Pioneer Elite DV-58AV - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 1057 Old 09-27-2008, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Never happen.
1. SACD direct to analog precludes anything except a volume control and that eliminates all the valuable audio processing in the AVR.
2. The standard today is powered subs, so you will not see an AVR with an amp for the sub. Of course, you could simply add one.

I used to be Big C. I'm the guy who doesn't think he needs bass management. So if all receivers perform DSD-to-PCM conversion, yet I want the tone quality of pure DSD, then maybe I'll stick with my current audio configuration, while using the 58's HDMI for video. Yet what about those receivers that allow you to turn off all time alignment, bass management, and DSP? If they use Burr Brown PCM1791, PCM1792, PCM1796, Cirrus Logic CS4392, CS4397, or CS4398 DACs, when set to PureDirect, Straight, PureAudio, etc., would DSD then be converted straight to analog? Where would I get an amp specificly designed for converting a passive subwoofer into a powered one? Why would the home theater industry agree on powered subs as standard if all the rest of the speakers in a typical system are passive? That last question just gave me an interesting idea. What if every speaker was powered and had its own volume control ... then you can go straight from the 58's output to the speakers. Now that sounds interesting! The following is just kidding around: If you have $3300 or $4400, get yourself three or four Bose Acoustic Wave Music Systems (one for the fronts, one for the surrounds, and either one more for the center and subwoofer, or two separate ones for those)--LOL.
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post #452 of 1057 Old 09-27-2008, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Never happen.
1. SACD direct to analog precludes anything except a volume control and that eliminates all the valuable audio processing in the AVR.

About as valuable as a bank stock
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2. The standard today is powered subs, so you will not see an AVR with an amp for the sub. Of course, you could simply add one.

Powered subwoofers because the subwoofer can use as much power as all the other channels combined and then some, low bass is expensive and needlessly drains headroom from the main speakers.
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post #453 of 1057 Old 09-27-2008, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

I used to be Big C. I'm the guy who doesn't think he needs bass management. So if all receivers perform DSD-to-PCM conversion, yet I want the tone quality of pure DSD, then maybe I'll stick with my current audio configuration, while using the 58's HDMI for video. Yet what about those receivers that allow you to turn off all time alignment, bass management, and DSP? If they use Burr Brown PCM1791, PCM1792, PCM1796, Cirrus Logic CS4392, CS4397, or CS4398 DACs, when set to PureDirect, Straight, PureAudio, etc., would DSD then be converted straight to analog?

I did not say that there were no AVRs that would do this. I simply said that it would, in fact, bypass all those functions that you say you do not want. Now, whether they still do a DSD-PCM conversion anyway, that's for you to research.

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Where would I get an amp specificly designed for converting a passive subwoofer into a powered one?

Any amp will do as long as you have bass management or are using it only for LFE.

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Why would the home theater industry agree on powered subs as standard if all the rest of the speakers in a typical system are passive?

Because the sub requires so much more power than most other speakers.

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That last question just gave me an interesting idea. What if every speaker was powered and had its own volume control ... then you can go straight from the 58's output to the speakers. Now that sounds interesting!

Only if you have some way to control level/balance in concert. Trying to adjust and balance for any resetting of volume without a single control for all is madness.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #454 of 1057 Old 10-09-2008, 10:47 PM
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ValjeanPhantom what do you think of your DV-58 so far?
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post #455 of 1057 Old 10-10-2008, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by 67 - 427 View Post

ValjeanPhantom what do you think of your DV-58 so far?

