on?

Stop playing around with that expensive but always obsolescent high end stuff and get yourself a sub $1k receiver that can handle DSD!
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post #286 of 1057 Old 06-28-2008, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Stop playing around with that expensive but always obsolescent high end stuff and get yourself a sub $1k receiver that can handle DSD!

Thanks for the help.

I have certain obligations which I would not have as a private consumer and must deal with such problems. I missed this issue because I had been using the Integra and, by chance, never tried an x.0 SACD on PCM with it.

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post #287 of 1057 Old 06-28-2008, 07:59 PM
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Will this player output 192khz stereo through the HDMI port? The manual says no but maybe they mean the optical or coaxial digital output.
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post #288 of 1057 Old 06-28-2008, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I have discovered a problem with the DV-58. While it has been consistent in outputting DSD over HDMI, it has been very inconsistent about converting DSD to PCM for HDMI output. With about half the SACDs that I have tried, it will output 5.1 DSD as 5.1 PCM but, with the others, the processor (Anthem D2) is only getting stereo even though the DV-58 is playing the 5.1 tracks.

The problem is not associated simply with the label. Some labels seem to be OK, some are always played in stereo and some are 50:50. All the tested SACDs will play in 5.1 PCM (converted from DSD) on a different player connected to the same processor.

Has anyone else observed this? Does anyone have an idea what is going on?

I have played back many SACDs on the 58 into my Integra 9.8, and have never witnessed this. It always either transmits pure DSD (if selected) or the proper 5.1 PCM @88khz. Sometimes, if the disc has no LFE channel, of course, it transmits 5.0 (or 4.0 for some BIS SACDs).

Do you have specific discs where the problem occurs? One of us could try to reproduce the experiment, if we had the same disc.
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post #289 of 1057 Old 06-29-2008, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Thanks for the help.

I have certain obligations which I would not have as a private consumer and must deal with such problems. I missed this issue because I had been using the Integra and, by chance, never tried an x.0 SACD on PCM with it.

Maybe if you put some fins, vacuum tubes, hand picked components and "special" wiring on the Integra you could pretend it is esoteric and all would be right with the world.

I am always surprised that these esoteric brands never bothered to incorporate DSD into their "high end" processors.
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post #290 of 1057 Old 06-29-2008, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dalidvd View Post

I have played back many SACDs on the 58 into my Integra 9.8, and have never witnessed this. It always either transmits pure DSD (if selected) or the proper 5.1 PCM @88khz. Sometimes, if the disc has no LFE channel, of course, it transmits 5.0 (or 4.0 for some BIS SACDs).

Do you have specific discs where the problem occurs? One of us could try to reproduce the experiment, if we had the same disc.

OK. Here's a list of what failed to give 5.0 output from the ones I tried yesterday:
SFSO Mahler: Das Klagende Lied
LSOLive Mahler #1 (Georgiev)
LSOLive Sibelius: Kullervo
ChannelClassics Mozart: Oboe Quartets
ChannelClassics Bach: Motets
Water Lily Mahler: #5
Philips Bartok: Bluebeard's Castle
da Capo Mozart: Early Symphonies (Fischer)
Deutsche Harmonia Mundi Handel: Messiah

Note the the two LSOLive SACDs are 5.0 but that another LSOLive (Elgar: Enigma Variations/Davis) is clearly marked 5.1 and that plays as 5.1 even via PCM so it is not label-related.

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post #291 of 1057 Old 06-29-2008, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

OK. Here's a list of what failed to give 5.0 output from the ones I tried yesterday:
SFSO Mahler: Das Klagende Lied
LSOLive Mahler #1 (Georgiev)
LSOLive Sibelius: Kullervo
ChannelClassics Mozart: Oboe Quartets
ChannelClassics Bach: Motets
Water Lily Mahler: #5
Philips Bartok: Bluebeard's Castle
da Capo Mozart: Early Symphonies (Fischer)
Deutsche Harmonia Mundi Handel: Messiah

Note the the two LSOLive SACDs are 5.0 but that another LSOLive (Elgar: Enigma Variations/Davis) is clearly marked 5.1 and that plays as 5.1 even via PCM so it is not label-related.

MOZART: Symphonies 38–41, "slightly more immediate" sounded like it was mixed by a pop music engineer, brittle top end, too much reverb (that is probably the hall though). Why do all these labels think that classical and baroque period music needs to have lots of reverberation? Good performances verging on painful to listen to because of the recording quality.

Did you figure out the LPCM issue?
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post #292 of 1057 Old 06-29-2008, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

OK. Here's a list of what failed to give 5.0 output from the ones I tried yesterday:
SFSO Mahler: Das Klagende Lied
LSOLive Mahler #1 (Georgiev)
LSOLive Sibelius: Kullervo
ChannelClassics Mozart: Oboe Quartets
ChannelClassics Bach: Motets
Water Lily Mahler: #5
Philips Bartok: Bluebeard's Castle
da Capo Mozart: Early Symphonies (Fischer)
Deutsche Harmonia Mundi Handel: Messiah

Note the the two LSOLive SACDs are 5.0 but that another LSOLive (Elgar: Enigma Variations/Davis) is clearly marked 5.1 and that plays as 5.1 even via PCM so it is not label-related.


