Netflix streaming quality - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 02:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Karmyna View Post

And again you can't reply to a post without insulting and bringing down people. If you don't stop that I'll be force to report you.

And no it isn't a red herring but a fact. Without it they, and you, can't prove that streaming is really what is bringing in the money. They don't say how many people have an empty queue and stream only. So in the end, growth is nothing without the revenue, which is still linked to the physical media only.

Feel free to report away.

The fact is that businesses routinely change their services to make them more attractive in the market. When a change results in massive growth, they understand that the change is what is driving the growth.

In Netflix's case it is even simpler to grasp since they can capture where new subscribers are coming from and have already stated that the attach rate from 360s and Netflix enabled Blu-ray players is very strong. Indeed, the conversion from Netflix enabled Blu-ray players is particularly strong.

Me clarifying this is only an insult if you believe you demonstrating your misunderstanding of Netflix's business should not be countered. Alternatively you could choose to study their business and be aware of what has driven their growth as acknowledged by analysts and company executives.
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post #362 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 02:48 PM
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I have a 50" Pioneer and I sit 8' back. It looks pretty close to HD Cable (and my comcast looks great).

Then again, it depends on the source.
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post #363 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 02:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Karmyna View Post

That was mine, not the guy you were replying to.

BTW what is the size of your TV and how far are you from it?

I know it was yours, and it is a prime example of hyperbole.

My current setup is a 36" 1080p HDTV that I sit about 6 feet from.
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post #364 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by PSound View Post

Patently incorrect.

My statements are correct. Please show us, using Netflix 2009 finical statements, where they claim to make a profit from streaming. There is no doubt that Netflix believes that can turn streaming into a profit center otherwise they would not have invested money into it.

Netflix has and is doing major advertising campaigns. If you know anything about national spots then you should know the effects this can have on ones business. They have projected a 18-20% increase in disc shipments during 2010. Just the closure of some Hollywood and Blockbuster stores should be a great benefit to Netflix.

Folks needs to remember that Netflix started out to be a streaming service but recognized they were ahead of their time. We will all know when Netflix believes the time is right for streaming to be a profit center because they will charge additional for streaming or offer a streaming only option.
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post #365 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by PSound View Post

In Netflix's case it is even simpler to grasp since they can capture where new subscribers are coming from and have already stated that the attach rate from 360s and Netflix enabled Blu-ray players is very strong. Indeed, the conversion from Netflix enabled Blu-ray players is particularly strong.

I would tend to agree.. I think what I interpret you saying is "Netflix streaming is a money making segment, even discounting the rental of the physical media." I would also add that it seems to me that Netflix, if broadband and enabled players continue to become more and more commonplace, could actually stop the physical mailing of disks and simply stream all content for a monthly subscription. Especially if they could get the rights to stream new release content.

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post #366 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:22 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

My statements are correct. Please show us, using Netflix 2009 finical statements, where they claim to make a profit from streaming.

Netflix starts out by stating their primary business is movies streamed over the internet and DVDs-by-mail. They then discuss their historic growth due to the streaming aspect of the hybrid service. Almost their entire earnings call and year end reports are focused on that topic.

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Netflix has and is doing major advertising campaigns. If you know anything about national spots then you should know the effects this can have on ones business.

Netflix's acquisition costs have been going DOWN, and they attribute that to (take a second and make a guess...) streaming.

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They have projected a 18-20% increase in disc shipments during 2010. Just the closure of some Hollywood and Blockbuster stores should be a great benefit to Netflix.

They have an 18-20% projected increase in disc shipments, and a 30% projected increase in subscribers. What reason does Netflix give for their subscribers growing faster than their disc shipment rates? Streaming.

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Folks needs to remember that Netflix started out to be a streaming service but recognized they were ahead of their time. We will all know when Netflix believes the time is right for streaming to be a profit center because they will charge additional for streaming or offer a streaming only option.

No one was ready for streaming as a commercial service at the time. If for no other reason than the studios were very happy with the money they were making from DVD sales. Technology and the market has changed.

As far as the idea of a streaming only service, the simple business question is "why?"

Their model works. They have NOTHING to prove regarding streaming.