According to http://www.intl.onkyo.com/downloads/...us_leaflet.pdf, Onkyo is coming out with a new 1080p DVD player (model DV-SP506) with DSD via HDMI and Burr Brown PCM1796 DACs, like in the 58. The thing that turns me away from the 506 is its 50KHz cutoff for SACD playback. And who knows ... Maybe the 58 has the same cutoff, even though it wasn't stated in any of its specs. Also, I'm not sure if the 506's analog section is as good as the 58's. The 506 is available for preorder in the US at Amazon for about $300. Although, the 58 is available from Vanns for about $350. Based on all I said above, I have a feeling the 58 goes that extra mile in performance. Let me know if I'm wrong on this one, but maybe Onkyo was able to obtain similar parts as seen in the 58 at a lower cost, therefore obtaining similar performance for less. If that is true, then we should wait for the 506. If not, then by all means, we should stick with the 58!
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post #456 of 1057 Old 10-11-2008, 12:02 PM
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Good to see there is still interest in these players. I would love to see a replacement to the 58 with PLQS as my 59avi has at a cheaper price. I emailed Chris walker about it but haven't got a responce yet.
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post #457 of 1057 Old 10-15-2008, 05:53 AM
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I haven't been able to find an online manual to the new Onkyo DV-SP506. However, after reading the manuals to the 504 and 706, I notice that the only video manipulation features it has are switchable black level and adjustable sharpness and brightness. Those players do not include adjustments for contrast, tint, color level, and gamma. However, the 58 includes all of the above, except switchable black level, and with the rest of the 58's options it is fairly easy to work around that. So even if the Onkyo DV-SP506 has analog audio as good as the 58, its video options are limited. Therefore, I still say spend the extra $50 and get a 58 from Vanns. It looks like the 58 comes out on top once again. Long live the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV and its thread here at AVS!
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post #458 of 1057 Old 10-15-2008, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

I haven't been able to find an online manual to the new Onkyo DV-SP506. However, after reading the manuals to the 504 and 706, I notice that the only video manipulation features it has are switchable black level and adjustable sharpness and brightness. Those players do not include adjustments for contrast, tint, color level, and gamma. However, the 58 includes all of the above, except switchable black level, and with the rest of the 58's options it is fairly easy to work around that. So even if the Onkyo DV-SP506 has analog audio as good as the 58, its video options are limited. Therefore, I still say spend the extra $50 and get a 58 from Vanns. It looks like the 58 comes out on top once again. Long live the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV and its thread here at AVS!

Vann's has no DV-58AVs they told me 6-8 weeks to get one in when I called a few weeks ago, nice price if they actually had some to sell.
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post #459 of 1057 Old 10-15-2008, 04:10 PM
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You could get one from soundpros for that same price with free shipping
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post #460 of 1057 Old 10-16-2008, 05:54 PM
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I got tired of waiting for Vann's to receive a shipment of the DV58AV and ordered from the Sound Pros. I ordered on Friday and received the following wed. After listening for just a little while last night my initial reaction was that the DV58AV has more clarity and detail from the analog outputs than my previous player had using the digital outputs into my pio 92txh receiver. I'm looking forward to checking out the video performance of this player.
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post #461 of 1057 Old 10-22-2008, 05:18 AM
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Does the 58 use fewer DACs in stereo mode or more DACs for each channel in mono mode? Do the two-channel preouts have their own DACs as well, or are they hotwired to the multi-channel output section for analog stereo downmixing? According to Texas Instruments's website, I understand the 1796 has a switchable 50KHz cutoff filter for SACD playback. In the 58, did Pioneer decide to switch this filter on or off?
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post #462 of 1057 Old 10-22-2008, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

Does the 58 use fewer DACs in stereo mode or more DACs for each channel in mono mode? Do the two-channel preouts have their own DACs as well, or are they hotwired to the multi-channel output section for analog stereo downmixing? According to Texas Instruments's website, I understand the 1796 has a switchable 50KHz cutoff filter for SACD playback. In the 58, did Pioneer decide to switch this filter on or off?

I seriously doubt you could switch between stereo and mono mode that easily with the DACs because of the hardware around them, Yahama just puts an extra DAC in for that purpose so that the front left and right use a DAC each in mono mode whether you use MCH or stereo, DACs are cheap.
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post #463 of 1057 Old 10-22-2008, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

I seriously doubt you could switch between stereo and mono mode that easily with the DACs because of the hardware around them, Yahama just puts an extra DAC in for that purpose so that the front left and right use a DAC each in mono mode whether you use MCH or stereo, DACs are cheap.

