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post #631 of 6377 Old 07-28-2010, 04:58 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

My Pioneer AV receiver only displays ProLogic, Dolby Digital and DTS. Checking the display so far on two streams that were definitely stereo it said ProLogic. I will see what it says on a stream that I think may be 5.1. However stereo cable network shows are shown as Dolby Digital and 5.1 also show that. My older Yamaha receiver would indicate whether the stream was stereo or 5.1. However it didn't integrate well into my system and I replaced it with the Pioneer that did and provided component switching.

The player (Samsung C5500) is set to Audiophile so it is just sending the stream unmodified to the receiver.

If the receiver says "Pro Logic," that means you have Pro Logic turned on. This is why you're hearing things directed to your surround speakers, just as I suspected. On your Pioneer's remote, you should have a button that says "Stream Direct" or "S Direct" or something similar. While you're watching one of the titles (preferably the one that you thought was in 5.1,) hit that button a few times. It should cycle through a few variations of the "stream direct" setting (probably Auto Surround, Direct, and Pure Direct, if it's anything like my Pio receiver.) Stop hitting the button when it says either Direct or Pure Direct. You should not hear anything out of your surround speakers and the receiver itself should indicate that it's getting a stereo feed.

Keep in mind that the above suggestions are only intended to help diagnose the issue. You may want to turn back on some form of processing, depending on your own preferences. I tend to keep Dolby PL IIx (a more advanced form of Pro Logic) turned on for most things, as I have a 7.1 setup and PLIIx does a pretty damn good job with the lossless/uncompressed 5.1 tracks found on BD.
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post #632 of 6377 Old 07-28-2010, 07:24 PM
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The receiver is the Pioneer VSX-D850S. It is set on Digital Select. When the Samsung is run it reads ProLogic until I play something. With an HDX preview of Losers on Vudu it went to Digital and was definitely 5.1. The problem with your argument is that ProLogic would have created surround from stereo sources but it didn't. There is a setting on the player for processing but I'm not using it. The digital mode the receiver is set to is "Standard" which means it doesn't process the signal. I'll keep an eye on the display to see if any of the Netflix streams read "Dolby Digital."
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post #633 of 6377 Old 07-28-2010, 09:31 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

The receiver is the Pioneer VSX-D850S. It is set on Digital Select. When the Samsung is run it reads ProLogic until I play something. With an HDX preview of Losers on Vudu it went to Digital and was definitely 5.1. The problem with your argument is that ProLogic would have created surround from stereo sources but it didn't. There is a setting on the player for processing but I'm not using it. The digital mode the receiver is set to is "Standard" which means it doesn't process the signal. I'll keep an eye on the display to see if any of the Netflix streams read "Dolby Digital."

Whatever you say. Clearly you know more about this than anyone else posting here. Enjoy those Conrad-exclusive 5.1 tracks via Netflix Watch Instantly.
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post #634 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Steeb View Post

Whatever you say. Clearly you know more about this than anyone else posting here. Enjoy those Conrad-exclusive 5.1 tracks via Netflix Watch Instantly.

Never said I know more about this than anyone else here. Once again: if ProLogic were someone "creating" mock surround it would do it on all the Netflix titles not just a couple. For one thing it may well be that not all Netflix apps are created equal and perhaps they have upgraded some to support 5.1 with the plan to upgrade all of them. For another though a two year old blog says Netflix encodes the videos themselves that doesn't mean that these days studios may be supplying the encodes according to their specs. Those may have come 5.1. Netflix may not want to advertise 5.1 until all the apps handle it. I would think it would be a long term goal.

I'm merely speculating based on what I experienced. Furthermore I'm going to test some surround files particularly ones with 5.1 audio test signals encoded with AAC to see who the player handles them.
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post #635 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

They've been testing a full-Netflix-library search feature of the PS3 player on selected boxes for some months--not everyone using that player sees it and AFAIK they still haven't announced it.

They announced it yesterday on the Netflix blog, here. Apparently it's a new feature of their interface to the platforms and Sony is the first to incorporate it into their player.

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post #636 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

They announced it yesterday on the Netflix blog, here. Apparently it's a new feature of their interface to the platforms and Sony is the first to incorporate it into their player.

