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post #3691 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SkOrPn View Post

My brother has more than twice the connection that I have and he cant get Netflix to go above 240p on a Wired connection using Netflix on his new Smart TV or his XBOX One. I on the other hand have less than half of his connection and live 25 miles from the City limits way out in the Country and can maintain 5800 kbps on 4 devices. I just do not know how things like this can ever be explained. He lives just a few miles from his ISP in the middle of the City and has a 105 mbps Comcast connection, and I need to pack a lunch and thermos to visit mine, crappy ISP CenturyLink no less, and can get 47 Mbps downloads on a 40/5 connection.

However, my brother can maintain 5800 kbps on his Smart Phone, and he can even tether to the TV at that rate... Go figure, super fast wired connection and yet his freggin 4G wireless phone streams perfectly...

Again - and I know I am a broken record - which CDN are each of you connecting to?
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post #3692 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Again - and I know I am a broken record - which CDN are each of you connecting to?

How would I go about determining our CDN? We are only 40 miles apart so why wouldn't we be connecting to the same one? On Wednesday I will go over to his house and install a different router and mess around with his setup. He actually works as a Comcast install tech for a living (contracted not directly employed by) and he is disgusted by how different the connections are within the same area. He uses the default settings on the default router Comcast provides though and I'm going to do away with that and make a few changes. It would be nice if I could determine the cdn he is using. Thanks

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post #3693 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post


I am sure I am not the only Comcast customer getting Super HD encodes smile.gif

comfynumb if you read the Apple TV Discussion forums (discussions.apple.com) on the 6 week Apple TV Netflix issues there were many getting Super HD on Comcast on other devices (Roku's, Chromecasts etc) during this period and many of whom (but not all) are now getting Super HD again on their Apple TVs.

As I have said before the people seeing issues with Apple TVs were being connected to Netflix Streaming Services CDN. My other devices were connecting to Limelight (as was my Apple TV after the 'fix').

That is why I was asking if the people seeing problems with non-Open Connect ISPs could report which CDN they were connecting to. At least one AVS member on a non-Open Connect ISP reported some success in the Apple TV discussion forums by blocking access to the Netflix Streaming Services (in his router) forcing his device to connect to another CDN



Again thanks for putting up with my beginner questions. So instead of connecting to Netflix ATV was connecting to a different site? Hopefully this is fixed now.
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post #3694 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Here I think Susan Crawford's comments are particularly relevant “the United States now has neither a competitive market for high-speed wired internet access nor government oversight.”


So true. A prime example of Net neutrality violation was displayed when CBS was able to black out their free online streaming service to TWC customers during their carrier dispute.




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post #3695 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I've heard tons of complaints from you and other TWC subs. You seem to be happy now that you have the new Netflix player on Roku 3.

Like I have a choice. FiOS is not even available and DSL is practically dead in my area.

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post #3696 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 11:34 AM
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Here I think Susan Crawford's comments are particularly relevant “the United States now has neither a competitive market for high-speed wired internet access nor government oversight.”
Indeed, and yet a publication such as the NYT completely misses that point.

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It takes commenters to the article such as mobocracy to explain why broadband is in such a sad state in this country,
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Is it really that much of a puzzle? Internet service is typically at best a duopoly, with a wireline phone carrier selling DSL over their old copper phone lines and the local cable TV provider offering it over their cable lines. In many cases it's an outright monopoly.

DSL is speed limited by the nature of its infrastructure which makes it barely competitive in good areas and non-competitive to unavailable in other areas. This keeps the speeds the cable provider offers lower, reducing the competitive incentive of cable providers to sell higher speeds.

Many cable providers will provide higher priced speed tiers, but these are borderline deceptive because the speed limits are purely local between your cable modem and the neighborhood trunking point. Lack of competition reduces their incentive to upgrade their distribution network to actually deliver end-end throughput at the higher speed tiers. People I know who buy 50Mbit service only really get it at 4:30 AM for an hour, once the entire neighborhood gets active their real throughput drops to half.

The only solution is more competition. Without it you will get textbook rent-seeking by monopolists who will charge the maximum price for the minimum service.

