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post #6931 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post
The increased spatial resolution in UHD doesn't really excite me and certainly won't get me updating my 1080P Panasonic Plasma.

However the higher dynamic range, wider color gamut, gamma etc recently proposed by the UHD Alliance at CES 2015 does excite me.

You haven't seen HDR UHD yet (no-one really has apart from early CES demos this week) - but if they do it correctly it should look much better than today's 1080P or UHD (with the improvements mainly from HDR and not the increased spatial resolution).

I certainly wouldn't be buying any of the current UHD sets - but could see myself getting an HDR UHD set once specs and the technology have matured a little.


Now here's a subject you and I can totally agree on! I posted the Morrison HDR article on one of the plasma threads.


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I'm fairly confident in saying most of us know 4K / UHD is a simplified term used to make it sound sexier than 2160p .. I mean, 2160p does not exactly roll off the tongue ..

My issue with '4K' is that it's misleading. We've been using the 1080p term for how many years now? I have no problem with just UHD or 2160p.


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post #6932 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
My issue with '4K' is that it's misleading. We've been using the 1080p term for how many years now? I have no problem with just UHD or 2160p.


Ian
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post #6933 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
My issue with '4K' is that it's misleading. We've been using the 1080p term for how many years now? I have no problem with just UHD or 2160p.

What will really irk you is that some people are using the term 2K to mean 1080 res . Just as there is a Digital Cinema Initiative "DCI 4K" resolution of 4096x2160 there's a DCI 2K res of 2048x1080. In a way, 1080 and 2160 aren't a lot better, since there are multiple standard formats with those vertical resolutions: "Uh--you talkin' 'bout 2160x3840 or 2160x4096"?

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post #6934 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Whether it's in HD or SD, I strive for the best quality available. It's why I still have my old CRT. Watching older classic movies on a high rez flat screen looks bad and it just doesn't cut it for me.
If the image starts out great, it usually remains great on a big screen (e.g., 50-in HDTV). However, if the image starts out poor, a big screen makes it worse.

I tend to watch way too many movies. Most of them look even better on a larger screen, especially when Blu-ray captures even better resolution to be rendered on the big screen. This seems to apply to most digital transfers of films.

However, I have also seen some old movies where the transfer was made from film stock or negatives where there were lots of scratches or numerous emulsion flake-offs, or videos where there were ringing artifacts, ghosting, or an apparent brightening of every other scan line. One time I even watched a movie where the only advantage of a HD stream was to magnify the film grain without bringing out any more detail in the original film. In those cases, a smaller screen seems to do better because, while a larger screen shows more detail, a larger screen also amplifies the visual flaws.

Fortunately, it seems that the majority of the popular movies from bygone years are in the first category or had gone through extensive restoration to restore the original beauty and to eliminate most of the visual flaws.

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Sony BDP-S3100 Blu-ray player, Roku N1000 (original model), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (120Mbps/12Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Preferred Plus), DVD/VHS player.
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post #6935 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
What will really irk you is that some people are using the term 2K to mean 1080 res . Just as there is a Digital Cinema Initiative "DCI 4K" resolution of 4096x2160 there's a DCI 2K res of 2048x1080. In a way, 1080 and 2160 aren't a lot better, since there are multiple standard formats with those vertical resolutions: "Uh--you talkin' 'bout 2160x3840 or 2160x4096"?
My point is gentlemen, since UHD displays have a vertical rez of 2160, just as HD displays have a vertical rez of 720 and full HD displays 1080, why not be consistent and just leave it at that. 4k is just more marketing crap.

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post #6936 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 05:09 PM
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My point is gentlemen, since UHD displays have a vertical rez of 2160, just as HD displays have a vertical rez of 720 and full HD displays 1080, why not be consistent and just leave it at that. 4k is just more marketing crap.

C'mon--the term "Full HD" is utter marketing crap. The ATSC specs defined high definition as being either 720x1280 or 1080x1920 resolution. Years after that marketers start throwing around the term "Full HD" to make 1080 res sound like something new and special.