Does the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV use a total of six or eight DACs (one in mono mode for each preout), or a total of three or four DACs (one in stereo mode for each pair of preouts)? If you still don't understand, I will think of another way to reword it.
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post #464 of 1057 Old 10-22-2008, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

Does the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV use a total of six or eight DACs (one in mono mode for each preout), or a total of three or four DACs (one in stereo mode for each pair of preouts)? If you still don't understand, I will think of another way to reword it.


Just the 3 two channel dacs. This isn't going to be the weak point in a system, the preamp, amp, speakers, subwoofer will be more important. This player is well into the diminishing returns area where minor improvements that will probably not be audible can be gained at great expense but not otherwise. Most of the media you can play on this unit will not use the dynamic range or S/N capabilities and most rooms will have a much higher noise floor than this player.
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post #465 of 1057 Old 10-22-2008, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Just the 3 two channel dacs. This isn't going to be the weak point in a system, the preamp, amp, speakers, subwoofer will be more important. This player is well into the diminishing returns area where minor improvements that will probably not be audible can be gained at great expense but not otherwise. Most of the media you can play on this unit will not use the dynamic range or S/N capabilities and most rooms will have a much higher noise floor than this player.

Such as the Denon DVD3930CI? Does it use six mono DACs or three two-channel DACs?
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post #466 of 1057 Old 10-22-2008, 08:35 AM
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Three two channel dacs, this is a $500 player, it doesn't have the over the top circuitry of the 3930ci, never mind the 5910ci with the 1792 chips which is not only over the top but well down the next hill of declining increments of value for the money. I seriously doubt you could tell the difference between the three. It is an excellent $500 player that can hold its own with much more expensive ones in the real world. Doubling the number of DACs would buy you 3 db of signal to noise, but then you would have to upgrade the output section to get any benefit plus your preamp etc. etc.
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post #467 of 1057 Old 10-22-2008, 10:17 AM
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Three two channel dacs, this is a $500 player, it doesn't have the over the top circuitry of the 3930ci, never mind the 5910ci with the 1792 chips which is not only over the top but well down the next hill of declining increments of value for the money. I seriously doubt you could tell the difference between the three. It is an excellent $500 player that can hold its own with much more expensive ones in the real world. Doubling the number of DACs would buy you 3 db of signal to noise, but then you would have to upgrade the output section to get any benefit plus your preamp etc. etc.

And the Denon only has HDMI 1.1, as well as Denon Link, in my opinion making it somewhat outdated by todays standards, making it a $1500 waste once we go digital. Out of all the HDMI 1.2A players out there, the Pioneer Elite DV-58AV seems to have the best analog section for those who need a new high-performance DVD player a year or two before they go the HDMI route.
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post #468 of 1057 Old 10-25-2008, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Lasersnuser View Post

A quick question to fellow owners of this player:

When playing SACD and DVDA over HDMI, I notice that I never get to hear the first 2 seconds of a song when starting playback and skipping forwards/backwards between tracks.

Is this normal behavior, or a case of bad communication between the player and receiver (Denon AVR-3808)?

Thanks in advance for any help!

Mitch

I have the same issue, although its not quite a 2 sec delay. More like a half sec. I have my 58 connected to a pio 92txh rec via HDMI. When playing a SACD it appears the signal takes a fraction of a second to be processed through the receiver and the first half second of the song is missed. When I skip back to the beginning it plays the whole song fine.

Another problem I've had is when switching from DVD-A to SACDs I get a significant 'pop' in the speakers when the SACD is recognized. Is this due to the player or the receiver? Is due to it switching from PCM and DSD?

