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post #7021 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
I would not get a Blu-ray (correct spelling) player until later this year when 4k Blu-ray comes out. Even if you do not yet have a 4k display.
Early adopters generally pay the price ..


a Sony BDPS5100 can generally be had for 70 bucks or so as a refurb and is an excellent player ..


I would not be surprised if First Gen UHD units start off priced at $500 or more .. the first BD player was around a grand .. first DVD player around the same ..

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post #7022 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
Early adopters generally pay the price ..


a Sony BDPS5100 can generally be had for 70 bucks or so as a refurb and is an excellent player ..


I would not be surprised if First Gen UHD units start off priced at $500 or more .. the first BD player was around a grand .. first DVD player around the same ..
I guess I missed the part about budget considerations. And this is not Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD - 4k is here to stay. Go with it or have instant outdated equipment.

As for price I would take the under on an over/under 500 wager. Way under.
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post #7023 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Gary J View Post
I guess I missed the part about budget considerations. And this is not Blu-ray vs. HD-DVD - 4k is here to stay. Go with it or have instant outdated equipment.

As for price I would take the under on an over/under 500 wager. Way under.
As a guy that's been into this hobby since 1968, I can safely say history may prove you wrong price wise .. CE folks always get greedy at an initial rollout and there are always early adopters that will fork over the dough .. and UHD acceptance is not a given by any stretch .. DVD still outsells BD ..


Let's see .. what did the first UHD set sell for initially ..

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post #7024 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 02:41 PM
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As a guy that's been into this hobby since 1968, I can safely say history may prove you wrong price wise ..
Then it seems like you would know that is for big leaps like SD to HD audio and video. 4k is not a big leap. Walmart will be selling a 4k player by Black Friday for $150 or so.
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post #7025 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 02:54 PM
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Then it seems like you would know that is for big leaps like SD to HD audio and video. 4k is not a big leap. Walmart will be selling a 4k player by Black Friday for $150 or so.

With the spec yet to be announced, I can't predict nor can you, the ultimate availability of any UHD players .. although I'm sure the CE folks want them in stores by Thanksgiving .. and, technically, the term is UHD .. not 4K .. 4K is a standard in cinema for images that are 4096 x 2160. UHD content is four times the resolution of Full HD or 3840 x 2160, but it’s technically not 4K ..


My main interest in UHD is .. color space, higher dynamic range and high frame rate .. but I'm not going to jump in and replace by BD collection, been there too many times, even got the t-shirt ..
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post #7026 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 03:01 PM
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My main interest in UHD is .. color space, higher dynamic range and high frame rate .. but I'm not going to jump in and replace by BD collection, been there too many times, even got the t-shirt ..
Exactly, 4k (pick your term) is not a leap.
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post #7027 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
As stated, to this point not many devices can output Netflix as a 24p signal (sadly, my new television's smart TV apps seem to deliver 24p video to it as a 60Hz signal ). Of devices I own, my 2012 Panasonic DMP-BDT220, WD TV Live Streaming, TiVo Roamio and TiVo Premiere can output 24p Netflix, VUDU and Amazon (not on TV Live) as a 24Hz signal. For that reason TiVo Roamio is my current favorite streamer for those services. I only use the TV's smart apps if I want to view something in 2160p (aka "4K") from Netflix or Amazon.
How well the device in the signal chain does the conversion will obviously have impact on PQ. In your case it's the Tivo and not the Vizio which is surprising since it is a UHD model with a top end video processor.

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I decided to try it again today just for the heck of it but the PS4 is totally crap for playing Netflix. Just now like before it is in 1080p then I pause it to go to the bathroom and a few minutes later it drops down to that godawful 240p. Everytime. Of course if I watch the entire program without pausing it stays in 1080p. What a waste of money that turd of a box it. I will stick to the Fire TV and ATV3 and I am looking into getting a standalone BluRay player. Which is the best one for playing BluRays? I really want one with a bluetooth remote something the crappy PS4 lacks.
Now that's exactly what I was referring too. Does it ramp back up to 1080 when you restart it? (Although it can happen for me (rarely) even without pausing the stream). Since we both have similar issues, are using different equipment and ISP's, I can only assume the problem is with Netflix and certain devices. I can't remember having this problem with my Roku, but then again, I haven't used it for Netflix for quite some time now.

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post #7028 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 03:50 PM
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It will go back to 1080p if I rewind the stream about 30 seconds. Also Ian you are right some devices do this like the PS4 where my speeds are great no congestion and then it's adaptdumb streaming the app uses will drop down to the lowest quality for no reason. I see you have a Roku that does not do it. The Roku is a great device however I had to disconnect it as it broadcast on the same channel as my WiFi network even when plugged in Ethernet.