4K is the accepted term, much more commonly used than Ultra HD. Use it or don't but it's established and it's not going away. Go to any e-tail site and browse televisions and the filter option for that type of display will be labelled "4K" or "4K Ultra HD", not simply UHD or 2160p. Joe and Jill Average (or the salesperson at Best Buy) won't know what the hell you're talking about when you say 2160p but they do understand (vaguely) what 4K is and in the context of the consumer it's 2160x3840. Joe and Jill Average don't know those numbers but they do understand that it's lots more pixels and we've all been taught that lots more pixels is a good thing .

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post #6937 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Joe and Jill Average (or the salesperson at Best Buy) won't know what the hell you're talking about when you say 2160p but they do understand (vaguely) what 4K is and in the context of the consumer it's 2160x3840. Joe and Jill Average don't know those numbers but they do understand that it's lots more pixels and we've all been taught that lots more pixels is a good thing .
"Hey Bill, what do you think we need to do to spin this new 2160p to make it sound like a must have ..?"
"Well, George, let's try to make it sound richer, fuller and more satisfying than that old HD moniker."
"I got it, let's call it 4K .. you know, like money." Everybody likes money. 4K it is."
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post #6938 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
C'mon--the term "Full HD" is utter marketing crap. The ATSC specs defined high definition as being either 720x1280 or 1080x1920 resolution. Years after that marketers start throwing around the term "Full HD" to make 1080 res sound like something new and special.

4K is the accepted term, much more commonly used than Ultra HD. Use it or don't but it's established and it's not going away. Go to any e-tail site and browse televisions and the filter option for that type of display will be labelled "4K" or "4K Ultra HD", not simply UHD or 2160p. Joe and Jill Average (or the salesperson at Best Buy) won't know what the hell you're talking about when you say 2160p but they do understand (vaguely) what 4K is and in the context of the consumer it's 2160x3840. Joe and Jill Average don't know those numbers but they do understand that it's lots more pixels and we've all been taught that lots more pixels is a good thing .
I have to respectfully disagree. If you're going feed consumers with crap, at least be consistent about it. We're all use to hearing 1080p, not 1k or any k for that matter. 2160p just seems like a more logical progression to me.

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post #6939 of 7537 Old 01-09-2015, 10:23 PM
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I have to respectfully disagree. If you're going feed consumers with crap, at least be consistent about it. We're all use to hearing 1080p, not 1k or any k for that matter. 2160p just seems like a more logical progression to me.

I have heard people refer to 1080p as "2K TV"; I mentioned that above--google it. In any case it's not worth arguing about. "4K" as a term meaning 2160x3840 res in US consumer television space is a fait accompli. You can say 2160p--I usually do in conversations in these forums. Say it to your next door neighbor and he probably won't know what you mean, unless you explain it; if he mentions "4K TV" to you, you'll know exactly what he's talking about.

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post #6940 of 7537 Old 01-10-2015, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
What will really irk you is that some people are using the term 2K to mean 1080 res . Just as there is a Digital Cinema Initiative "DCI 4K" resolution of 4096x2160 there's a DCI 2K res of 2048x1080. In a way, 1080 and 2160 aren't a lot better, since there are multiple standard formats with those vertical resolutions: "Uh--you talkin' 'bout 2160x3840 or 2160x4096"?
I am with mailiang on this.

In earlier times we had 720P or 1080P for consumers displays and we went to Digital Cinemas that could display 2K or 4K and I doubt anyone was confused.

There is a reason Digital Cinemas use the term 2K or 4K - movie aspect ratios are all over the place so they quote the horizontal resolution as the vertical resolution is different from movie to movie.

For consumer 16:9 displays the aspect ratio is always the same - so we went from 480P, to 720P, to 1080P and then 2160P (oops sorry that wasn't sexy enough....)

So what can we do - so wait a minute consumers think the Digital Cinema 4K is great (it is) and well 2160P UHD is 'nearly' 4K.