Their business model has no need to change until their growth curve slows. Right now they are reaping the benefits of investing in a service that has resonated extremely well with their customers.
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post #367 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I would tend to agree.. I think what I interpret you saying is "Netflix streaming is a money making segment, even discounting the rental of the physical media." I would also add that it seems to me that Netflix, if broadband and enabled players continue to become more and more commonplace, could actually stop the physical mailing of disks and simply stream all content for a monthly subscription. Especially if they could get the rights to stream new release content.

at that point, how would PPV compete? If new releases were on streaming, there would be no point in PPV and it would die.
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post #368 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by PSound View Post

They have an 18-20% projected increase in disc shipments, and a 30% projected increase in subscribers. What reason does Netflix give for their subscribers growing faster than their disc shipment rates? Streaming.

throttling.
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post #369 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:27 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

I would tend to agree.. I think what I interpret you saying is "Netflix streaming is a money making segment, even discounting the rental of the physical media." I would also add that it seems to me that Netflix, if broadband and enabled players continue to become more and more commonplace, could actually stop the physical mailing of disks and simply stream all content for a monthly subscription. Especially if they could get the rights to stream new release content.

I actually think their model of physical media and streaming is fine. They have shown that it is successful in the marketplace, and with investors.

What I am saying is that Netflix knows their business and can trace their growth right back to the streaming "rocketship".

It amazes me that there is even a conversation on that topic. I have not seen one analyst commentary that disputes the fact that streaming is their growth engine.
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post #370 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by b_scott View Post

throttling.

ROFL!

Well, assuming their throttling remains constant then new subscribers should still have a direct impact on disc shipments unless they follow the demo of the new customers who are using streaming at a higher rate than legacy customers. Although Netflix does state that even existing customers are adopting streaming and getting closer to the rate of new customers.
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post #371 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by b_scott View Post

at that point, how would PPV compete? If new releases were on streaming, there would be no point in PPV and it would die.

Well, a lot of technology has died over the years when something newer and more convienient comes along. I really do believe streaming is the future. As one generation passes on, and new generations of folks these days are more and more willing and able to adopt the technology, what seemed best a few years ago suddenly seems outdated.

Downloads have already just about killed the CD market.

Much of this is really a discussion on the path our culture is on. We want it now. We want it as cheap as possible. We want it with the minimum of hassle.

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post #372 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Well, a lot of technology has died over the years when something newer and more convienient comes along. I really do believe streaming is the future. As one generation passes on, and new generations of folks these days are more and more willing and able to adopt the technology, what seemed best a few years ago suddenly seems outdated.

Downloads have already just about killed the CD market.

Much of this is really a discussion on the path our culture is on. We want it now. We want it as cheap as possible. We want it with the minimum of hassle.

And quality moves even further down that list, I'm not sure it would even be in the top 5 "wants" nowadays.
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post #373 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Well, a lot of technology has died over the years when something newer and more convienient comes along. I really do believe streaming is the future. As one generation passes on, and new generations of folks these days are more and more willing and able to adopt the technology, what seemed best a few years ago suddenly seems outdated.

Downloads have already just about killed the CD market.

Much of this is really a discussion on the path our culture is on. We want it now. We want it as cheap as possible. We want it with the minimum of hassle.

My personal view is that the Netflix model is going to continue to grow and be the most successful streaming option for consumers, until....

The studios get serious and build a comprehensive model that allows people to purchase movies over the internet and have access to them over multiple devices and integrate a federated management system that provides true mobile (no internet) access as well as tolerance for connectivity issues.

I believe that model will rival the success of DVD in bringing a true growth engine to the sell-through market.
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post #374 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by PSound View Post

I actually think their model of physical media and streaming is fine. They have shown that it is successful in the marketplace, and with investors.

What I am saying is that Netflix knows their business and can trace their growth right back to the streaming "rocketship".

It amazes me that there is even a conversation on that topic. I have not seen one analyst commentary that disputes the fact that streaming is their growth engine.

It is fine, it's great. I really enjoy my Netflix account and I believe it is one of the best values out there. They do a great job, period.

I just wish I had bought the stock in 2005 when it was nine bucks.

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post #375 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

And quality moves even further down that list, I'm not sure it would even be in the top 5 "wants" nowadays.