Other than these two problems I love the player. The audio sounds great and I use it for S-DVD playback over my BD 05FD too. The 05 is really slow to read discs and with menus. But these two problems are quite annoying for me! Is there anything that can me done to correct this?
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post #469 of 1057 Old 10-25-2008, 01:45 PM
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I was thinking of getting one of these as a replacement to my 59AVi to go to my SC-05TX. They had one new in the box for clearance at $300, but I missed the sale as it was purchased an hour earlier. I wish they would introduce a newer model, I can't imagine it would retail over $399 and would have PLQS lke my 59AVi had to boot.
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post #470 of 1057 Old 10-25-2008, 06:54 PM
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The Pioneer Canada website no longer lists the DV-58AV. The DV-49AV is the replacement to the 48 and 58. I will be looking at the clearance prices very closely for the 58AV. The best I have found so far is $300. I would think clearance prices should go far below that. Look at the 48AV for 1/3 of MSRP.
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post #471 of 1057 Old 10-26-2008, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post

The Pioneer Canada website no longer lists the DV-58AV. The DV-49AV is the replacement to the 48 and 58. I will be looking at the clearance prices very closely for the 58AV. The best I have found so far is $300. I would think clearance prices should go far below that. Look at the 48AV for 1/3 or MSRP.

Based on Pioneer's pattern, I really thought the 58 was going to be around for another few years. I'm sure its true replacement will be out early next year. If you plan on letting your receiver decode the DSD signals, then the DV-49AV would be a nice choice because of its USB 2.0 for multi-disc style playback, as well as being able to record from CD to USB. However, if you still need a good 5.1 analog preoutput section, the DV-49AV wouldn't be the best solution. Onkyo has a nice one to be released soon, the DV-SP506. Marantz and Denon have some really nice ones, but they are more expensive and don't have HDMI 1.2A or later. The 58 was a nice choice for people like me who needs the best of both worlds--analog and digital--but for those of you with a situation similar to mine, it looks like the best thing for you to do might be to wait until early 2009 and see what the manufacturors come out with then.
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post #472 of 1057 Old 10-26-2008, 10:31 AM
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I would really like to see a replacement to the 58. One with PLQS and the ability to send stereo 192khz signals as my 59AVi did. To boot the MSRP would be in the $300-$400 range. I did email Chris Walker from Pioneer about this but have got nothing back so far.
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post #473 of 1057 Old 10-26-2008, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by PRO-630HD View Post

I would really like to see a replacement to the 58. One with PLQS and the ability to send stereo 192khz signals as my 59AVi did. To boot the MSRP would be in the $300-$400 range. I did email Chris Walker from Pioneer about this but have got nothing back so far.

I am really hoping the 58 was a bridge until they could come out with a sub $1k Blu-ray player that handles SACD.
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post #474 of 1057 Old 10-29-2008, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

I am really hoping the 58 was a bridge until they could come out with a sub $1k Blu-ray player that handles SACD.

I'm very pleased with my Pioneer Elite 58 universal player, but when I get around to again buying a universal player, I'll look at dealer closeouts first (at www.audiogon.com).

The current sweet closeout is a NAD universal from an IL dealer.

Old list of $1200, with current asking of $499.

Such a deal.

Cheers
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post #475 of 1057 Old 10-29-2008, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by habnab View Post

I'm very pleased with my Pioneer Elite 58 universal player, but when I get around to again buying a universal player, I'll look at dealer closeouts first (at www.audiogon.com).

The current sweet closeout is a NAD universal from an IL dealer.

Old list of $1200, with current asking of $499.

Such a deal.

