Netflix streaming quality - Page 214 - AVS Forum

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Video Download Services & Hardware

michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
05:12 PM Liked: 817
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08-25-2014 | Posts: 18,048
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
LOL! I doubt that.

There are people who think that there are more than there are. Someone in the Roku forums will complain that something's not working right on their Roku 3 but it works fine on their TiVo Roamio and someone else (possibly a Roku staffer) will reply "you can't compare because they use different video encodes", which is untrue. They currently maintain 6 sets, two for old "legacy devices", two for Apple devices and two for most everything else, one of those being HEVC, introduced mostly to support 4K and not used by many things at all yet.
Brian Conrad's Avatar Brian Conrad
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post #6392 of 6841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
There are people who think that there are more than there are. Someone in the Roku forums will complain that something's not working right on their Roku 3 but it works fine on their TiVo Roamio and someone else (possibly a Roku staffer) will reply "you can't compare because they use different video encodes", which is untrue. They currently maintain 6 sets, two for old "legacy devices", two for Apple devices and two for most everything else, one of those being HEVC, introduced mostly to support 4K and not used by many things at all yet.
You mean this is no longer true?
http://gigaom.com/2012/12/18/netflix-encoding/
Or are you just in an nitpicking mood (again)?
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
08:06 PM Liked: 817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
You mean this is no longer true?

Or are you just in an nitpicking mood (again)?

They never did explain what those 120 "downloadables" are. The older profiles had muxed audio, integral with the video files and burned in subtitles for languages that weren't for the local region; they'd have had to produce multiple versions of titles with multiple language dubs and subtitles, which would account for some of that. (They were supporting Spanish, Canadian French and Brazilian Portuguese speaking regions at that time). The slide says "accomodates diffrent [sic] bit rates, audio tracks, captioning". They do explain the evolution of the encoding profiles in a slideshow entitled "A Brief History of Netflix Streaming"; they show a list of the 10 encoding profiles that they've developed over the years on slide 38, four of which are no longer in use. I don't know which were in use when that encoding slideshow was made (the HEVC one didn't exist then). A newer slideshow entitled "Encoding At Netflix: Netflix Digital Supply Chain shows a list of only the 6 profiles that are currently supported.

I commented on your post to try to quell the notion that device-specific encoding profiles are supported by Netflix (though two of the dead ones were solely for PS3 and Wii ). The reply wasn't aimed at you.
Brian Conrad's Avatar Brian Conrad
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08-26-2014 | Posts: 4,288
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This is where it helps to have some encoding experience and even playing with the free version of Microsoft Expression. Some devices will require a baseline profile whereas others can use more compressed files. There's all kinds of options when it comes to encoding and new solutions difficult to keep up with (especially if they are proprietary).

It's not so much that they encode for specific devices but devices can fall into groups they encode for.

Standards? What's that?
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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I'm pretty sure that devices adapt to what Netflix gives them, not the other way around, particularly these days. You create a device that can't display Netflix's streams, then you bring a device to market without a Netflix app while all of its competitors have one. (Someone did this recently, though I doubt that it was because their product was incapable of handling Netflix. I recall discussing the thing in the Roku forums, though I forget what it was. It might have been the latest iteration of WD TV; they're not listing Netflix among their US online services. They say "you don't need another player for Netflix" in their spiel. Lots of files-from-LAN-server oriented streamers--like Popcorn Hour--eschew apps for Netflix and some other of the most popular services, though they generally have apps for some network services. WD TV might now be one such; my 3rd gen WD TV Live is the single most capable networked file player that I own and has astonished me with the variety of things it can play).

The sole exception to this has been Apple devices. Since Apple already had HLS (completely incompatible with what they were doing for other platforms) they created an app which used that and an encoding profile for it. They said they had it working in 1.5 weeks after Apple invited them to be part of the original iPad launch and had it up and running on iPad with 20K titles (2 bit rates each) in 2 months. They've continued to evolve and support that profile and probably will keep doing it; Apple's customer base is certainly worth the effort.