I've never tried it as I use the TiVo, but do you still have to insert the disc when using the PS3?
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post #637 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I've never tried it as I use the TiVo, but do you still have to insert the disc when using the PS3?

yes, until I think October
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post #638 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I've never tried it as I use the TiVo, but do you still have to insert the disc when using the PS3?

I don't use it either; I have a TiVo, PS3 and Xbox 360 and I use the Xbox because its interface is the most feature-full and visually slickest. (TiVo is probably the least feature-full--no "genre-browsing", though you can do some interesting things with TiVo Search and a streaming-only/free-of-charge-only filter ). I'm impressed with the PS3 search thing, but not impressed enough to switch, especially since all three devices share a 46" LCD panel with the PC I'm composing this post on, so I can more quickly and easily use the PC to search Netflix than with any search feature that will ever appear on one of the embedded players.

BTW, my housemate recently got an iPad and I tried the Netflix player on it--not too shabby, but sound quality on the iPad is woefully poor (to my ears) even through very good headphones.

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post #639 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 02:18 PM
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That's basically what I've been doing, search and select on a PC and then view via the TiVo. When the PS3 doesn't need the disc anymore it sounds like it would be the way to go, but with the disc it's a bit cumbersome. Yeah, I know, that sounds lazy, but when you get to be my age, convenience is the name of the game.

What is this TiVo search filter you mention?
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post #640 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 02:43 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

Never said I know more about this than anyone else here. Once again: if ProLogic were someone "creating" mock surround it would do it on all the Netflix titles not just a couple. For one thing it may well be that not all Netflix apps are created equal and perhaps they have upgraded some to support 5.1 with the plan to upgrade all of them. For another though a two year old blog says Netflix encodes the videos themselves that doesn't mean that these days studios may be supplying the encodes according to their specs. Those may have come 5.1. Netflix may not want to advertise 5.1 until all the apps handle it. I would think it would be a long term goal.

I'm merely speculating based on what I experienced. Furthermore I'm going to test some surround files particularly ones with 5.1 audio test signals encoded with AAC to see who the player handles them.

The funny thing is, if you'd tried the test I suggested, we would have the truth by now. Instead, we have more BS about testing things other than what we're discussing (which is the audio from titles available via Netflix Watch Instantly.) Of course, based on how you responded to others who didn't believe you were somehow the only person getting 5.1 from the Netflix streaming, it's fairly clear that you're not interested in learning the truth. The post I'm referring to is this one, by the way:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

No my system is NOT set up for that kind of processing. For the record I work with video and have created mixes for 5.1 Dolby so I think I might be able to hear the difference. The AV receiver is set for just straight processing of a Dolby signal. If a selection is stereo the surrounds output nothing. This was a film that benefits from surround taking place where you would have creatures in the distance in a jungle like setting (New Zealand). Is there any reason you believe that WI wouldn't have some selections in 5.1?

Now, if you really want the truth, do the following:

1. Load up the movie you were watching (Nature's Grave) just like you did before.
2. FF to a place where you can definitely hear the sounds in the surround speakers.
3. Get up, walk over to the receiver, and hit the "direct" button (I know it's there, as I've read the manual for your receiver.)
4. Once it says "direct," see if you can hear anything from the surround speakers (you won't.) If you can't, it's not in 5.1.

Again, if your receiver says "Pro Logic" when you're watching Nature's Grave, that means you have Pro Logic processing turned on, which is why you're hearing sounds from the surround speakers.

It really doesn't matter to me what you believe, so if you want to remain blissfully ignorant, that's certainly your choice. You really have no excuse anymore for why you can't see the truth for what it is. There's a reason why no one's coming to your defense and making the same claims you have...
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post #641 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 02:55 PM
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Anyone getting the search feature thru PS3 that michaeltscott mentioned earlier..?? I always felt, besides having to use the disk, that the lack of a search ability outside of the PC was kinda cumbersome.

As keenan said, at my age it's all about convienience.

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post #642 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Anyone getting the search feature thru PS3 that michaeltscott mentioned earlier..?? I always felt, besides having to use the disk, that the lack of a search ability outside of the PC was kinda cumbersome.