I think many of us know where quality ranks. At least at my age (60+). Quality has continued to go by the wayside and what passes as quality is just a newer generations lowered expectations. The MP3 being a prime example.

Digital, in the end, is a thow a way medium anyway. In actuality, it does not exist as something you can touch and feel. I am showing my age here, but I prized my vinyl collection. Still do. It's not the same as something that comes down to us out of the ether.

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post #376 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by PSound View Post

My personal view is that the Netflix model is going to continue to grow and be the most successful streaming option for consumers, until....

The studios get serious and build a comprehensive model that allows people to purchase movies over the internet and have access to them over multiple devices and integrate a federated management system that provides true mobile (no internet) access as well as tolerance for connectivity issues.

I believe that model will rival the success of DVD in bringing a true growth engine to the sell-through market.

Absolutely. I would add to that the fact that the studios have always been against any form of "rental".. whether it be physical or other. Witness the ongoing fight with Redbox and the majors. I have said for years that if Hollywood could figure out a way to get the media in our hands, new releases especially, for under three bucks, it would kill the physical video rental business dead, quick. And, Lord knows they have tried. Remember those self distruct DVD's..?? You had something like 48 hours from opening the shrink wrap to watch it..??

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post #377 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

I assume this was in response to my post. Do you really believe Netflix cares what you or I think?

I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I posted that late in the evening and I knew that it would be the very next post, so barring a quote, the previous post is what I'm talking about.

And no, I don't think that Netflix cares about what you or I think, and reading my post, I don't think that I said anything to imply that I did .
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I believe Netflix has throughly investigated PPV for new titles and for them the $$&¢¢ just does not add up to being profitable. If it were profitable then Netflix most likely would already be there.

Have you ever been involved in any kind of R&D? I'm a software engineer and I can tell you that all of the companies for which I've done product development over the past 30 years keep roadmaps of what new products they want to introduce to the market and what features they want to add to the products which they already sell (for products that are readily upgraded, like PC applications and network connected devices). Even the largest companies (of which Netflix is certainly not) have limited resources and can't do everything they'd like to do all at once; they have to concentrate on the things they think are most important and those which need to be introduced in near term windows of market opportunity. To this point I think that Netflix has concentrated their streaming development efforts on helping their OEM partners to expand the group of devices which have access to their service (they report having recently shipped Wii discs for Netflix streaming to a beta group). Some effort has had to be made to repair the many streams which won't play on all platforms. I'm sure that they knew last year that they weren't going to be able to add 5.1 sound and closed captions to streaming titles until sometime this year. Contrary to what you or I believe or don't, Netflix could be planning pay-per-viewing-period premium streaming VOD to be added sometime in the future. It's possible that things have been delayed by the need to set up agreements with their content suppliers for that sales model. As I said before, there is a marketing problem, since there are many people who believe that they should be getting new release streams from the no-extra-cost service.
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As of now the profit center for Netflix is DVD & Blu-ray-ray disc rental by mail. Netflix is trying to turn streaming into a profit center but as of now it is a cost burden (their words, not mine).

(I believe you, but where did they say that? I can't locate anything googling "Netflix 'cost burden'"). First, renting discs is also Blockbuster's profit center, both by mail and from their B&Ms and now kiosks, yet they delve in premium VOD as well. Netflix's no extra cost, low-to-medium quality streaming service is a totally different thing from a premium high-quality VOD rental service ($4 to $6 per 24-hour viewing period like all of the competition in that space). And there is plenty of competition, some from much larger companies who've considered the business case and think that it can be profitable. It shouldn't be considered as the same business as the no-extra-cost thing.
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They do state that streaming has helped increase their member ship. It would appear advertising has helped increase their member ship because they sure are doing a lot of it (even national spots during the winter Olympics) but adds & streaming are still cost burdens.