(underlining by me)
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post #3697 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 11:40 AM
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Let us also not forget that school is out! And what do kids do when school is out? Many of them stream Netflix. Add that to the folks who now have Netflix for the first time and we can look forward to a lot of chatter and corporate vollies between the telecoms and Netflix come next month.

I was watching the (hiddenly Asylum) junk movie "Alien Origin" last night and though listed as HD (no 5.1 though) hard to tell whether it was the Go camera footage or network congestion for some of the messy scenes. Netflix did stop briefly and rebuffer once. This was on the Chromecast where I think they are using HTML5 and WebM for most of the enodes. BTW, one can specify the GOP for those encodes and at 120 for 24 fps that would be 5 seconds so resolution can run a gamut quite quickly. The movie BTW was shot in Beliz and interesting from that aspect and I also kinda enjoy watching these "found footage" movies.

Problem with much of the discussion here is no one knows for sure what is happening and those that do can't say anything due to NDA clauses in their employment contract. Very few IT people have experience with dealing with a content distribution center and those that do probably have no problem with employment. And if we were graced from a Netflix rep their comments would be heavily parsed by their PR department before released.
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post #3698 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post


I am sure I am not the only Comcast customer getting Super HD encodes smile.gif
I used to get them fairly reliably myself when they first opened them up to Comcast subs, it's only been recently that I've been having problems. Coincidentally it's roughly since I installed a new router(Asus RT-N66W) although I haven't seen any indication that it's causing the problem as I get max throughput from other sources, often maxing out the 50-55mb/s pipe.

Before I make any changes such as swapping routers or ISPs I'm going to wait until the holiday season is over and everyone settles down a bit from using their shiny new Netflix service. It is very disappointing though to watch a Netflix original like Lillyhammer and have to deal with slow rampups and various bitrate changes while watching it.
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post #3699 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

Let us also not forget that school is out! And what do kids do when school is out? Many of them stream Netflix. Add that to the folks who now have Netflix for the first time and we can look forward to a lot of chatter and corporate vollies between the telecoms and Netflix come next month.

I was watching the (hiddenly Asylum) junk movie "Alien Origin" last night and though listed as HD (no 5.1 though) hard to tell whether it was the Go camera footage or network congestion for some of the messy scenes. Netflix did stop briefly and rebuffer once. This was on the Chromecast where I think they are using HTML5 and WebM for most of the enodes. BTW, one can specify the GOP for those encodes and at 120 for 24 fps that would be 5 seconds so resolution can run a gamut quite quickly. The movie BTW was shot in Beliz and interesting from that aspect and I also kinda enjoy watching these "found footage" movies.

Problem with much of the discussion here is no one knows for sure what is happening and those that do can't say anything due to NDA clauses in their employment contract. Very few IT people have experience with dealing with a content distribution center and those that do probably have no problem with employment. And if we were graced from a Netflix rep their comments would be heavily parsed by their PR department before released.
I think, as has been noted by others previously in this thread and elsewhere, the problem is congestion. Not the local congestion in say your local node, but where the Netflix feeds hit the ISP edge, not enough ports(?) designated to handle the traffic. I don't believe the problem is last mile, but just getting into the ISP's network itself.



Just tried the "short" on the Roku 3 and within seconds it's streaming at 5800 kb/s, guess I should do my Netflix watching during the day! biggrin.gif
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post #3700 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 12:26 PM
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I stream Netflix over my 3 Apple TV's, my iMac, iPad, iPhone, Toshiba Blu-Ray Player, Oppo Blu-Ray Player, and PC (laptop)....Since the end of November Netflix streaming has been horrible to say the least. 2 weeks ago, the Apple TV's (two second gen and one 3rd gen) have been streaming at 5800 kbps for full HD, while all other sources have been streaming at 235 kbps...absolutely unacceptable. Originally I thought it was an issue with Apple TV (as pointed out on other forums) or a problem with Comcast as my ISP. I get 30 Mbps download speed and 5 Mbps upload...so the problem is not my ISP....this is truly a Netflix problem being that it is across so many different devices. I'm not sure what Apple was able to update on the Apple TV's, but it works perfectly when streaming Netflix. I'm a couple days away from just dropping Netflix and staying with Amazon Instant Video or Hulu +, which all stream in HD. (As does Apple iTunes movie purchases, HBOGO, etc..) Really frustrated with Netflix....this only started happening in November, so they changed something with streaming services then.
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post #3701 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Coincidentally it's roughly since I installed a new router(Asus RT-N66W) although I haven't seen any indication that it's causing the problem as I get max throughput from other sources, often maxing out the 50-55mb/s pipe.