The Fire TV works good for Netflix. Most of the time it starts out in HD but the only annoying bugs is the freeze frame it does when the audio continues but the video freezes then speeds up. Also sometimes it will just kick you back to the episode screen which is rare but I can deal with that over sudden mud like quality.

The Apple TV 3 has no freeze up issues and streams great on 5ghz WiFi and does not shrink the credits but the only thing I can't do is roll back the stream 5 seconds to watch something again but otherwise it is good for Netflix too.

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post #7029 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 06:11 PM
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How well the device in the signal chain does the conversion will obviously have impact on PQ. In your case it's the Tivo and not the Vizio which is surprising since it is a UHD model with a top end video processor.

If you're talking about 2:3 pulldown to output 24p as a 60Hz signal that's true--some devices do it better than others. But it's much better if the device doesn't have to do that conversion at all, with 24p output as a 24Hz signal to a multiple-of-24Hz-refresh display. TiVos have been able to output a 24Hz video signal since the previous model line (Premiere and now Roamio). It does it on a pass-thru basis; it can only output 1080p24 video at 24Hz and can't convert other formats to that, as it can convert 480i, 480p and 720p to 1080i if you set 1080i as the only output format. Only relatively recently have TiVos had the new Netflix, streaming Amazon and VUDU apps and when they emerged it could output their 24p streams as 24Hz signals.

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post #7030 of 7485 Old 02-10-2015, 06:36 PM
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.. and, technically, the term is UHD .. not 4K .. 4K is a standard in cinema for images that are 4096 x 2160. UHD content is four times the resolution of Full HD or 3840 x 2160, but it’s technically not 4K ..

Give it a rest, Uncle Willie . The 2 syllable "four-kay" rolls so much more easily off the tongue than "twen-tee-one-six-tee-pee". "ten-eh-tee-pee", though 4 syllables, was so much sexier, being two multiples of 10 smacked together, and coincidentally 3 times 360, a number used in the names of extreme sports tricks. Marketeers are going to keep pushing 4K as a name for 3840x2160 res and only a miniscule portion of the public will ever know of the existence of the DCI format.

I agree with you about the probable high initial costs of 4K BD players. I predict that initial demand will be really low. 1080 BD never achieved the adoption rate of DVDs and many people are still satisfied with the latter. 4K may be here to stay, but it's not because of consumer demand and ROI on UHD BD development is going to be very slow if they hit the market at a budget price.

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post #7031 of 7485 Old 02-11-2015, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Of devices I own, my 2012 Panasonic DMP-BDT220, WD TV Live Streaming, TiVo Roamio and TiVo Premiere can output 24p Netflix, VUDU and Amazon (not on TV Live) as a 24Hz signal.
For Blu-ray movies my 220 always outs 24p but if I stream a Netflix movie it does 60 and I have to manually select 24. I there a work around so it defaults to 24 for Netflix?
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post #7032 of 7485 Old 02-11-2015, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Give it a rest, Uncle Willie . The 2 syllable "four-kay" rolls so much more easily off the tongue than "twen-tee-one-six-tee-pee". "ten-eh-tee-pee", though 4 syllables, was so much sexier, being two multiples of 10 smacked together, and coincidentally 3 times 360, a number used in the names of extreme sports tricks. Marketeers are going to keep pushing 4K as a name for 3840x2160 res and only a miniscule portion of the public will ever know of the existence of the DCI format.
I agree .. my post was really just for the record .. but UHD may have a shot .. it's a moot point anyway since the honchos never bothered to call me and ask what I'd do ..

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post #7033 of 7485 Old 02-11-2015, 08:52 AM
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For Blu-ray movies my 220 always outs 24p but if I stream a Netflix movie it does 60 and I have to manually select 24. I there a work around so it defaults to 24 for Netflix?

Unfortunately, no. You only have to enable it once per session and it can be done in the library browser before actually playing anything; if you play multiple titles before exiting Netflix you don't have to do it again. Lamentably poor design.

Sadly, I've read that they've dropped the feature in recent model years.

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Just for the heck of it I set my plasma TV to refresh at 48HZ when receiving 24p from my BD player. The only difference I noticed between that and the 60HZ setting was noticeable flicker. PQ was the same and I still didn't experience any significant judder.

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Just for the heck of it I set my plasma TV to refresh at 48HZ when receiving 24p from my BD player. The only difference I noticed between that and the 60HZ setting was noticeable flicker. PQ was the same and I still didn't experience any significant judder.