Ah, as I feared, I have none of these. Let's try to converge on the label first.
As I type this, I am listening to SFSO Mahler Symphony #4, which is part of the same series as the Mahler disc in your list.

It plays fine on my 58 connected to the 9.8. It shows PCM 5.0 88khz, as expected. Do you have the Mahler #4? I also have the Mahler #1 in the same series.

I think I have one of the LSO Live discs, but I can't seem to find it (the Jurowski Rachmaninov Symphonic Dances disc).

In short, I haven't seen the problem you are alluding to.
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post #293 of 1057 Old 06-29-2008, 02:11 PM
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Kal,

In terms of the other labels, I do have some Channel Classics discs that play fine as well. I have the Rachel Podger Vivaldi La Stravaganza disc, which plays back fine in multichannel PCM or DSD.
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post #294 of 1057 Old 06-29-2008, 02:19 PM
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Is the Messiah disc on your list the one conducted by Nicholas Harnoncourt? I have that, and it plays back fine in MCH PCM or DSD....

In short, strange as it may seem, it must be a problem with the Anthem. What version of HDMI does it support?
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post #295 of 1057 Old 06-29-2008, 02:23 PM
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OK, convergence at last. I do indeed have the Messiah Deutsche Harmonia Mundi disc, of the Messiah conducted by Harnoncourt.

Playing back right now fine in MCH PCM 5.0 88.2 khz.

This is definitely a problem with the Anthem....
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post #296 of 1057 Old 06-29-2008, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dalidvd View Post

OK, convergence at last. I do indeed have the Messiah Deutsche Harmonia Mundi disc, of the Messiah conducted by Harnoncourt.

Playing back right now fine in MCH PCM 5.0 88.2 khz.

This is definitely a problem with the Anthem....

Thanks. That's quite reassuring. I have contacted both Pioneer and Anthem but have yet to hear from either of them over the weekend!

However, those same discs play as they should with an Oppo 983 via PCM and HDMI connected to the same D2. I will schlepp out the Integra for a quick test next weekend to see if I can confirm your findings. Of course, another alternative is that my particular sample of the DV58 is, somehow, defective and, of course, the Integra test may tell.

BTW, the SFSO Klagende Lied is not from the same series as the symphony series but was remastered from an earlier (RCA?) recording.

Kal Rubinson

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post #297 of 1057 Old 06-30-2008, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Thanks. That's quite reassuring. I have contacted both Pioneer and Anthem but have yet to hear from either of them over the weekend!

However, those same discs play as they should with an Oppo 983 via PCM and HDMI connected to the same D2. I will schlepp out the Integra for a quick test next weekend to see if I can confirm your findings. Of course, another alternative is that my particular sample of the DV58 is, somehow, defective and, of course, the Integra test may tell.

BTW, the SFSO Klagende Lied is not from the same series as the symphony series but was remastered from an earlier (RCA?) recording.

SFSO Mahler: Das Klagende Lied, isn't that a stereo only recording as well?
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Model - Component Video Processing - Audio DAC


DV-48AV - unknown - PCM1742

DV-58AV - MM1623 - PCM1742

Someone in an earlier post claimed that they both use the PCM1796 for the audio DAC. How good is the 1742? Also, for Component Video, who puts out the MM2316? Thanks.
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post #299 of 1057 Old 07-03-2008, 04:53 PM
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Model - Component Video Processing - Audio DAC


DV-48AV - unknown - PCM1742

DV-58AV - MM1623 - PCM1742

Someone in an earlier post claimed that they both use the PCM1796 for the audio DAC. How good is the 1742? Also, for Component Video, who puts out the MM2316? Thanks.


Hmm, did they switch to a cheaper audio dac in the 58? The 1742 is a cheap dac, much lower quality than the 1796. I wouldn't be surprised because this is the USA where people don't care about such things, if it is pin compatible I can see them pulling a fast one like that, but the European version states 1796 as the DAC number.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/09/26...0p-plays-sacd/

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folder...t/pcm1742.html

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folder...t/pcm1796.html

Only thing that makes me think it still is the 1796 is the stated 118 db signal to noise ratio, that would be impossible with the 1742. Also, no DSD handling in the 1742. I sent an email asking for confirmation to Pioneer.
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post #300 of 1057 Old 07-03-2008, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Hmm, did they switch to a cheaper audio dac in the 58? The 1742 is a cheap dac, much lower quality than the 1796. I wouldn't be surprised because this is the USA where people don't care about such things, if it is pin compatible I can see them pulling a fast one like that, but the European version states 1796 as the DAC number.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/09/26...0p-plays-sacd/

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folder...t/pcm1742.html

http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folder...t/pcm1796.html

Only thing that makes me think it still is the 1796 is the stated 118 db signal to noise ratio, that would be impossible with the 1742. Also, no DSD handling in the 1742. I sent an email asking for confirmation to Pioneer.

Maybe the 1742 is used for PCM, Dolby Digital, and DTS, and the better DACs are used for DSD. I'll have to call Pioneer again, ask for that same tech support representative, and ask him if there is a separate bord for SACD, and if there is, have him look at the DACs. Good idea?
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