I'm not sure how you would separate the effects of the two, and again, it's only your opinion that streaming has a lesser effect on their increased membership than advertisement. Remember, every one of their current ads speaks of the availability of instant streaming. Their slogan is "Get movies 2 ways for 1 low price; DVDs by mail plus watch instantly on your TV". That or a variation thereof is in all of their ads. The ads that I've seen most recently all (but one) demonstrate streaming and a couple of them are completely about streaming, only mentioning DVDs in a voice-over at the end. (They all involve the very strange "Wrightnow Family" and you can see them all here. "The Wrightnows Peanut Brittle" and "Instant Wrightnows" only talk about streaming; "The Wrightnows Mom" and "The Wrightnows Treehouse" are only about disc rental and "The Wrightnows Uncle Hector" is a mixture, with some family members watching discs while one watches a stream. In most of those with streaming they're using PC streaming and in "The Instant Wrightnows" they have one of the embedded UIs on their TV screen).

Many people have bought or are buying televisions, BD players and new retail DVRs with Netflix streaming players embedded; some of them, as well as some owners of Xbox 360s, PS3s (and soon Wiis) are trying Netflix just for the streaming because they see that their equipment has the capability and many are keeping the service. Some don't care about the discs at all. Many people have reported dropping their multi-disc plans since streaming was introduced on embedded devices and going to one-at-a-time-unlimited, a drop in profits which I suppose is offset by increased membership and decreased churn.

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post #378 of 6726 Old 03-26-2010, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Absolutely. I would add to that the fact that the studios have always been against any form of "rental".. whether it be physical or other. Witness the ongoing fight with Redbox and the majors. I have said for years that if Hollywood could figure out a way to get the media in our hands, new releases especially, for under three bucks, it would kill the physical video rental business dead, quick. And, Lord knows they have tried. Remember those self distruct DVD's..?? You had something like 48 hours from opening the shrink wrap to watch it..??

I believe they love the idea of a rental.... they just HATE the price of a rental (and specifically how much cheaper it is compared to other options). There is a very good reason rentals on vod/xbl/psn/etc are $6. Netflix is winning because it offers a SIGNIFICANTLY better value than anything else and streaming is doing the same thing.

I would argue the studios love the idea of us never having the illusion we own the movies and pay each time we want the movie.
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post #379 of 6726 Old 03-27-2010, 12:42 AM
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Originally Posted by jsirbak View Post

That's what's great about being a bandwagon sports fan - we just have to watch when the home team makes the playoffs, in which case its broadcast OTA!

Its nice when your teams make the playoffs every year isn't it

One thing I'd like to add from my experience as I'm sure its been discussed in this thread. The quality of the streaming is so inconsistent. I see people raving about watching Lost and I have no doubt it looks great especially if you have sufficient bandwith. But I've watched some movies that looked like a 360p youtube video. The one that stands out for me is the Dead Pool This leads me to believe the video itself is to blame. I don't have the DVD but it would be interesting to compare the Netflix stream to the physical disk. Anyone do this?
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post #380 of 6726 Old 03-27-2010, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jagouar View Post

I believe they love the idea of a rental.... they just HATE the price of a rental (and specifically how much cheaper it is compared to other options). There is a very good reason rentals on vod/xbl/psn/etc are $6. Netflix is winning because it offers a SIGNIFICANTLY better value than anything else and streaming is doing the same thing.

I would argue the studios love the idea of us never having the illusion we own the movies and pay each time we want the movie.

Netflix value is undeniable. Studios stance on rental, however, has been clearly demonstrated by their actions over the years. Every rental is a lost sale to them.

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post #381 of 6726 Old 03-27-2010, 11:31 AM
 
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Its nice when your teams make the playoffs every year isn't it

One thing I'd like to add from my experience as I'm sure its been discussed in this thread. The quality of the streaming is so inconsistent. I see people raving about watching Lost and I have no doubt it looks great especially if you have sufficient bandwith. But I've watched some movies that looked like a 360p youtube video. The one that stands out for me is the Dead Pool This leads me to believe the video itself is to blame. I don't have the DVD but it would be interesting to compare the Netflix stream to the physical disk. Anyone do this?

I have not checked, but I am guessing Dead Pool may be a Starz picture. Starz seems to have some of the worst encodes.

You are absolutely correct that a big piece of the quality puzzle is the source. Hollywood is making progress towards a central standard digital source for streaming encodes. That should help things significantly as each service can then encode to the highest quality that their delivery services can offer.
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post #382 of 6726 Old 03-29-2010, 07:25 PM
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Starz seems to have some of the worst encodes.

i agree with this 100%.. although starz seems to have the best choice in movies (at least for my tastes), the picture quality is the worst that netflix offers..
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post #383 of 6726 Old 03-29-2010, 07:32 PM
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Witness: Spartacus, a Starz series in its juddering, waxy, cartoonish looking presentation.

