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post #4231 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 09:30 AM
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Also the S5100 streams Netflix good too. It has the old UI but it starts out in HD. Sometimes rarely it will drop down to SD but it will ramp back up to Super HD in less then 10 seconds.

That is my biggest beef with the PS3 and Roku 3 is that when it drops down to SD it can take up to 2 minutes and then it might only go up to 720p and stay there as is the case with the Roku 3.

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post #4232 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

However this does point out why ISP throttling accusations don't make much sense when one device in your household can stream Netflix fine and another doesn't. In my case the Roku 3 is nearly flawless, the ATV 3 (with recent firmware) is generally poor and the WDTV Live (3rd generation) is somewhere in-between. Are ISP's selectively throttling certain devices and not others? Additionally I have almost zero problems with streaming Amazon Prime, Hulu+ or iTunes on one or all devices. This is on TWC/Roadruuner 15/1 - non OpenConnect.

I have the same issue as well. My guess is that different devices connect to different CDNs. For example, Sony devices go through Sony network to get to Internet. I hear Samsung and LG do the same... their devices must go through their own network. Different CDNs mean different bandwidth availability.
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post #4233 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

From today's Netflix financials it seems Joe and Jill average are happy with Netflix streaming.

'In the U.S., Netflix added 2.33 million streaming subscribers in the fourth quarter, bringing its number of paying U.S. subscribers to 31.7 million'

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303947904579336820835982270?mg=reno64-wsj&url=http%3A%2F%2Fonline.wsj.com%2Farticle%2FSB10001424052702303947904579336820835982270.html

I've pointed that out before; whatever our complaints about Netflix they remain one of the most successful businesses on the scene today, with a steadily growing customer base and stock performance which leaves the rest of the S&P 500 in the dust. Until the problems which some customers have with them begin to affect that, they don't have any strong motive to fix those things.
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post #4234 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 11:43 AM
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so it's all the new customers creating the slow down? smile.gif
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post #4235 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post

However this does point out why ISP throttling accusations don't make much sense when one device in your household can stream Netflix fine and another doesn't. In my case the Roku 3 is nearly flawless, the ATV 3 (with recent firmware) is generally poor and the WDTV Live (3rd generation) is somewhere in-between. Are ISP's selectively throttling certain devices and not others? Additionally I have almost zero problems with streaming Amazon Prime, Hulu+ or iTunes on one or all devices. This is on TWC/Roadruuner 15/1 - non OpenConnect.

I have the same issue as well. My guess is that different devices connect to different CDNs. For example, Sony devices go through Sony network to get to Internet. I hear Samsung and LG do the same... their devices must go through their own network. Different CDNs mean different bandwidth availability.

When I was looking at what connections Netflix players on various devices make, I don't think that my Sony BDP maintained any connection to a Sony server while streaming Netflix. I think that it always pings one when it starts up though. The PS3 keeps a connection to a Sony server open at all times, but that's for reasons other than Netflix. It's known that there are several different sets of encodes maintained (120 "downloadables" per title as this recruiting slideshow claimed a couple of years back); some of them may only be available from a subset of the CDNs they use.

It's true though--consistently getting better Netflix streaming performance from one device than another flies in the face of any claim that the ISPs are specifically throttling Netflix's traffic in general. It's possible that they limit the amount of bandwidth incoming from a particular CDN and if your device is streaming from one of the less used ones it's in luck.
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post #4236 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 12:36 PM
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AFAICT, only this funky Sony 4K media player can stream 4K from Netflix. This year's crop of 4K televisions have Netflix players which can play the 4K streams but I haven't heard of any STB that can stream it.

is there any documentation anywhere to confirm this or is this your guess?
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post #4237 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 01:12 PM
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is there any documentation anywhere to confirm this or is this your guess?

"To give consumers even more 4K content choices, Sony is working with forthcoming 4K video services from Netflix and 4K photo services such as 500px and PlayMemories to enhance the 4K entertainment experience. "

From http://www.sony.com/SCA/company-news/press-releases/sony-electronics/2014/its-play-time-for-sony-at-ces-2014.shtml
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post #4238 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I've pointed that out before; whatever our complaints about Netflix they remain one of the most successful businesses on the scene today, with a steadily growing customer base and stock performance which leaves the rest of the S&P 500 in the dust. Until the problems which some customers have with them begin to affect that, they don't have any strong motive to fix those things.