I am using a Asus RT-N66U (not sure of the difference between U and W) - but as you say the router is probably not the issue.
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post #3702 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Again - and I know I am a broken record - which CDN are each of you connecting to?

Back when I was playing around with observing that stuff I never noticed any consistency on a per device basis as to what CDNs they end up using. Often it would begin by creating connections to more than one CDN and streaming video from some combination of them before settling down to one or two connections. I could see that pretty clearly on the PC using Resource Monitor. Of course, these days I seem to only get connected to servers in Netflix domains, at least on PC (I can't check other devices with my current router firmware).

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post #3703 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by SkOrPn View Post

How would I go about determining our CDN? We are only 40 miles apart so why wouldn't we be connecting to the same one? On Wednesday I will go over to his house and install a different router and mess around with his setup. He actually works as a Comcast install tech for a living (contracted not directly employed by) and he is disgusted by how different the connections are within the same area. He uses the default settings on the default router Comcast provides though and I'm going to do away with that and make a few changes. It would be nice if I could determine the cdn he is using. Thanks

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

michaeltscott posted how to do this from windows machine here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1089285/netflix-streaming-quality/3630#post_24126792

If you using other devices you may be able to check which servers your devices are connecting to in your router.

On my router in System Log there is a Tab for Connections. Here I can see a list showing local IP address, destination IP address and status. I know the local IP of my Apple TV (Chromecast etc) so I can see what server they are connecting to.

Other routers (if they can show a list of connections) undoubtedly will have different interfaces.

When I start playing Netflix from a device I can see it initiate a number of different connections - from my Apple TV it normally connects to Apple, Amazon and a CDN. The CDN seems to be consistently Limelight for the last couple of weeks (since the apparent Apple TV fix)

I need to use http://www.dslreports.com/whois to determine who the destination addresses are.
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post #3704 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Back when I was playing around with observing that stuff I never noticed any consistency on a per device basis as to what CDNs they end up using. Often it would begin by creating connections to more than one CDN and streaming video from some combination of them before settling down to one or two connections. I could see that pretty clearly on the PC using Resource Monitor. Of course, these days I seem to only get connected to servers in Netflix domains, at least on PC (I can't check other devices with my current router firmware).

My Apple TV seems to be very consistent. For 6 weeks from early November it always connected to Netflix Streaming services and never got above 1750 kbps (often much less).

For the last two weeks it always connects to Limelight and consistently gets 5800 kbps Super HD.

When the Apple TV was having issues if I used Airplay with an iPad it always connected to Limelight and got 4300 kbps (seems to be the limit of Airplay). With Airplay the iPad is only a remote with Netflix stream going directly to the Apple TV.

I haven't really spent any time looking at my other devices (Chromecast, Rokus etc) as they haven't had any problems with Netflix.

It is possible the Apple TV streams are handled differently to other devices - remember it is the only device with DD not DD+ 5.1 audio.
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post #3705 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 01:19 PM
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Yeah--I've never had an ATV to test so it may be that it has affinity for certain CDNs (there so very little that it does that I would use it for that I've never been interested in owning one, plus I hate Apple passionately biggrin.gif).

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post #3706 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

michaeltscott posted how to do this from windows machine here http://www.avsforum.com/t/1089285/netflix-streaming-quality/3630#post_24126792

If you using other devices you may be able to check which servers your devices are connecting to in your router.

On my router in System Log there is a Tab for Connections. Here I can see a list showing local IP address, destination IP address and status. I know the local IP of my Apple TV (Chromecast etc) so I can see what server they are connecting to.

Other routers (if they can show a list of connections) undoubtedly will have different interfaces.