The advertisments for the show in sd on tv are hd like compared to the show itself on NF streaming. What's with that?
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post #384 of 6726 Old 03-29-2010, 07:49 PM
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None of the Starz Play encodings are HD and few if any are even widescreen. I guess that they don't want it to compete with their cable and satellite channels.

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post #385 of 6726 Old 03-29-2010, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

None of the Starz Play encodings are HD and few if any are even widescreen. I guess that they don't want it to compete with their cable and satellite channels.

...And that is why I gave up streaming the series and will wait for the dvd or BD to be issued.
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post #386 of 6726 Old 03-29-2010, 09:46 PM
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I agree. If I see the Starz logo I hit "stop"
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post #387 of 6726 Old 03-30-2010, 05:16 AM
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My pops just got a Roku. He has DSL and his speed is slow at 1.5 download and 0.5 upload. He has his Roku hooked up to a 46" Sony Bravia LCD via HDMI. He doesnt mind the picture quality but It is so bad in my opinion, I cant even sit there and watch a movie on it. Is it most likely that he has too slow of internet?
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post #388 of 6726 Old 03-30-2010, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

None of the Starz Play encodings are HD and few if any are even widescreen. I guess that they don't want it to compete with their cable and satellite channels.

Odd...I have yet to see a StarzPlay title that wasn't widescreen. Plenty of wrong aspect ratios (16:9 instead 2.35:1) but still "widescreen" (I am assuming you mean you are seeing them as 4:3). Just looking through my recent watched history of StarzPlay titles, I see Raising Arizona, Fired Up, Air Bud (hey, my kid wanted to watch it), Behind The Mask, The Boy In The Striped Pajamas, Spiral, Finishing The Game, Hatchet, Pineapple Express, Miracle at St Anna (I could go on), and none of them are 4:3. I thought I read the PS3 has some trouble with aspect ratios of some Netflix titles...but I think you use the 360, same as I. Would be curious what titles you are looking at.

No HD of course on StarzPlay.

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Originally Posted by bstansbu View Post

My pops just got a Roku. He has DSL and his speed is slow at 1.5 download and 0.5 upload. He has his Roku hooked up to a 46" Sony Bravia LCD via HDMI. He doesnt mind the picture quality but It is so bad in my opinion, I cant even sit there and watch a movie on it. Is it most likely that he has too slow of internet?

That is way too slow. It should be obvious when you start a title and the quality test shows up as 1 or 2 dots instead of 4, as well as about a million posts all over this forum and the internet asking what speeds you need. You should have at a bare minimum, 3MBps to view SD, and around 6-8 for HD. At least. He should ask his provider if they offer higher speeds (or shop for a different provider)
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post #389 of 6726 Old 03-30-2010, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mproper View Post

That is way too slow. It should be obvious when you start a title and the quality test shows up as 1 or 2 dots instead of 4, as well as about a million posts all over this forum and the internet asking what speeds you need. You should have at a bare minimum, 3MBps to view SD, and around 6-8 for HD. At least. He should ask his provider if they offer higher speeds (or shop for a different provider)

Havent done a search on needed speeds yet. I just stumbled into this thread. Thanks for your help though. Thats kinda what I suspected but wanted to make sure. Where he lives qwest only offers the 1.5 download speed. Old lines or something. Comcast just came to town though and they offer a 6,8, or 12 package. Ill see if he will be willing to switch.
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post #390 of 6726 Old 03-30-2010, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by bstansbu View Post

Havent done a search on needed speeds yet. I just stumbled into this thread. Thanks for your help though. Thats kinda what I suspected but wanted to make sure. Where he lives qwest only offers the 1.5 download speed. Old lines or something. Comcast just came to town though and they offer a 6,8, or 12 package. Ill see if he will be willing to switch.

Definitely upgrade if you want to use it. I know on the XBOX there's a huge difference between 3 and 4 bars (it's bars and not dots on the XBOX). I couldn't imagine watching anything with 2 bars. And you'll never get the HD streams with 1.5.
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