I definitely wouldn't go to a sub-60Hz refresh rate in an effort to avoid judder. As I said, I'm not particularly sensitive to judder and I'm rarely bothered by it even when I can sense a little of it; I do know that there are people who are driven to distraction by amounts of judder that I wouldn't even notice. It's just nice when I know that 2:3 pulldown isn't being done at all for 24p streaming content.

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post #7036 of 7485 Old 02-11-2015, 10:05 AM
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(Although it can happen for me (rarely) even without pausing the stream).
Ian
I have seen that on the PS3 and even the PS4 one time when I did not pause the stream and even something I was watching in 480p SD dropped down to godawful 240p. I think this is a major bug in certain Netflix players like game consoles (PS3, PS4 don't know about the Xbox One I don't own one) maybe hardware relate as something like this should have been fixed easily. Anyway I signed out of all devices (did sign back into devices I use after) and deleted the Netflix app off my PS4. I will still use the PS4 for playing DVD's and Blu-Rays (a real PITA without a proper remote) and play the occasional Pinball Arcade (the only game I don't get bored with) and that's it.

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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
For Blu-ray movies my 220 always outs 24p but if I stream a Netflix movie it does 60 and I have to manually select 24. I there a work around so it defaults to 24 for Netflix?
Same with my Sony S1200 and there is a noticeable flicker on Netflix but the BD's play at 24 fps (the TV will display the rate). Maybe their pricier players will do 24 fps on Netflix. But I don't recall any flicker using a Chromecast so it is probably doing 24 fps but the gateway wifi was too weak to stay connected and I'm waiting for the arrival of an access point to fix that.
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post #7038 of 7485 Old 02-11-2015, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Unfortunately, no. You only have to enable it once per session and it can be done in the library browser before actually playing anything; if you play multiple titles before exiting Netflix you don't have to do it again. Lamentably poor design.

Sadly, I've read that they've dropped the feature in recent model years.
That and apparently dropped Amazon as well. At least they(?) added Amazon Play List to the 220.

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Same with my Sony S1200 and there is a noticeable flicker on Netflix but the BD's play at 24 fps (the TV will display the rate). Maybe their pricier players will do 24 fps on Netflix.
Will have to check and see how the bedroom LG BP-540 handles Netflix 24p, a good player but it loads Amazon so slow as to make one think it is going backwards.

I was going to replace the BDT220 but now I will wait and see what UHD BD (that's 4K for some ) players bring to the table. May have to cut loose and get an OPPO.
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post #7039 of 7485 Old 02-11-2015, 02:47 PM
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That and apparently dropped Amazon as well. At least they(?) added Amazon Play List to the 220.

Yeah--after years of Amazon Instant Video without 5.1 sound or the Watchlist, they updated the BDT220 to a version of the "common" Amazon UI with support for both (like this with a couple of the panes containing text instead of cover art). It had to have been close to two years after product launch; I was shocked. Now of course I never use the thing except very infrequently to play a disc .

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post #7040 of 7485 Old 02-15-2015, 11:18 AM
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Will have to check and see how the bedroom LG BP-540 handles Netflix 24p, a good player but it loads Amazon so slow as to make one think it is going backwards.
Nothing I tried on the LG BP-540 would let me select 24p for Netflix.
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post #7041 of 7485 Old 02-18-2015, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Give it a rest, Uncle Willie . The 2 syllable "four-kay" rolls so much more easily off the tongue than "twen-tee-one-six-tee-pee". "ten-eh-tee-pee", though 4 syllables, was so much sexier, being two multiples of 10 smacked together, and coincidentally 3 times 360, a number used in the names of extreme sports tricks. Marketeers are going to keep pushing 4K as a name for 3840x2160 res and only a miniscule portion of the public will ever know of the existence of the DCI format.

I agree with you about the probable high initial costs of 4K BD players. I predict that initial demand will be really low. 1080 BD never achieved the adoption rate of DVDs and many people are still satisfied with the latter. 4K may be here to stay, but it's not because of consumer demand and ROI on UHD BD development is going to be very slow if they hit the market at a budget price.
i remember when a 40 inch plasma was priced at $33,000. i think this was 1998 or so. by 2025 expect a 8k tv for $500.
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post #7042 of 7485 Old 02-19-2015, 12:37 PM
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I watched an interesting effect on "The Last House on Cemetery Lane" where there was a regular drop frame about every two to three seconds. I've seen this in my experiments with trying to convert a video from 30 fps (29.97) to 24 fps (23.97) without using special software or a plugin to do this. I can't remember seeing this with any other film on NF but I've heard that it is expensive to have NF prepare your video and the producers of this low budget film may have opted for DIY and hence the results.
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Net neutrality becomes the law of the land


http://www.zdnet.com/article/net-neu...tag=TREc64629f

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Net neutrality becomes the law of the land


http://www.zdnet.com/article/net-neu...tag=TREc64629f
No telling how all this will play out. Guess we just have to wait and see what if any impact the new rules will have on we the great unwashed consumers.
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post #7045 of 7485 Old 02-26-2015, 02:16 PM
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Hopefully it won't make the Netflix deals illegal because I'm pretty sure that it will become much harder for customers to get higher bit rate video without private paths into the ISP's WANs.