I have never heard anyone call Consumer 1080P '2K' (using the Best Buy analogy try asking for a 2K TV ).

Anyway the point is the Digital Cinema 2K and 4K far exceed consumer 1080P and 2160P (UHD) - it is not spacial resolution (obviously) but color depth, gamut etc.

1080P Blu-Ray cannot match 2K Digital Cinema.

Hopefully the new UHD Alliance HDR specs might bring consumer UHD closer to the Digital Cinema 4K quality.
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post #6941 of 7537 Old 01-10-2015, 01:36 PM
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HDR is probably just another gimmick to get you to buy yet another new TV to keep up with the Joneses. There was a discussion about this on the forum I read with one of the H.265 developers when the question came up about supporting it. Often most people would not be able to perceive the difference.
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post #6942 of 7537 Old 01-10-2015, 02:24 PM
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So what can we do - so wait a minute consumers think the Digital Cinema 4K is great (it is) and well 2160P UHD is 'nearly' 4K.

Do you imagine that any significant percentage of the consumer video viewing and television buying public will ever become aware of what DCI 4K is and the difference between it and 2160p? If they do, we can call it "DCI 4K". As you point out the larger difference is not in resolution.

As I said, "4K" as meaning 2160x3840 res in the consumer space is a done deal. Do you think that there'll be some sort of "don't call it 4K anymore" advertising campaign? Obviously not gonna happen. The point is beyond moot; it's not really a point.

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post #6943 of 7537 Old 01-10-2015, 03:54 PM
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HDR is probably just another gimmick to get you to buy yet another new TV to keep up with the Joneses. There was a discussion about this on the forum I read with one of the H.265 developers when the question came up about supporting it. Often most people would not be able to perceive the difference.
As I posted in the PDP forum, the idea is to boost peak brightness levels without sacrificing black levels. The result should be better contrast and depth, which unlike UHD, is paramount when it comes to improving over all PQ. Unless you were at CES to see an actual demonstration, I'd recommend you wait to see how this new Dolby tech all pans out. I would also suggest you read Geoffrey Morrison's (same guy who wrote CNET's Why Ultra HD 4K TV's Are Still Stupid ) Sound&Vison article, including the How It Looks part. LG is currently developing an HDR OLED set. You can see CNET'S senior editor David Katzmaier's take on it here LG's OLED HDR TV Shines Brighter

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Do you imagine that any significant percentage of the consumer video viewing and television buying public will ever become aware of what DCI 4K is and the difference between it and 2160p? If they do, we can call it "DCI 4K". As you point out the larger difference is not in resolution.

As I said, "4K" as meaning 2160x3840 res in the consumer space is a done deal. Do you think that there'll be some sort of "don't call it 4K anymore" advertising campaign? Obviously not gonna happen. The point is beyond moot; it's not really a point.
Obviously we can't dictate what language CE manufactures chose to promote their products, but it doesn't change the fact that previously they labeled HD TV's based on the more common vertical resolution specs. (ie: 1280X720, 1366X768, 1024X768) 768 or 720p (broadcast) was close enough for me. Then came the 1080p designation. Now with UHD, they've changed gears and have decided to cite the more ambiguous but higher horizontal specification instead. Comparing the 1080p label to the UHD 4k label is like comparing apples to oranges, and IMO, is misleading.

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post #6944 of 7537 Old 01-10-2015, 09:37 PM
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Obviously we can't dictate what language CE manufactures chose to promote their products, but it doesn't change the fact that previously they labeled HD TV's based on the more common vertical resolution specs. (ie: 1280X720, 1366X768, 1024X768) 768 or 720p (broadcast) was close enough for me. Then came the 1080p designation. Now with UHD, they've changed gears and have decided to cite the more ambiguous but higher horizontal specification instead. Comparing the 1080p label to the UHD 4k label is like comparing apples to oranges, and IMO, is misleading.