As keenan said, at my age it's all about convienience.

I just tried the PS3 for the first time. It has a pretty standard alpha-numeric pad, and it also has tabs for different genres, I'm guessing that's the new part.
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post #643 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

What is this TiVo search filter you mention?

I've written about this "feature" once or twice on TiVo Community Forum. Do the following:
  • Go to TiVo Central->Find Programs->TiVo Search
  • Hit ENTER to get the Search Options menu
  • Set "Quality" if you want (there's an "HD Only" choice)
  • Set "Source" to "Available to download only"
  • Set "Cost" to "Free only"
  • Set "Category" to whatever category and subcategory you're interested in
  • Hit SELECT a couple of times to get out
This will limit search matches to no cost downloads or Netflix streams; most of these will be Netflix streams, though there is a slender possibility of matching something which can be downloaded for free from Amazon, Blockbuster or whereever that's not available as a Netflix stream. As you scroll through the list of matches, it will display icons for the available sources on the right, under a cover thumbnail.

For instance, I set Quality to "HD Only", Source and Cost as indicated above and Category to Movies->Science Fiction. I then browse the available selections by putting one character at a time in the search term field. I put an "A" in the field and there are no matches; I press CLEAR and put a "B" in the field and there are no matches; I press CLEAR and put a "C" in the field and get Contact, The Core and Cyber Wars. Unfortunately all three can be rented in HD from Amazon so only The Core has an HD stream on Netflix (I know this because I tried them all). I choose The Core and hit RIGHT ARROW to get into the menu on its Details page and select "Watch Now". This gets me to the Netflix player's description page for the film and I choose "Play". The movie starts with an HD connection. It's not in my Instant Queue (and, unfortunately, there's no option to put it there either, so if I want to pause this and go back and play it again, I'll have to search for it again ). I hit LEFT ARROW a few times to get back to the search term field, press CLEAR and put a "D" in the field which matches The Dead Zone (has an HD stream). Press CLEAR and place an E in the field and get Eight Legged Freaks (also with an HD stream). You get the idea .

Not horribly intuitive and kind of annoying--it'd be great if there were wildcards so I could put a "*" in the search term field and browse a list of everything matching the filter, but this is better than nothing. Playing with it now, I just found out that the "HD Only" filter is kind of worthless; I removed it, put an "A" in the search term field and got a bunch of matches, including Aliens, The Animatrix and Appleseed, all of which have HD Netflix streams--nothing matches "A" with "HD Only" specified .

Enjoy .

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post #644 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I just tried the PS3 for the first time. It has a pretty standard alpha-numeric pad, and it also has tabs for different genres, I'm guessing that's the new part.

No--the genre tabs have been there forever and also in most of the other embedded players and have been around for at least a year (I think). There are 18 of them, most containing the 75 most popular selections of their genre (I assume they're the most popular).

It's the search feature which is brand new. Search is apparently also in the "New Roku Experience" and in the Netflix players of a couple of newer BD players. It hasn't made it to the Xbox yet and not even Genre lists have made it to TiVo.

I talked about it in this post at the end of April; if you scroll down from there you can see some pictures of it that I posted. Googling around at that time I found mention of it from two weeks before in some PS3 blog's forums, so it's been in customer test since at least mid-April.

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post #645 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 09:32 PM
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I wish I could remember what show I was watching, but it was HD on my PC . When I pressed "shift-ctr-alt-m" it showed the video bit rate @ 3500kbps, audio @ 64kbps!

At least give me a 128kbps stereo track...I wonder what they will squeeze 5.1 channels into?

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post #646 of 6377 Old 07-29-2010, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by EJ View Post

I wish I could remember what show I was watching, but it was HD on my PC . When I pressed "shift-ctr-alt-m" it showed the video bit rate @ 3500kbps, audio @ 64kbps!

At least give me a 128kbps stereo track...I wonder what they will squeeze 5.1 channels into?

All of the PC HD encodings that I've checked have been 128 Kbps (You can see a list of HD encodings for the PC here; as I write this, there are 145 of them, versus 1354 streams with HD encodings for the embedded platforms).