Sad but true. Until the problems affect its bottom line (lose subscribers), Netflix won't have any incentive to fix the PQ problems.

Netflix is still the best bang for buck streaming video service out there. You know the fee increase is coming. How much are you willing to pay? How much PQ issues are you willing to tolerate?
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post #4239 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 01:25 PM
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/22/netflix-price-increase_n_4647065.html?ref=topbar



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post #4240 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 01:58 PM
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I would pay more/less if I can turn off Super HD and go back to the regular 1080p streams.
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post #4241 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

"To give consumers even more 4K content choices, Sony is working with forthcoming 4K video services from Netflix and 4K photo services such as 500px and PlayMemories to enhance the 4K entertainment experience. "

From http://www.sony.com/SCA/company-news/press-releases/sony-electronics/2014/its-play-time-for-sony-at-ces-2014.shtml

i hope that is referring to the "puck" media server as well, not just their TV's.

having said that, i don't see any netflix on the 4K server anywhere...
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post #4242 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 02:03 PM
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I would pay more/less if I can turn off Super HD and go back to the regular 1080p streams.

exactly. I don't even feel like they have 720p completely down yet with plain old 5.1 DD
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post #4243 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

i hope that is referring to the "puck" media server as well, not just their TV's.

having said that, i don't see any netflix on the 4K server anywhere...

From same press release:

"Sony is also developing its next-generation 4K Media Player with expanded codec support (AVC, HEVC and XAVC-S) to support streaming of 4K content, as well as storage and playback of footage shot with Sony 4K Handycam® camcorders."

What "puck" media player? I thought you were referring to: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1510739/sony-next-generation-4k-media-player-at-ces-2014 confused.gif

Netflix said 4K coming in next two years. Not sure exactly when.
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post #4244 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 02:44 PM
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The issue does at least seem to be getting more recent press coverage - another article

http://gigaom.com/2014/01/23/in-the-latest-battle-to-profit-from-control-of-the-internet-the-consumer-is-stuck-in-the-middle/

SUMMARY: Consumers complaining of poor Netflix and YouTube streams on certain ISP networks are the pawns in a fight over internet business models. Too bad knowing why this happens doesn’t fix this problem.
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post #4245 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

From same press release:

"Sony is also developing its next-generation 4K Media Player with expanded codec support (AVC, HEVC and XAVC-S) to support streaming of 4K content, as well as storage and playback of footage shot with Sony 4K Handycam® camcorders."

What "puck" media player? I thought you were referring to: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1510739/sony-next-generation-4k-media-player-at-ces-2014 confused.gif

Netflix said 4K coming in next two years. Not sure exactly when.

i am talking about this. the only sony 4K media server you can currently purchase.



Netflix has stated they plan to make 4K streaming available asap. House of Cards Season 2 was filmed in 4K and it becomes available in less than 3 weeks...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

Netflix has stated they plan to make 4K streaming available asap. House of Cards Season 2 was filmed in 4K and it becomes available in less than 3 weeks...


http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/10/5291068/how-netflix-won-ces-4k-streaming?utm_source=howtogeek&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter



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post #4247 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

AFAICT, only this funky Sony 4K media player can stream 4K from Netflix. This year's crop of 4K televisions have Netflix players which can play the 4K streams but I haven't heard of any STB that can stream it.

is there any documentation anywhere to confirm this or is this your guess?

I read it in a post at highdefdigest.com. Search there for the name of the device.

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post #4248 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by lincoln_husker View Post

i am talking about this. the only sony 4K media server you can currently purchase.

Supposedly there is another, info here. Redray has been promised forever but seems DOA.
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post #4249 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 03:59 PM
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Folks should be aware the Sony FMP-X1 works ONLY with certain Sony 4K products and only in the US. If you use it with a Sony 4K projector then you must have a Sony Xperia tablet to control it, other Android tablets need not apply eek.gif.
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post #4250 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

The issue does at least seem to be getting more recent press coverage - another article

http://gigaom.com/2014/01/23/in-the-latest-battle-to-profit-from-control-of-the-internet-the-consumer-is-stuck-in-the-middle/

SUMMARY: Consumers complaining of poor Netflix and YouTube streams on certain ISP networks are the pawns in a fight over internet business models. Too bad knowing why this happens doesn’t fix this problem.