Other than iOS devices, I believe that every device with a Netflix streaming app which launched in the past 3 years uses their "CE2" profile (as well as Xbox 360, PS3 and Wii, which are older), with AVC video, separate audio and timed text. They can support multiple platforms in multiple regions with different language requirements with a single set of encodes; it's very elegant. Also, their library is into multiple petabytes already; branching off special profiles to support specific groups of devices is not desirable.
Brian Conrad's Avatar Brian Conrad
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Michael, devices come with chipsets to decode these days and have long before Netflix did streaming. Like I said you group the devices into the chipsets they use. Some can only handle the base profile which is often recommended when you want to do one file that all can run. More recent chipsets can decode higher profiles which saves on bandwidth usage and provides a better picture.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
01:37 PM Liked: 817
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I understand what you're saying, but I strongly doubt that Netflix is creating multiple sets of video encodes to accommodate device capabilities for different levels of AVC. I think that they choose something (H.264 HP@whatever); whatever that something is, if you want your device to stream Netflix you design it to handle that.
reddice's Avatar reddice
02:23 PM Liked: 60
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If the Apple TV uses so called different CDN Networks and codecs then explain to me why if I start to watch something on one device then switch to the Apple TV I get the same exact CDN IP address?

Also playing the example shorts they all have the same bitrate encodes from the horrible low def encodes, 1050 kbps and 1750 kbps 480p encodes to 2350, 3000 kbps 720p to 4300 kbps and 5800 kbps 1080p. The only thing I can say about the Apple TV is that it is the sharpest picture out of all the streamers as even 1750 kbps 480p looks just like a unconverted DVD especially if you compare it with Batman Beyond which is 480p done right compared to their badly encoded 480p and 720p content.
Brian Conrad's Avatar Brian Conrad
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Not to mention I am curious if Netflix provides Webm encodes for Chromecast. Webm makes it a little easier to do DASH. I've played with some of Google's utilities to do such and tried their examples.
mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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Suddenly not receiving Super HD encodes on my Panasonic TV this week. Stream will only ramp up to 720p (3000kps). This problem seems to be spreading, and limited to Panasonic smart TV's. Now it even effects Open Connect ISP's. This is not a Panasonic issue, it is a Netflix problem. My set has never received a firmware update. I have contacted Netflix and filed a complaint. Anyone having the same issue should do the same.


Ian
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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It's been reported in another thread (here) that WD TV seems to be limited to 720p right now. I've tried it with my WD TV and can confirm that. I tried several other devices (Roku 3, Xbox One, TiVo Roamio, Panasonic DMP-BDT220 and the Win8 Netflix app on this PC) and of them only the Panny BDP exhibits the same problem.

Question: does your smart TV have the old Netflix common UI or the new Netflix common UI? WD TV Live and BDT220 are my only devices which still have the old common UI, so it could be the common denominator. EDIT: my Sony BDP-S390 has the old UI as well; I just tried it and it has the same problem. That's 3 products from 3 different OEMs: WD, Panasonic and Sony. Strong indications are that it's the old UI; it's the same JavaScript code running on every device.
SkOrPn's Avatar SkOrPn
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We noticed problems tonight as well, but right around 9:15pm Saturday evening. Seems like a prime time weekend issue. That was on the Roku 3 which is not connected to a VPN. I need to try the VPN Connection on my computer now which is always 1080p any time of day.
mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
It's been reported in another thread (here) that WD TV seems to be limited to 720p right now. I've tried it with my WD TV and can confirm that. I tried several other devices (Roku 3, Xbox One, TiVo Roamio, Panasonic DMP-BDT220 and the Win8 Netflix app on this PC) and of them only the Panny BDP exhibits the same problem.

