Pioneer Elite DV-58AV - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 1057 Old 01-09-2008, 04:41 PM
Senior Member
 
AndyGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 463
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Considering that the Pioneer 95 bluray player was trashed for SD playback, I am wondering how this player will differ with SD, particularly what chip. I'd consider this player as a compliment to my 95 if it offered an improvement with SD.
AndyGood is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 1057 Old 01-10-2008, 08:23 AM
Member
 
ohrbrcko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 155
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 17
I am interestd to know how this player differs from its cousin DV-48AV- besides the heavier base. I am on the fence between this, the 48av and the mythical Oppo 983 to be used a 'bridge" player until I transition to Blue Ray or HD. I am not pulling the trigger on a Blue Ray until the format wars show definite signs of coming to an end and there are more affordable choices. Seeing that Marantz has come out with one costing $2K is silly.
ohrbrcko is offline  
post #33 of 1057 Old 01-10-2008, 12:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
swestbom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
What are the bass management options for the DV-58AV?
swestbom is offline  
post #34 of 1057 Old 01-10-2008, 04:38 PM
Senior Member
 
AndyGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 463
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Nobody seems to know anything significant about this player it appears.
AndyGood is offline  
post #35 of 1057 Old 01-10-2008, 04:48 PM
Member
 
Haseeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

What are the bass management options for the DV-58AV?

Looks like Elite DV-58AV is a mystery. There is not much available on it, it is not listed in the Pioneer website, no reviews, no specs...
Haseeb is offline  
post #36 of 1057 Old 01-10-2008, 05:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kevin C Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Is it actually available yet?

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... Something old and something new :-)

Kevin C Brown is offline  
post #37 of 1057 Old 01-10-2008, 05:54 PM
Senior Member
 
AndyGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 463
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Is it actually available yet?

I believe so, ABT electronics and Sound Pros have it "in stock".
AndyGood is offline  
post #38 of 1057 Old 01-10-2008, 08:42 PM
Member
 
bettyfordallstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 18
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Is it actually available yet?

It's available! I can get the unit here in Ontario Canada none of my local dealers have this unit in stock at this time. According the sales rep that briefly called the Pioneer Representative to determine availability, the 58av is almost identical to the DV-78avi unit, (except for the price).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

P.S. the DV-58AV is listed at www.pioneerelectronics.ca

take care,
bettyfordallstar is offline  
post #39 of 1057 Old 01-10-2008, 08:52 PM
Member
 
pisay87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 156
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Is it actually available yet?

I got mine in early December.
pisay87 is offline  
post #40 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 08:19 AM
Member
 
Upgrade's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 48
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Not sure if it will post properly in here, but there is a spec sheet for this player on the Best Buy website:

http://images.bestbuy.com/BestBuy_US...58AV.pdf?h=488

Also not sure how much information it will provide that is not already out there, but it is the only piece of information from Pioneer I have seen on this unit.
Upgrade is offline  
post #41 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 09:46 AM
Advanced Member
 
swestbom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by bettyfordallstar View Post

It's available! I can get the unit here in Ontario Canada none of my local dealers have this unit in stock at this time. According the sales rep that briefly called the Pioneer Representative to determine availability, the 58av is almost identical to the DV-78avi unit, (except for the price).

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

P.S. the DV-58AV is listed at www.pioneerelectronics.ca

take care,

The 58 has better dacs (pcm-1796 versus 1738) and better video, hdmi 1.2 versus 1.1, DSD over HDMI instead of an iLink. The DV-79avi has been discontinued, they are just selling off the inventory (at a steep discount, below the cost of the 58).
swestbom is offline  
post #42 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 09:53 AM
Member
 
Haseeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

The 58 has better dacs (pcm-1796 versus 1738) and better video, hdmi 1.2 versus 1.1, DSD over HDMI instead of an iLink. The DV-79avi has been discontinued, they are just selling off the inventory (at a steep discount, below the cost of the 58).

Does DV-48AV has the same 1796 DACs too? What is the real upgrade from 48 to 58?
Haseeb is offline  
post #43 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 11:23 AM
Advanced Member
 
swestbom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haseeb View Post

Does DV-48AV has the same 1796 DACs too? What is the real upgrade from 48 to 58?