Other than misuse of the term "peering," it was an interesting article in the light of net neutrality decision.

Here are some posts on "peering" from another poster, ivanhoek, who was in the industry from another thread about 6 months ago. Hope the explanation would provide some color and context to the article. It explains why Youtube and Netflix Open Connect CDN would be relatively unsuccessful. I am sure many of us remember his posts.
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Originally Posted by ivanhoek 
I have worked for major US ISP's and MSO's in the past, as well as Microsoft and DDOS mitigation companies , and I can say this.. ISP's agree to peer at the major exchanges when they believe that both partners in the peering agreement are more or less equal from a transit standpoint, that is, ISP A is likely to send as much traffic to ISP B, as ISP B is to send to ISP A. The peering relationship then makes sense, since it would not impact revenue (the transit fee revenue loss is offset by the savings of not paying out the same), and it simplified billing relationships.

Netflix isn't a transit carrier, so this arrangement doesn't work. Netflix will send the ISP a TON of traffic, but won't take any in return. Calling this peering is a severe misnomer and likely where all the major ISPs are balking.. There's zero gain for the ISP, and there is revenue loss from not charging transit for Netflix transit.
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Actually, not unreasonable at all. Most, if not all of the ISP's who have joined open connect are smaller ISP's who buy transit from the larger tier1 carriers (consumers of transit), rather than sell transit. Most of those ISPs only sell access to subs and are in no position to charge for transit.
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It's probably cheaper for the smaller ISP to get the traffic at the peering exchange directly from netflix than pay transit fees to their upstreams... remember, ISP's peer in tiers, and those smaller ones likely peer among themselves, but not with the big tier1's that sell them transit.

The bandwidth to the exchange is not free, so a small ISP also has the advantage of needing a smaller pipe, perhaps a single 10g wave. A big carrier would likely need to pay to augment their bandwidth at the exchange to absorb the presumably large amount of traffic they'd suck in from Netflix.
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Also, these big companies have a LOT of projects competing for resources. A project that brings in no revenue, and doesn't align to the strategic direction has very little chance of getting started and resources allocated. There isn't a single MSO out there that has as its strategy commoditizing its bandwidth, and being what they call a "dumb pipe". They ALL want to deliver value added services and content. So most of the resources are going to projects that bring in revenue and/or align to the strategy.

This Open Connect has those two strikes (no revenue AND no strategic alignment) against it, when seen from the eyes of a major MSO.
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post #4251 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post

The issue does at least seem to be getting more recent press coverage - another article

http://gigaom.com/2014/01/23/in-the-latest-battle-to-profit-from-control-of-the-internet-the-consumer-is-stuck-in-the-middle/

SUMMARY: Consumers complaining of poor Netflix and YouTube streams on certain ISP networks are the pawns in a fight over internet business models. Too bad knowing why this happens doesn’t fix this problem.
Thing is on Time Warner Cable YouTube performance has improved greatly. Use to be in the evening I could not watch anything HD during the summer but in the late fall it improved. Bad that Netflix has not gotten better especially with the new year.

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Direct connection to Open Connect is all that they're likely to put forward as a solution to poor service until and unless a significant number of subscribers jump ship for that reason. Although they probably have to assume operating and maintanence cost of the caching servers, should they choose to accept them, I'd be surprised if Netflix isn't willing to pay the MSOs whatever the commercial CDNs pay them to accept their traffic. It'd be nice if the facts were known and we wouldn't have to speculate as to the mega-MSOs' reasons for not adopting Open Connect.

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post #4253 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Direct connection to Open Connect is all that they're likely to put forward as a solution to poor service until and unless a significant number of subscribers jump ship for that reason. Although they probably have to assume operating and maintanence cost of the caching servers, should they choose to accept them, I'd be surprised if Netflix isn't willing to pay the MSOs whatever the commercial CDNs pay them to accept their traffic. It'd be nice if the facts were known and we wouldn't have to speculate as to the mega-MSOs' reasons for not adopting Open Connect.

The fact remains that Cablevision, although not as big as TWC or Comcast, is still a major player and an Open Connect partner. According to an Optimum spokesman, there is a financial arrangement between the two parties, but these agreements can not be disclosed and will never be available for public scrutiny.