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post #7046 of 7485 Old 02-26-2015, 03:41 PM
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Hopefully it won't make the Netflix deals illegal because I'm pretty sure that it will become much harder for customers to get higher bit rate video without private paths into the ISP's WANs.
I hope not. I can't deal with the terrible bit-starved 720p dropouts even going down to 480p like I had during the summer when all those "stupid" originals come back.

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Net neutrality becomes the law of the land


http://www.zdnet.com/article/net-neu...tag=TREc64629f
I guess you missed my thread. FCC Approves Strong Net Neutrality Rules



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Hopefully it won't make the Netflix deals illegal because I'm pretty sure that it will become much harder for customers to get higher bit rate video without private paths into the ISP's WANs.
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Originally Posted by reddice View Post
I hope not. I can't deal with the terrible bit-starved 720p dropouts even going down to 480p like I had during the summer when all those "stupid" originals come back.

ISP's will be in violation if slowdowns occur.

Quote:
Broadband providers may not impair or degrade lawful Internet traffic on the basis of content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices.

Broadband providers may not favor some lawful Internet traffic over other lawful traffic in exchange for consideration -- in other words, no "fast lanes." This rule also bans ISPs from prioritizing content and services of their affiliates.
Since the boards ruling will be challenged in Federal court, ISP's will probably continue to use paid prioritization for some time to come. So take a deep breath and relax, nothing is going to change, at least for now.

Ian

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Last edited by mailiang; 02-26-2015 at 04:19 PM.
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post #7048 of 7485 Old 02-26-2015, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
ISP's will be in violation if slowdowns occur.

Only if someone can prove that there's throttling going on. ISPs don't have to pay for ports large enough to accomodate streaming service traffic and they didn't.

Quote:
Since the boards ruling will be challenged in Federal court, ISP's will probably continue to use paid prioritization for some time to come.

Netflix isn't paying for "prioritization". They're paying for private ports (which removed traffic from the existing ports to the benefit of other services whose traffic enters through those) and for private paths into the ISP WANs so their traffic doesn't get switched through the open Internet. Once inside the ISP networks their traffic has the same priority as anyone else's.

If they aren't allowed to pay for private paths and ports into ISP WANs then things go back to the way that they were. The ISPs have no obligation to pay for port capacity to compensate for Netflix's mammoth demand and they won't. Netflix's traffic goes back to winding its way to you through multiple networks and multiple bottlenecks. Everything gets slower, not just Netflix, particularly if throttling isn't allowed.
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post #7049 of 7485 Old 02-26-2015, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Only if someone can prove that there's throttling going on. ISPs don't have to pay for ports large enough to accomodate streaming service traffic and they didn't..
Isn't that the point?


Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Netflix isn't paying for "prioritization". They're paying for private ports (which removed traffic from the existing ports to the benefit of other services whose traffic enters through those) and for private paths into the ISP WANs so their traffic doesn't get switched through the open Internet. Once inside the ISP networks their traffic has the same priority as anyone else's.

If they aren't allowed to pay for private paths and ports into ISP WANs then things go back to the way that they were. The ISPs have no obligation to pay for port capacity to compensate for Netflix's mammoth demand and they won't. Netflix's traffic goes back to winding its way to you through multiple networks and multiple bottlenecks. Everything gets slower, not just Netflix, particularly if throttling isn't allowed.
To quote Vaughn's article:

Quote:
This last provision serves notice to Comcast, Verzion, and other last-mile ISPs that they can no longer charge Netflix, or other content providers, for Internet access. It's a safe bet that these contracts are now on their way to the courts. In addition, even as Internet technologies evolve, ISPs are forbidden to harm consumers or edge providers.
Like I said, I am certain that the ruling will be challenged and IMO nothing will change, at least for now.

Ian
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Last edited by mailiang; 02-26-2015 at 09:15 PM.
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post #7050 of 7485 Old 02-26-2015, 11:31 PM
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It may be challenged, but I don't think it will come from an ISP. Both AT&T and Comcast need the FCC in their corner to push through mergers so they're not likely to piss them off by suing the agency.
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