Better output stages for analog audio, probably better video processing too but who knows on that, my main reason for interest in it is the analog audio. With my Pioneer VSX-56TXI and DV-47ai (same dacs as the 79) the DVD player has much better SACD sound than the receiver has using the iLink connection but the video quality is marginal.
swestbom is offline  
post #44 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 01:48 PM
Advanced Member
 
swestbom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Better output stages for analog audio, probably better video processing too but who knows on that, my main reason for interest in it is the analog audio. With my Pioneer VSX-56TXI and DV-47ai (same dacs as the 79) the DVD player has much better SACD sound than the receiver has using the iLink connection but the video quality is marginal.

DV-58av Signal to noise ratio: 118 db, Dynamic Range 108 db
DV-48AV Signal to noise ratio: 115 db, Dynamic Range 100 db

That is the output section upgrade, power supply upgrade, the reason for the 5~ lbs weight for the 48 versus 11~ lbs. weight for the 58. I had to go to the Japanese site for the DV-58 numbers (DV-800AV there)

http://pioneer.jp/press/release600-j.html

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...ctions0706.pdf
swestbom is offline  
post #45 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 02:17 PM
Newbie
 
Donnie 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: IN.
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
ive been trying to find the differences between the dv-58av and the dv-79avi can anyone help me out?

i picked up a new dv-79 in a factory sealed box for what i think was a good price. not sure if i want to open and use it or sell and get the dv-58
Donnie 1 is offline  
post #46 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 03:06 PM
Member
 
Haseeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

DV-58av Signal to noise ratio: 118 db, Dynamic Range 108 db
DV-48AV Signal to noise ratio: 115 db, Dynamic Range 100 db

That is the output section upgrade, power supply upgrade, the reason for the 5~ lbs weight for the 48 versus 11~ lbs. weight for the 58. I had to go to the Japanese site for the DV-58 numbers (DV-800AV there)

http://pioneer.jp/press/release600-j.html

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pi...ctions0706.pdf

This helps and provides much clarity. Thanks.
One more question: If both DV-48AV and DV-58AV can output SACD 5.1 signal over the HDMI connection and your receiver can handle it then why would you use analog 5.1 connections and why would bigger power supply or better DACs make any audio differnce between the two???
Am I missing something assuming video on both is same or pretty close?
Haseeb is offline  
post #47 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 03:35 PM
Advanced Member
 
swestbom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haseeb View Post

This helps and provides much clarity. Thanks.
One more question: If both DV-48AV and DV-58AV can output SACD 5.1 signal over the HDMI connection and your receiver can handle it then why would you use analog 5.1 connections and why would bigger power supply or better DACs make any audio differnce between the two???
Am I missing something assuming video on both is same or pretty close?

As long as the HDMI output stream is buffered and clocked in the player the slightly better transport would be a mute point so probably no difference whatsoever if you use the HDMI DSD feed to the receiver for DAC.

I plan to use the analog output because you have to get up to the $2k plus level in a receiver or controller to get an DAC output stage as good as this DVD player has. For instance the Integra DTC-9.8.
swestbom is offline  
post #48 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 04:08 PM
Member
 
Haseeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

As long as the HDMI output stream is buffered and clocked in the player the slightly better transport would be a mute point so probably no difference whatsoever if you use the HDMI DSD feed to the receiver for DAC.

I plan to use the analog output because you have to get up to the $2k plus level in a receiver or controller to get an DAC output stage as good as this DVD player has. For instance the Integra DTC-9.8.

Thanks again for explaining. Looks like one has to deal with DACs anyway whether in DVD player or receiver. So why not go with the one which has better DACs.

Now can both of these players (48 and 58) play PAL DVDs by converting the signal to NTSC? I have some PAL DVDs and I would like to play them on the player.
Haseeb is offline  
post #49 of 1057 Old 01-11-2008, 08:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KramerTC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Huntersville, NC, US
Posts: 1,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

I plan to use the analog output because you have to get up to the $2k plus level in a receiver or controller to get an DAC output stage as good as this DVD player has. For instance the Integra DTC-9.8.

Bingo. That's the roadmap I set for myself a couple of years ago. I use the analog outputs of my 59avi into an Outllaw 950. It's much cheaper to get a high-end player and use it's analog outputs than replace your pre-pro/receiver if you want the best DACs every two years. The 59avi's analog output sounds better than the 950's processing.
KramerTC is online now  
post #50 of 1057 Old 01-12-2008, 10:24 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Dan Hitchman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Northern Colorado
Posts: 8,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 208 Post(s)
Liked: 258
So, is this Pioneer Elite player built significantly better than, let's say, the Oppo 980H? I have an Oppo 970 and although it's cool for the money, it feels as flimsy as a $40 player in regards to build quality and is starting to make some funny transport noises.