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post #4254 of 6413 Old 01-23-2014, 11:57 PM
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There is a behind the scenes battle going on to control the Web
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It'd be nice if the facts were known and we wouldn't have to speculate as to the mega-MSOs' reasons for not adopting Open Connect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post


Here are some posts on "peering" from another poster, ivanhoek, who was in the industry from another thread about 6 months ago. Hope the explanation would provide some color and context to the article. It explains why Youtube and Netflix Open Connect CDN would be relatively unsuccessful. I am sure many of us remember his posts.

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The fact remains that Cablevision, although not as big as TWC or Comcast, is still a major player and an Open Connect partner. According to an Optimum spokesman, there is a financial arrangement between the two parties, but these agreements can not be disclosed and will never be available for public scrutiny.
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One thing I can agree with is mgkdragn's comment 'There is a behind the scenes battle going on to control the Web' It is the wild west out there where everyone is trying to set precedents for their revenue stream.

We (quite rightly) want competition for our local ISP connections which would solve many of the issues - but we also maybe starting to see consolidation on the content side. Netflix is becoming the 800 pound gorilla with YouTube also in the game - everyone else Hulu+, Amazon Prime, Red-box, Vudu etc is tiny by comparison.

I love my Netflix - but we may want to be careful about what we wish for....

(comcast / netflix ignore my rants smile.gif - I am very happy with my Netflix Super HD on Comcast 16 mbps connection.....)
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post #4255 of 6413 Old 01-24-2014, 07:43 AM
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I'm pretty excited to see when we get the first H265 aka HEVC Netflix players. Check out the excerpt from Netflix Exec Neil Hunt.

http://www.stuff.tv/netflix/ces-2014/how-netflix-going-bring-4k-streaming-your-tv/news

Even if you don't have a 4K TV, you'll see a benefit, Hunt claims. "The benefits trickle down; we're pioneering HEVC, which is about twice as efficient as AVC. And so, when we start to see those HEVC decoders get real, and the encoders get more efficient, we're going to be able to recode all the HD content – and the standard-def content, for that matter – in HEVC," he explains. "So people with a 2 Mbps DSL will be able to receive a better picture than they do today."


I excited that perhaps the 5800 kbps Super HD bitrate that we get today might be around 3500 kbps with a Netflix STB that uses HEVC
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post #4257 of 6413 Old 01-24-2014, 09:41 AM
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I know about VP9 but what matters is what Netflix is going to actually use. But either way both are exciting technologies because it will ultimately lead to delivering same quality content as lower bitrates.

Which should hopefully lead to better and more consistent performance during peak evening hours.
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post #4258 of 6413 Old 01-24-2014, 10:27 AM
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I know about VP9 but what matters is what Netflix is going to actually use. But either way both are exciting technologies because it will ultimately lead to delivering same quality content as lower bitrates.

Which should hopefully lead to better and more consistent performance during peak evening hours.

My concern is will the pre-existing Netflix apps be able to handle the new encoding. Netflix is not really known for updating its apps. Even now, none of my blu ray players is able to do Netflix 3D which is not a different encode.

If Netflix plans to send the streams encoded in the new scheme along side streams in the old encoding, wouldn't that worsen the PQ issues we are having now by worsening the bandwidth issue?
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post #4259 of 6413 Old 01-24-2014, 10:49 AM
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My concern is will the pre-existing Netflix apps be able to handle the new encoding. Netflix is not really known for updating its apps. Even now, none of my blu ray players is able to do Netflix 3D which is not a different encode.

If Netflix plans to send the streams encoded in the new scheme along side streams in the old encoding, wouldn't that worsen the PQ issues we are having now by worsening the bandwidth issue?

Unfortunately for the most part most no because especially small STB like Apple TV or Roku 3 rely on hardware decoding capabilities to do H264 today. The only Netflix players i see being able to possibly be able to do H265 in the future are gaming console like Xbone or PS4, I even doubt that the PS3 will get H265 support.

However, I hope i'm wrong...
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post #4260 of 6413 Old 01-24-2014, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by nephipower View Post

and the standard-def content, for that matter – in HEVC," he explains. "So people with a 2 Mbps DSL will be able to receive a better picture than they do today."
I hope then they can get rid of those godawful 240, 288, 388 terrible streams by using the same bandwidth that they use to achieve 480p.

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