I think that I've said it before, but recently I've seen encodings of BD rips at an aggregate of 3500 Kbps with 2900 Kbps 720p24 AVC video and 640 Kbps 6-channel AC3 audio. I don't know how they were made, but the video was more than decent, definitely better than HD Netflix streams, and the audio was good. It's really nothing new though--the standard-quality HD Vudu encodings have to fit into 4 Mbps network service and those are 720p24 with digital surround. Netflix could be doing much better within the bandwidth constraints they've set.

I just tried watching some of Ghost in the Shell on my PC, forcing the stream to HD with CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-S. The audio sounded really good, but I'm sure that my PC is messing with it. It has a Realtek chip on its motherboard and its output is set to Dolby Digital Live 5.1; it's connect to my receiver via optical S/PDIF, the only only device in my system not connected for audio via HDMI.

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post #647 of 6377 Old 08-01-2010, 03:14 PM
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I searched the thread and didn't find mention of anyone having trouble with a funny cadence/stutter problem with Netflix streaming; has anyone else been experiencing this?
The last four or five movies we've watched had an annoying problem with horizontal motion, especially evident in camera pans. I'd describe it as a "stutter". It's consistent and regular throughout the programming whenever there's horizontal motion.
I haven't noticed the problem in video and film sourced TV series we've watched, but it's bad enough in some movies that I have to stop watching (the kids don't seem to mind.....).
Any thoughts?
EDIT: I forgot to mention the gear... this is the embedded Netflix service on a Samsung flat panel. The film/video display settings are set to "auto" and work correctly with my other sources.
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post #648 of 6377 Old 08-01-2010, 08:23 PM
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I notice this from my PC on occasion, however not with Roku or PS3.

Sorry, I guess I haven't given it much thought.

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post #649 of 6377 Old 08-01-2010, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtiner View Post

I searched the thread and didn't find mention of anyone having trouble with a funny cadence/stutter problem with Netflix streaming; has anyone else been experiencing this?
The last four or five movies we've watched had an annoying problem with horizontal motion, especially evident in camera pans. I'd describe it as a "stutter". It's consistent and regular throughout the programming whenever there's horizontal motion.
I haven't noticed the problem in video and film sourced TV series we've watched, but it's bad enough in some movies that I have to stop watching (the kids don't seem to mind.....).
Any thoughts?
EDIT: I forgot to mention the gear... this is the embedded Netflix service on a Samsung flat panel. The film/video display settings are set to "auto" and work correctly with my other sources.

What movies were those? Most all of the Starz Play movies have that jittery look during camera pans...Netflix isn't responsible for those encodes, they come directly from Starz servers. I watched Planet 51 a few days ago-a CGI animated film, and the jittering was present even there, something I wasn't expecting in an encode of an animated movie.
I've never seen this effect in any of the non Starz movies/tv shows I've watched. I have an Insignia Blu ray player.
Edit-Oh I forgot about this, some older British tv show encodes aren't as pristine as US shows and movies. There was a link from the Hacking Netflix blog that talked about how the encodes for PAL produced British shows were done. I can't find it at the moment though.

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post #650 of 6377 Old 08-02-2010, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Westly-C View Post

What movies were those? Most all of the Starz Play movies have that jittery look during camera pans...Netflix isn't responsible for those encodes, they come directly from Starz servers. I watched Planet 51 a few days ago-a CGI animated film, and the jittering was present even there

The kids watched Planet 51 a few days ago, and I noticed the stutter/jitter. I also noticed it when the kids watched The Karate Kid and Up. Looking back on the viewing history, it does appear that all problematic titles are Starz Play.
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post #651 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtiner View Post

I searched the thread and didn't find mention of anyone having trouble with a funny cadence/stutter problem with Netflix streaming; has anyone else been experiencing this?
The last four or five movies we've watched had an annoying problem with horizontal motion, especially evident in camera pans. I'd describe it as a "stutter". It's consistent and regular throughout the programming whenever there's horizontal motion.
I haven't noticed the problem in video and film sourced TV series we've watched, but it's bad enough in some movies that I have to stop watching (the kids don't seem to mind.....).
Any thoughts?
EDIT: I forgot to mention the gear... this is the embedded Netflix service on a Samsung flat panel. The film/video display settings are set to "auto" and work correctly with my other sources.