How does it compare to the new Marantz mid level universal player?

Yes, the 980H does do DSD bitstreaming and PCM bitstreaming, but its channel output level adjustment also affects the bitstreamed data (and it's not accurate)... you want the undecoded bitstream to remain untouched if bypassing the player and going straight to an outboard DAC system. That leads me to believe that the Oppo is getting in the way and not sending a pure data signal out if you can adjust the channel trims and bass management, and have it set on HDMI bitstream out. Something doesn't smell right.

Perhaps that's why DSD bitstream output didn't sound as good as using the PCM conversion inside the Oppo.

That's why, besides build quality, I'm interested in the DV-58AV or something similar from Denon, Marantz, Yamaha, or others (that also does DSD 5.1 bitstreaming via HDMI).

Listen up, studios! Just say "NO" to DNR and EE!!
Dan Hitchman is offline  
post #51 of 1057 Old 01-12-2008, 03:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Kevin C Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
I don't have the link at the moment, but there's some belief out there that converting DSD to PCM can improve the sound quality because all the high freq noise that's present in the SACD signal (that some people believe actually makes SACD sound more like analog) is removed.

But it is all "digital" too. So unless you believe that jitter affects sound quality, then I'm not sure there *can* be a difference.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... Something old and something new :-)

Kevin C Brown is offline  
post #52 of 1057 Old 01-12-2008, 08:38 PM
Advanced Member
 
swestbom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

I don't have the link at the moment, but there's some belief out there that converting DSD to PCM can improve the sound quality because all the high freq noise that's present in the SACD signal (that some people believe actually makes SACD sound more like analog) is removed.

But it is all "digital" too. So unless you believe that jitter affects sound quality, then I'm not sure there *can* be a difference.

I am not sure what you are saying, what post were you referring to? My Pioneer receiver does DSD to PCM conversion for DSP when I use the iLink and any DSP setting, it sounds pretty bad, why add the extra chance to screw things up?

You cannot recover information that isn't there in a conversion from DSD to PCM. DSD does have a bad signal to noise ratio as you get up above the dog whistle territory but who really cares? There isn't anything in the source material to be concerned with and the high order harmonics are inaudible anyway. It sounds far more natural below that point than DVD-Audio at 24/96 does with my DV-47ai, the PCM is strident sounding in comparison, artificially edgy. DSD has some theoretical issues tracking square waves but it isn't a real issue with music and with the sampling frequency it uses it wouldn't be audible anyway, not that I want to listen to that.

In short DSD works really quite well for acoustic music, probably partly because there is no temptation to "improve" the mix. It sucks for pop music because you have to convert everything to PCM to trash it in the mixing software anyway assuming there was anything analog in the source material to begin with.
swestbom is offline  
post #53 of 1057 Old 01-13-2008, 12:28 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kevin C Brown's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,427
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:


Perhaps that's why DSD bitstream output didn't sound as good as using the PCM conversion inside the Oppo.

This is what I was referring too.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... Something old and something new :-)

Kevin C Brown is offline  
post #54 of 1057 Old 01-14-2008, 04:42 PM
Newbie
 
cleanguy1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Edmonton,Alta
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindamood View Post

Haven't seen much on this one yet, except a picture on the 'Secrets' coverage of CEDIA 2007, as well as pre-order listings on a couple of online vendor sites. What's interesting about this player is that is upscales to 1080p, and is able to pass multi-channel DVD-A and SACD via HDMI (1.2a). Since support for iLink seems to be dwindling, this will be a nice alternative for those who want to send high-res music digitally to their processor/receiver.

CEDIA Pictures on Secrets

(Sorry, tried to post link to spec sheet, but could not link to online retailer site. A quick search will turn it up.)

What is the differnece between the pioneer DV58A & the pioneer BDP-95FD, I just bought the new BDP-95FD now I see you have the other unit, which unit better overall?
cleanguy1 is offline  
post #55 of 1057 Old 01-14-2008, 05:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
swestbom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleanguy1 View Post

What is the differnece between the pioneer DV58A & the pioneer BDP-95FD, I just bought the new BDP-95FD now I see you have the other unit, which unit better overall?

The blu-ray player cannot handle DVD-Audio or SACD the 58 can. Why sell one player when you can sell two. No one makes a blu-ray player that supports SACD and DVD-Audio except the ps-3 for SACD's DSD format converted to PCM. Also some early Panasonic units supported the (almost) dead DVD-Audio format.