Ian
Ian, of course it's misleading, and I'm sure most would agree .. and I read the CNET article some time ago .. but, you know as well as the rest of us that advertising in general is misleading and deceptive on so many levels on so many things .. the CE folks need a cash cow .. it's been that way since mono and wire recorders .. you're just tilting at a windmill .. I can respect that, but don't beat the dead horse .. .. I'm apparently suffering from an abundance of clichés tonight, or it may be Jack Daniels talking ..

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post #6945 of 7537 Old 01-10-2015, 10:13 PM
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I can respect that, but don't beat the dead horse .. .. I'm apparently suffering from an abundance of clichés tonight, or it may be Jack Daniels talking ..
If I'm beating a dead horse, then what's Undecided beating, a dead donkey? Jack Daniels? No wonder you're up past your bedtime.



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post #6946 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 07:12 AM
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So would 480p be like .004356K? Sorry had to ask lol.


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post #6947 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 07:19 AM
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My frustration with Netflix is the high amount of pixelation. I watch about 3 minutes of a movie in the theater room and I get frustrated and torrent the movie in 10 minutes and watch the movie in real HD.
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post #6948 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 08:19 AM
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My frustration with Netflix is the high amount of pixelation. I watch about 3 minutes of a movie in the theater room and I get frustrated and torrent the movie in 10 minutes and watch the movie in real HD.
AVS really discourages illegal download discussion of any type, since most of us know there would be no content unless people paid for it ..

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post #6949 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 08:20 AM
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My frustration with Netflix is the high amount of pixelation. I watch about 3 minutes of a movie in the theater room and I get frustrated and torrent the movie in 10 minutes and watch the movie in real HD.


Who's your ISP and what is your download speed? I watch Netflix all the time in 1080p and never experience any pixelation.

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post #6950 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 08:42 AM
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AVS really discourages illegal download discussion of any type, since most of us know there would be no content unless people paid for it ..
The real interesting bit is that a filesharing network can pull down a full 40GB bluray in a matter of minutes but the legal streaming services can't maintain a 10mbit stream without having to degrade quality during peak hours. If netflix had a pre-load option where you could tell it to start downloading a movie to watch it later, allot of these complaints would go away. Most players either have internal storage or you could plug a flash drive into the USB port so it could be done with our current hardware. Ofcourse they would need to change their entire infrastructure and software to support it so I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Another curious thing is that I get perfect quality streaming netflix over VPN but when I do it directly I also get hiccups. Either my ISP's transit or peering towards netflix is overloaded or they are using traffic shaping to keep netflix usage down. Most people would simply curse at netflix and fire up their filesharing client. Netflix gets a bad rep while the ISP is really at fault...
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post #6951 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 09:06 AM
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The real interesting bit is that a filesharing network can pull down a full 40GB bluray in a matter of minutes but the legal streaming services can't maintain a 10mbit stream without having to degrade quality during peak hours. If netflix had a pre-load option where you could tell it to start downloading a movie to watch it later, allot of these complaints would go away. Most players either have internal storage or you could plug a flash drive into the USB port so it could be done with our current hardware. Ofcourse they would need to change their entire infrastructure and software to support it so I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Another curious thing is that I get perfect quality streaming netflix over VPN but when I do it directly I also get hiccups. Either my ISP's transit or peering towards netflix is overloaded or they are using traffic shaping to keep netflix usage down. Most people would simply curse at netflix and fire up their filesharing client. Netflix gets a bad rep while the ISP is really at fault...
I think you'll find these points have been discussed ad nauseam on the thread .. and yes, it really still boils down to your provider, not NF
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post #6952 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 09:07 AM
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If I'm beating a dead horse, then what's Undecided beating, a dead donkey? Jack Daniels? No wonder you're up past your bedtime.



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post #6953 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 09:47 AM
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You know I'm just poking you .. don't get thin skinned on me now ..
What makes you think I'm getting thinned skin? My reply was in all in fun, or did you miss my smileys? Then again, maybe it's because you're still a bit hungover from all that Jack!