When I start playing Netflix from a device I can see it initiate a number of different connections - from my Apple TV it normally connects to Apple, Amazon and a CDN. The CDN seems to be consistently Limelight for the last couple of weeks (since the apparent Apple TV fix)

I need to use http://www.dslreports.com/whois to determine who the destination addresses are.
Ok much appreciated bud. Maybe I can help him figure out what is happening. He does not want to complain to Comcast because of his work with them, but he has done everything he can in the way of new cabling, new comcast router, new connections on the ends of every cable etc. I think he even replaced the 30 year old coax coming from the Pole in his backyard. As far as he can tell his connection is as good as its going to get physically with the tools and training he has available to him. However, he is no Network admin by a long shot and probably is unaware of simple things like trying different DNS servers, etc.

Anyway, I have a old DIR-655 and a Motorola modem that worked great for streaming from Netflix when I lived in the City, so I will give him those just to see if it does anything different for him. I looked up his router at SmallNetBuilder and it is so far down the list of reliable connections that it makes no sense for me not to try this DIR-655 which has great throughput.
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post #3707 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I think, as has been noted by others previously in this thread and elsewhere, the problem is congestion. Not the local congestion in say your local node, but where the Netflix feeds hit the ISP edge, not enough ports(?) designated to handle the traffic. I don't believe the problem is last mile, but just getting into the ISP's network itself.


I agree. That being said, we can talk about these streaming issues until the cows come home biggrin.gif but unless an ISP is willing to offer Open Connect, due to financial considerations, there will not be any other solutions that Netflix will accept.


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post #3708 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Again - and I know I am a broken record - which CDN are each of you connecting to?

At the risk of double posting I posed these questions for you.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1278071/apple-tv-owners-thread/2700#post_24137560
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post #3709 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 02:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I think, as has been noted by others previously in this thread and elsewhere, the problem is congestion. Not the local congestion in say your local node, but where the Netflix feeds hit the ISP edge, not enough ports(?) designated to handle the traffic. I don't believe the problem is last mile, but just getting into the ISP's network itself.

Which I think is consistent with the Apple TV issue many saw.

It seems like many Apple TVs started connecting to Netflix Streaming Services early November and a lot of people started reporting Apple TV Netflix problems across a number of different non-Open Connect ISPs.

Mid-December many of these Apple TVs started connecting to Limelight and the issues went away for most.

My suspicion is there was a congestion between the Netflix Streaming Service CDN and the non-Open Connect ISPs.

Now the Apple TVs are using Limelight again there seems to be enough bandwidth between Limelight and the non-Open Connect ISPs.
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post #3710 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 02:25 PM
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I am using a Asus RT-N66U (not sure of the difference between U and W) - but as you say the router is probably not the issue.
Color, the U is black in color and the W is white. As far as I know, they are otherwise identical. The white version happened to be on an Amazon daily deal for $109 so I grabbed it.
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post #3711 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 02:27 PM
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I agree. That being said, we can talk about these streaming issues until the cows come home biggrin.gif but unless an ISP is willing to offer Open Connect, due to financial considerations, there will not be any other solutions that Netflix will accept.


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Easy to say when your ISP supports Open Connect. Open Connect is a stupid excuse for a fix when the big 5 ISP's refuse to even use it. What Netflix needs to do is lease or create more server farms to handle the increased traffic.
What I forgot to say was last night while watching Bones and Chuck on my Roku 3 around 30 minutes into it dropped down to SD (480p Not that low def 240p crap) but did ramp up within a minute. It is annoying at best but there is nothing I can do about it but the Roku 3 is still the most reliable of the streaming devices as even the PS3 is not the beast of a streamer it use to be and the ATV belongs in the trash with trash PQ.

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Color, the U is black in color and the W is white. As far as I know, they are otherwise identical. The white version happened to be on an Amazon daily deal for $109 so I grabbed it.
Me too that is why I got the white version off of Amazon but I think they do use different firmware's as I could not install Merlin firmware on it and could not find crap on Bing or Google about the white version supporting it.