Cheers

Years ago NAD players used to be obsolete Onkyo models with uglier boxes. Caveat Emptor with NAD.
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post #476 of 1057 Old 11-03-2008, 10:19 PM
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ValjeanPhantom, Are you completely satisfied with your Pioneer DV-58AV or would still be looking for something else to improve SQ over the analog MCH outputs? Have you considered/auditioned Arcam DV137/139 or Parasound Halo D3 or other in this league?
I am looking for a high quality SACD player with MCH analog outputs. I would appreciate for your thoughts.
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post #477 of 1057 Old 11-04-2008, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by bordo32 View Post

ValjeanPhantom, Are you completely satisfied with your Pioneer DV-58AV or would still be looking for something else to improve SQ over the analog MCH outputs? Have you considered/auditioned Arcam DV137/139 or Parasound Halo D3 or other in this league?
I am looking for a high quality SACD player with MCH analog outputs. I would appreciate for your thoughts.

I haven't researched the two brands you mentioned. Based on my experience, the 58 is the best thing I've used for analog 5.1.
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post #478 of 1057 Old 11-04-2008, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by ValjeanPhantom View Post

I haven't researched the two brands you mentioned. Based on my experience, the 58 is the best thing I've used for analog 5.1.

Try looking at the reviews of these somewhat esoteric boutique universal players on Secrets of Home Theater and you will find they usually are inferior players with fancy audio output sections, usually they are based on old universal players from companies like Pioneer that build most of the player for them.

The electronics on these things are way too complex for any but the biggest companies to develop and market successfully, even then they use mostly off the shelf components from TI, Cirrus Logic etc.

This player has an output section and audio dacs that are better than almost all preamps and amps can showcase, never mind the speakers. You can get better specs on the 5910ci from Denon for about $3.5k but you will never hear it and it doesn't pass DSD over HDMI.
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post #479 of 1057 Old 11-04-2008, 05:22 PM
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Thanks for your advices.
One more thing to ask.
How about Marantz DV9600 comparing to Pioneer DV58AV ?

The reason for asking that I have found in many places user opinions stating like that:
*CD sound quality of both Arcam 137 & 139 simply blew the Marantz (DV9500) out of the water.
* How bad the CD quality is on the Marantz so I bought an Arcam CD36 to handle the CD duties.
* Sound quality on both Arcams is significantly better (Different Planet) than the Marantz.
And others similar.
And I would imagine that Arcam DV137 should not be a big difference comparing to Pioneer. I am talking here only MCH analog outputs.
Please advice.
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post #480 of 1057 Old 11-05-2008, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by bordo32 View Post

Thanks for your advices.
One more thing to ask.
How about Marantz DV9600 comparing to Pioneer DV58AV ?

The reason for asking that I have found in many places user opinions stating like that:
*CD sound quality of both Arcam 137 & 139 simply blew the Marantz (DV9500) out of the water.
* How bad the CD quality is on the Marantz so I bought an Arcam CD36 to handle the CD duties.
* Sound quality on both Arcams is significantly better (Different Planet) than the Marantz.
And others similar.
And I would imagine that Arcam DV137 should not be a big difference comparing to Pioneer. I am talking here only MCH analog outputs.
Please advice.

These relatively inexpensive last gasp universal DVD players are really quite good, give it a chance. I have the player from 3 generations previous to it, the DV-47ai it is excellent, and they have improved since then. Also, Pioneer makes the transports for a lot of high end players, they make a really good transport. I used to use mine as a transport for CDs until I realized that it had better sound through its analog section than my high end DAC (an MSB Dac). I sold the DAC and simplified my life, and of course the SACD section was great. The Arcam uses a slightly inferior audio DAC on paper, the Wolfson WM8740, versus the PCM-1796 from TI's Burr-Brown brand.

I will bet that in a double blind test it does better than the Arcam, or more likely identical when matched for output level, besides the Arcam will not pass the DSD through so if you ever get a high end controller you are stuck with its analog section.

At this level I would pay more attention to features than the specs (especially bass management if you use a subwoofer), they are all going to sound pretty much perfect. Two years ago you would have had to spend $1500 or more at suggested retail pricing to say that.

The Marantz got panned in audio reviews against the DV-79ai btw, and that doesn't have as good a DAC section as the 58.
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