If you were wondering, DVD-Audio is confined to pop music because it can be mixed with PCM based software, SACD is mostly Classical and other acoustic music (jazz for the most part) because you cannot really play with it in the digital domain very much.
swestbom is offline  
post #56 of 1057 Old 01-15-2008, 02:01 PM
Newbie
 
Donnie 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: IN.
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie 1 View Post

ive been trying to find the differences between the dv-58av and the dv-79avi can anyone help me out?

i picked up a new dv-79 in a factory sealed box for what i think was a good price. not sure if i want to open and use it or sell and get the dv-58

O.K. lets ask this a different way, which one of these is better?
Donnie 1 is offline  
post #57 of 1057 Old 01-15-2008, 02:55 PM
Senior Member
 
mrkeeling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 49°15'56"N/123°8'4"W
Posts: 350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
To be more specific (at least that is what interests me) which of the two (Elite DV-79Avi and Elite DV-58AV) performs better in ANALOG 5.1 audio performance - especially with Hi-Res discs (DVD-a and SACD).

There was the mention somewhere in this thread that 58AV is superior in that department (ANALOG 5.1 audio out) and I wander if anybody actually compared them side by side.

I share the same philosophy as a few other members in this thread in liking my player to do all the work - keeps the upgrading much simpler and more cost effective. It is definitely time to replace my aged DV-45a.

mrkeeling is offline  
post #58 of 1057 Old 01-15-2008, 03:10 PM
Senior Member
 
mrkeeling's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: 49°15'56"N/123°8'4"W
Posts: 350
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie 1 View Post

O.K. lets ask this a different way, which one of these is better?

It very much depends on your needs.
In video department 58 probably outperforms 79 as it does 1080p upconversion, but if you are after 480i feeding some kind of video processor - that might be insignificant.
In audio department 58 has newer DAC's, but newer doesn't necessarily means better.
Overall 58 is more up to date player. But it is also full 7 lbs. lighter, which may indicate less built quality, smaller power supply and who knows what else. All that of course doesn't mean that it can not perform better.

On top of that I have absolutely no experience with either one.

mrkeeling is offline  
post #59 of 1057 Old 01-15-2008, 06:20 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KramerTC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Huntersville, NC, US
Posts: 1,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie 1 View Post

O.K. lets ask this a different way, which one of these is better?

I've had the 59avi for a couple of years. No direct experience with the 79 you just bought but the consensus was (and still is) that the 79 was better than the 59 in analog audio output quality. The video? This is where it gets interesting...everybody that bought the 79 was gushing about this player and then Secrets (www.hometheaterhifi.com) did a review and found a flaw in the video processing. Bam! 180 degree turn-around in people's perception of this player. If you want to see what I'm talking about find the review at Secrets then go find the posts in the 79 owners thread around the time the review was published. Look at the before and after. Bunch of sheep!

There are no direct comparisons between the 58 and the 79 because the 58 is so new. But you can check the Denon 2930 owner's thread and get an idea of the capabilities of the DACs since that player uses the same chip for internal audio. There's a lot more that contributes to the quality of the sound output but at least you have a starting point over there for reference.
KramerTC is online now  
post #60 of 1057 Old 01-16-2008, 08:15 AM
Member
 
steck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Donnie 1 View Post

ive been trying to find the differences between the dv-58av and the dv-79avi can anyone help me out?

i picked up a new dv-79 in a factory sealed box for what i think was a good price. not sure if i want to open and use it or sell and get the dv-58


keep the DV-79. especially if you got it for a cheap price - as i assume you did. the thing is a tank.

i bought the DV58 cause it was cheaper...but i did notice the weight difference between the two. if they would have been the same price, i woulda bought the 79.

as far as the 58 goes, its better than the $200 toshiba it replaced !! (although the SD-3800 was a definite over achiever)

i noticed the video to be alot brighter (the whites are so bright) on my (already non-state of the art) 1080i 52" RPLCD.

it looks nice in my rack - as opposed to an el-cheapo plastic POS.

it gets pretty technical around here, and i'll stay out of that talk, but i'm generally happy with my 1st pioneer product i've ever owned.

i find it hard to believe the AV48 is as good as the AV58 (on paper) but having said that, realistically, i doubt i'd see or hear a difference between the two!! but i'm not a big fan of slim players...they look so insubstantial and cheap.
steck is offline  
Reply DVD Players (Standard Def)

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off