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What makes you think I'm getting thinned skin? My reply was in all in fun, or did you miss my smileys? Then again, maybe it's because you're still a bit hungover from all that Jack!


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Guilty as charged, sir ..
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post #6955 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
As I posted in the PDP forum, the idea is to boost peak brightness levels without sacrificing black levels. The result should be better contrast and depth, which unlike UHD, is paramount when it comes to improving over all PQ. Unless you were at CES to see an actual demonstration, I'd recommend you wait to see how this new Dolby tech all pans out. I would also suggest you read Geoffrey Morrison's (same guy who wrote CNET's Why Ultra HD 4K TV's Are Still Stupid ) Sound&Vison article, including the How It Looks part. LG is currently developing an HDR OLED set. You can see CNET'S senior editor David Katzmaier's take on it here LG's OLED HDR TV Shines Brighter

Ian
But will it sell? They thought 3D was going to be a big selling feature too. People may just look at 4K and HDR and say "meh, my current TV is good enough". And you have to have income to buy these things, something which is lost of golden parachuted execs. Maybe they ought read up on Henry Ford.
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post #6956 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 01:03 PM
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But will it sell? They thought 3D was going to be a big selling feature too. People may just look at 4K and HDR and say "meh, my current TV is good enough". And you have to have income to buy these things, something which is lost of golden parachuted execs. Maybe they ought read up on Henry Ford.
I think at some point, HDR / 4K may just be all that's out there in sets above a certain size .. myself, I've demoed the tech and personally see no compelling reason to seriously consider replacing my 65" or my 1080p projector ...


My stance has always been 4K is the CE folks hoping for a cash cow .. that famous guy here on AVS known as Joe Sixpack I think, for the most part, could care less ..

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post #6957 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 01:06 PM
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Unlike 3D, the industry seems hell-bent on making "4K" TVs the new standard, whether there's any demand for them or not. (It's interesting to note that none of the major OEMs have included 3D support in their 2015 products as announced at CES). I think that 1080p television tech has become so cheap that competition drives prices down to the point where margins are very thin and they want something new to keep prices and profits high. They'll push "Ultra HD 4K" by marginalizing 1080p sets, reserving enticing features for "4K"; eventually there won't be any 1080p smart TVs and 1080p will take the place of 720p televisions. I don't know about HDR; it's a harder sell than 4K. The consumer public already has a "more is better" mentality (at least in the US) and can understand that "4K" is four times as many pixels. Try explaining HDR to them without making their eyes glaze over .

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post #6958 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 02:09 PM
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The consumer public already has a "more is better" mentality (at least in the US) and can understand that "4K" is four times as many pixels. Try explaining HDR to them without making their eyes glaze over .
The more consumers understand the technology, the more they will understand what they are actually paying for. Better sales training and support from retailers would go a long way in helping people make the best buying decisions before they walk out the door. Like FALD, HDR will eventually be integrated into more affordable TV's, it's just a matter of time. Despite the end of PDP's, and the rise of cheaper then cheap flat screens, the future looks pretty bright for TV's (no pun intented). Manufacturers are striving to make real improvements with software enhancements and led emissive technology, which despite lower pricing, will render picture quality better then it has ever been before.

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Last edited by mailiang; 01-12-2015 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Typo
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post #6959 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 09:15 PM
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Last time I checked, 2 times 2 still equaled 4. Try again.
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post #6960 of 7537 Old 01-11-2015, 09:35 PM
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The reality is, UHD (3840X2160) is two times the resolution not four.

Huh? Four times the number of pixels is four times the resolution, or at least so we used to think back when I worked on computer graphics software; of course, we could have been technically wrong. People say that 1080x1920 is twice the resolution of 720x1280, being slightly more than twice as many pixels. In any case, whether you consider it to be four times the resolution or twice the resolution, it is four times as many pixels, which is something that Joe Average can understand; the image is made up of eight million resolvable elements rather than 2 million in a 1080x1920 image.

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