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post #3713 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 02:51 PM
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Me too that is why I got the white version off of Amazon but I think they do use different firmware's as I could not install Merlin firmware on it and could not find crap on Bing or Google about the white version supporting it.
The white model runs the Merlin builds just fine. Try asking in the Asuswrt-Merlin forum. I'm running the latest beta build right now and it loads and works fine.
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post #3714 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 06:18 PM
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Easy to say when your ISP supports Open Connect. Open Connect is a stupid excuse for a fix when the big 5 ISP's refuse to even use it. What Netflix needs to do is lease or create more server farms to handle the increased traffic.

Owning your own content distribution service is not a stupid idea. Youtube owns their own CDN-along with using independent firms, and they don't seem to have to kinds of issues plaguing Netflix subscribers. And the big ISPs don't have issues handing their traffic. But then, Youtube is free (with some paid content offerings), and thus, isn't as threatening to the cable overlords as a pay service that features long form movies and tv shows, rather than a bunch of hi def LOL Cat vids and other home made wacky stuff.


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post #3715 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 06:30 PM
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The problem is not enough data centers, I think the problem is access, and until that is resolved it doesn't matter how big and efficient you are on the outside, it's the getting in that matters, getting a big enough door to supply all that data through, data that the offending ISP doesn't want for competitive reasons in the first place.
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post #3716 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 07:51 PM
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Decided to try the PS3 tonight and I was wrong it is still a great streamer for Netflix. It sometimes starts out bad but does ramp up within a minute like the Roku 3.

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post #3717 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

The problem is not enough data centers, I think the problem is access, and until that is resolved it doesn't matter how big and efficient you are on the outside, it's the getting in that matters, getting a big enough door to supply all that data through, data that the offending ISP doesn't want for competitive reasons in the first place.

Precisely. Netflix can't get enough bandwidth into the ISPs networks to satisfy demand and that's on the ISPs. Open Connect access is one way to widen that door (or, to strain the metaphor, to give Netflix its own entrance), but there's not much else that Netflix can do. The ISPs could improve the situation but the gigantic ones have little incentive to do anything to enhance Netflix's service.
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post #3718 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Precisely. Netflix can't get enough bandwidth into the ISPs networks to satisfy demand and that's on the ISPs. Open Connect access is one way to widen that door (or, to strain the metaphor, to give Netflix its own entrance), but there's not much else that Netflix can do. The ISPs could improve the situation but the gigantic ones have little incentive to do anything to enhance Netflix's service.

Can't get or won't pay for?

As I said above my Apple TV would never get Super HD for 6 weeks when using Netflix Streaming Services CDN (which I suspect saved Netflix $)

Now my Apple TV is connecting to Limelight (probably costing Netflix more $) I have absolutely no problem getting Super HD on the Apple TV any time of day.

My other devices (probably not connecting to Netflix Streaming Services CDN) are getting Netflix Super HD reliably.

Netflix decided to open Super HD to all (which I am very happy about) which definitely increased the needed bandwidth between Netflix and the non Open Connect ISP's. Presumably they felt that they had a plan to provide the necessary bandwidth.

I know we are getting on contentious ground here - so I post this with a little trepidation.

Edited - I meant to say 'which definitely increased the needed bandwidth between Netflix and the non Open Connect ISP's.' Corrected above
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post #3719 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post


Netflix can't get enough bandwidth into the ISPs networks to satisfy demand and that's on the ISPs. Open Connect access is one way to widen that door (or, to strain the metaphor, to give Netflix its own entrance), but there's not much else that Netflix can do. The ISPs could improve the situation but the gigantic ones have little incentive to do anything to enhance Netflix's service.

 

I think the bandwidth issue evolves strictly around Netflix and the ISPs have very little impact. I doubt Netflix is flooding ISPs at their Internet access points. Rather Netflix can't handle the bandwidth required of their network (regardless of where it resides). Either the actual servers or allocated/configured bandwidth can't handle the load.

 

If the ISPs were getting slammed at their Internet access points all traffic would be impacted not just Netflix's. Of course they would prefer help in expanding via Open Connect and to a large degree if they were flooding the Internet pipe (connection points) it would be a strong reason for the ISPs to be interested in Open Connect.

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post #3720 of 5836 Old 12-30-2013, 09:06 PM
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I don't understand with non Open Connect ISP's how different devices give different results. For me only the Roku 3 and PS3 stream Netflix reliable during peak hours.

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