Question: does your smart TV have the old Netflix common UI or the new Netflix common UI? WD TV Live and BDT220 are my only devices which still have the old common UI, so it could be the common denominator. EDIT: my Sony BDP-S390 has the old UI as well; I just tried it and it has the same problem. That's 3 products from 3 different OEMs: WD, Panasonic and Sony. Strong indications are that it's the old UI; it's the same JavaScript code running on every device.
You are correct Mike. It's the older UI that is on my 2013 Panny. I will contact them and I suggest you do the same. Thanks.

Ian
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
You are correct Mike. It's the older UI that is on my 2013 Panny. I will contact them and I suggest you do the same.

I don't care; I don't watch Netflix on any of those devices . I mainly use my TiVo Roamio or Roku 3.
mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
I don't care; I don't watch Netflix on any of those devices . I mainly my TiVo Roamio or Roku 3.
But I already gave them your name!


Ian
lovinthehd's Avatar lovinthehd
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Well, last coupla times I've tried Netflix I'm not getting beyond 720HD but that isn't very surprising really...right now it's Saturday night, and am on DSL Century Link hooked up to a PS3 in the boonies (max offered "up to" 12mbps). I'll keep an eye on it.
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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You shouldn't have any problem with the PS3, which has the new UI.
lovinthehd's Avatar lovinthehd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
You shouldn't have any problem with the PS3, which has the new UI.
Yeah, now right at the end of the movie I got 1080 super HD....probably most of people around here have gone to bed, freeing up the lines....and last few times I watched were more regular hours....
reddice's Avatar reddice
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Wonder if the Fire TV is affected as it uses the old Netflix UI?
michaeltscott's Avatar michaeltscott
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post
Wonder if the Fire TV is affected as it uses the old Netflix UI?

Please test it for us. If so, it's a little strange that no one has noticed and reported it in the AFTV thread.
DRC72's Avatar DRC72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Well, last coupla times I've tried Netflix I'm not getting beyond 720HD but that isn't very surprising really...right now it's Saturday night, and am on DSL Century Link hooked up to a PS3 in the boonies (max offered "up to" 12mbps). I'll keep an eye on it.
12Mbps is more than enough bandwidth to run Super HD.
JustaSheep's Avatar JustaSheep
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Here's an interesting article. It might not be news to many, but it is informative (the first "secret" is what I'm referring to. The other pages are not related):

3 Netflix Secrets
Brian Conrad's Avatar Brian Conrad
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Suddenly not receiving Super HD encodes on my Panasonic TV this week. Stream will only ramp up to 720p (3000kps). This problem seems to be spreading, and limited to Panasonic smart TV's. Now it even effects Open Connect ISP's. This is not a Panasonic issue, it is a Netflix problem. My set has never received a firmware update. I have contacted Netflix and filed a complaint. Anyone having the same issue should do the same.


Ian
Probably due to me watching Netflix earlier in the evening.
Losan
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Since last Friday my Netflix connection also seems to be capped exactly at 3000kbps bitrate (720p). Same problem occurs on Google TV and Roku 2 XS.

I'm 100% sure it's not my connection speed to be blamed as 3000kbps is always buffering at ~12-18mbit/s (my router allows to see WAN speed graph). It seems like some glitch on Netflix side that prevents both devices from receiving higher bitrate encodes.
RRS1947's Avatar RRS1947
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My AT&T Elite tier download speed was increased on August 27, 2014 from up to 6mbps to up to 8mbps [Download SyncRate (kbps) 8190]. All my speed test results using TestMy.net during daytime hours are stable an consisitent using different servers using various download file sizes from 12MB to 200MB with a 0-1% variance beginning to end over the entire download. My download speeds now range from 7.5 to 7.9 using multiple servers and TestMy.net's Multithread testing using all the US servers simultaneous.

AT&T Uverse Tier 2 Tech Support in the Arizona call center on 8/29 told me that they may be improving the ADSL2+ and VDSL Tier Packages for users. He also told me that he was not aware of any bulletins or information at this time.