Yes, I've noticed it too on a few titles; it's very annoying. I wish I could remember which ones. I'll post again next time I see it.
I'm using a PS3 feeding a Sony 60XBR1.
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post #652 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtiner View Post

I searched the thread and didn't find mention of anyone having trouble with a funny cadence/stutter problem with Netflix streaming; has anyone else been experiencing this?
The last four or five movies we've watched had an annoying problem with horizontal motion, especially evident in camera pans. I'd describe it as a "stutter". It's consistent and regular throughout the programming whenever there's horizontal motion.
I haven't noticed the problem in video and film sourced TV series we've watched, but it's bad enough in some movies that I have to stop watching (the kids don't seem to mind.....).
Any thoughts?
EDIT: I forgot to mention the gear... this is the embedded Netflix service on a Samsung flat panel. The film/video display settings are set to "auto" and work correctly with my other sources.

judder .. http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

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post #653 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

judder .. http://www.projectorcentral.com/judder_24p.htm

Nope. We're not talking about 3:2 pulldown judder here. This is a much more marked effect as though adjacent frames have in some way been combined. There's definitely something wrong.
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post #654 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 09:33 AM
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Definitely not judder. I see it during pans in Planet 51 as well--I'm glad I watched it on BD. It pretty much only happens during pans. Some sort of encoding artifact.

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post #655 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 09:57 AM
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MPEG-4 has elements that allow it to take part or all of a picture and just in code move it a little more. The encoding heuristics determine whether they can get away with it or not. One can see some rather hilarious things scrubbing through h.264 frames with something like VLC. So some encoders will also determine that a pan is going on and actually reduce the frame refresh and that's what you're seeing. It gives the codec at a low bitrate time to build these reduced number of full frames if the first technique doesn't work. I've seen it for years on some DVDs and even with my first HD camera.
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post #656 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post

MPEG-4 has elements that allow it to take part or all of a picture and just in code move it a little more. The encoding heuristics determine whether they can get away with it or not. One can see some rather hilarious things scrubbing through h.264 frames with something like VLC. So some encoders will also determine that a pan is going on and actually reduce the frame refresh and that's what you're seeing. It gives the codec at a low bitrate time to build these reduced number of full frames if the first technique doesn't work. I've seen it for years on some DVDs and even with my first HD camera.

Great post .. makes a lot of sense.

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post #657 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 07:31 PM
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What movies were those? Most all of the Starz Play movies have that jittery look during camera pans...Netflix isn't responsible for those encodes, they come directly from Starz servers. I watched Planet 51 a few days ago-a CGI animated film, and the jittering was present even there, something I wasn't expecting in an encode of an animated movie.
I've never seen this effect in any of the non Starz movies/tv shows I've watched. I have an Insignia Blu ray player.
Edit-Oh I forgot about this, some older British tv show encodes aren't as pristine as US shows and movies. There was a link from the Hacking Netflix blog that talked about how the encodes for PAL produced British shows were done. I can't find it at the moment though.

I have not had any of the stuttering/jitter issues on my LG BD390 until this past Sunday. We watched Pillars of Earth (Starz) and it made my wife and I dizzy. As the movie went on, the effect seemed to go away. Or, our brain/eyes just got used to it???

I will see if it's the same on this coming Sunday's new episode.

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post #658 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 08:37 PM
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We watched Pillars of Earth (Starz) and it made my wife and I dizzy. As the movie went on, the effect seemed to go away. Or, our brain/eyes just got used to it???

Perhaps there were no more fast pans after a while. In Planet 51 I only noticed it during scenes where the background was rolling by at a fair pace; it didn't happen at all in scenes with a static background.

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post #659 of 6377 Old 08-03-2010, 09:15 PM
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It's still an issue whether it's happening at all though, right?
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post #660 of 6377 Old 08-04-2010, 03:11 AM
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It's still an issue whether it's happening at all though, right?

Not to my mind. I found scenes in Planet 51 where the artifact was clearly present.

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