Today the Field Service Supervisor told me that is was being rolled-out "all over the place" and he had no advanced notice of the speed increase when I first called him on Friday 8/29.

The solid >7mbps speed enables me to view the Netflix 1080p HD 5800kbps stream instead of the Netflix 1080p HD 4300kbps stream I could only get with the previous 6mbps Elite package.

The increase in speed has no additional cost. I have a hunch that this speed bump up comes on the heels of the implementation of the AT&T Netflix peering agreement as an incentive for increasing the number of potential subscribers.

_____________________
mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Losan View Post
Since last Friday my Netflix connection also seems to be capped exactly at 3000kbps bitrate (720p). Same problem occurs on Google TV and Roku 2 XS.

I'm 100% sure it's not my connection speed to be blamed as 3000kbps is always buffering at ~12-18mbit/s (my router allows to see WAN speed graph). It seems like some glitch on Netflix side that prevents both devices from receiving higher bitrate encodes.
Call them and tell them that. I'm having the same problem which also started Friday. Several others here have this issue, many of which have devices with the older UI.

Ian
RRS1947's Avatar RRS1947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Call them and tell them that. I'm having the same problem which also started Friday night. Several others here have this issue, many of which have devices with the older UI.

Ian

Using my Roku 2XS I noticed over the past 4 days that the two test videos I prefer to use on Netflix;
El Fuente: 60 MP10 and Test Pattern: Downscaling 2997fps 10Min, have been locked on the 3000kbps stream; even Example Short is.

However all the 'SuperHD' videos seem to be playing the 4300kbps and 5800kbps streams, with my vision (20/15 from 4 feet to 1000 feet), HDTV Panel
and distance from the screen. I use the House of Cards opening credits scene which along with text the camera pans up, down, right, left, scenes change change from day to night. I find this clip to be an excellent subjective viewing and accessing HD quality test.

My hypothesis is that my AT&T/Netflix is using both outside peering and the inside the exchange caching appliances. The inside caching appliances stream the most viewed and/or popular titles, the others are passed through the outside the exchange connection. Either both can be used or outside only, or inside caching only.



mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RRS1947 View Post

Using my Roku 2XS I noticed over the past 4 days that the two test videos I prefer to use on Netflix;
El Fuente: 60 MP10 and Test Pattern: Downscaling 2997fps 10Min, have been locked on the 3000kbps stream; even Example Short is.

However all the 'SuperHD' videos definitely are playing the 4300kbps and 5800kbps streams, no question with my vision, huge HDTV Panel
and distance from the screen. I use the House of Cards opening credits scene which along with text the camera pans up, down, right, left, scenes change change from day to night. I find this clip to be an excellent subjective viewing and accessing HD quality test.

My hypothesis is that my AT&T/Netflix are using both outside peering and the inside the exchange caching appliances. The inside caching appliances stream the most viewed and/or popular titles, the others are passed through the outside the exchange connection. Either both can be used or outside only, or inside caching only.

If example short is not going higher then 3000 kbps, your movies are also not streaming at the higher rates. Doesn't your equipment show you the resolution? My set shows me the resolution which confirms I'm only getting 720p for all Super HD movies that I have streamed lately. Cablevision an Open Connect partner, has checked my recent data usage and has confirmed that I currently have more then enough bandwidth to support 5800 kbps Netflix streams. The IT tech there also claims that Netflix provides new updated OC hardware monthly. The Roku 2 never received the updated interface do to tech issues, and IMO, like many smart devices that have the older interface, will not be getting the updated encodes that will be needed to support Super HD. It's called built in obsolescence.

Ian
reddice's Avatar reddice
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Maybe Netflix is coming out with new Super HD eyeIO encodes?
mailiang's Avatar mailiang
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reddice View Post
Maybe Netflix is coming out with new Super HD eyeIO encodes?
If they do, I doubt it will be available on the older UI. This is why most smart TV's/BD players are dumb. They never get updated.


Ian

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