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post #721 of 6628 Old 08-30-2010, 09:05 AM
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You should give them a call. The two times I have they've been great and very helpful. You can at least find out if they know this is a problem, if it's been reported and if the engineers are trying to fix it.

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post #722 of 6628 Old 09-01-2010, 09:33 PM
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Why is it that Star Trek, Iron Man, G.I Joe and the God fathers are all SD and not HD?
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post #723 of 6628 Old 09-01-2010, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by smjbh5 View Post

Why is it that Star Trek, Iron Man, G.I Joe and the God fathers are all SD and not HD?

Good question, it looks like all the Epix content is SD.
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post #724 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 07:36 AM
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Is anyone watching their Netflix streams on a 60" or larger display, preferably a plasma? I want to add a box to stream in my HT witha 65" panny plasma which is 1080p so I was wondering what anyone thought about the PQ was like with the upconverted 720p stream on a display that big. Netflix has said they may start streaming 1080p movies in the near future and since streaming movies is the ONLY thing that will really matter for viewing in my HT I just wanted to get some opinions. Roku just announced a pay cut for their products and that their XR version will be software upgraded to deliver 1080p in the near future while the new Sony Netbox SMP-N100 claims to be 1080p ready, according to a review at ZDNet. The new Apple TV looks great and since I have an iMac with wireless that works with the unit, that would be nice but they max out at 720 with no mention of future software upgrades. This will be the final piece to my HT upgrade and just want to make the best choice. thanks all.

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post #725 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by subavision212 View Post

Is anyone watching their Netflix streams on a 60" or larger display, preferably a plasma? I want to add a box to stream in my HT witha 65" panny plasma which is 1080p so I was wondering what anyone thought about the PQ was like with the upconverted 720p stream on a display that big. Netflix has said they may start streaming 1080p movies in the near future and since streaming movies is the ONLY thing that will really matter for viewing in my HT I just wanted to get some opinions. Roku just announced a pay cut for their products and that their XR version will be software upgraded to deliver 1080p in the near future while the new Sony Netbox SMP-N100 claims to be 1080p ready, according to a review at ZDNet. The new Apple TV looks great and since I have an iMac with wireless that works with the unit, that would be nice but they max out at 720 with no mention of future software upgrades. This will be the final piece to my HT upgrade and just want to make the best choice. thanks all.

I stream to a 120" screen, using a PS3 .. on HD material, it beats regular DVD .. if I were to buy a standalone box, I would look into the Sony Netbox ..

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post #726 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 08:08 AM
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actually now I'd look into Apple TV
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post #727 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by b_scott View Post

actually now I'd look into Apple TV

despite the fact that it only delivers 720 and no mention of being able to be upgraded via firmware in the future?

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post #728 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 08:42 AM
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despite the fact that it only delivers 720 and no mention of being able to be upgraded via firmware in the future?

upgraded to what?

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post #729 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by subavision212 View Post

despite the fact that it only delivers 720 and no mention of being able to be upgraded via firmware in the future?

Netflix only plays in 720p. And even when it's "1080p" it's not going to be able to match BD anyway - 720p scales very well.
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post #730 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 09:00 AM
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I happened to view some Netflix HD content yesterday on a 144" screen with a SIM2 projector and ISCO lens. IMO, that's too big for this content.

I think you'd do okay with 60-65", and probably with a smaller projection setup. I can definitely see the difference between the Netflix stream and a BD on my 50" plasma if I actively compare them, but I thought the stream was good enough to be enjoyable.

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post #731 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by JustMike View Post

I happened to view some Netflix HD content yesterday on a 144" screen with a SIM2 projector and ISCO lens. IMO, that's too big for this content.

I think you'd do okay with 60-65", and probably with a smaller projection setup. I can definitely see the difference between the Netflix stream and a BD on my 50" plasma if I actively compare them, but I thought the stream was good enough to be enjoyable.

Let's hope there is a difference .. .. as I mentioned earlier, I stream to 120" screen and on HD sources, it's pretty darn clean .. I'm on a 18mps connection, so I know that helps ..

Full 1080P is going to take some real bandwidth ..

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post #732 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

Let's hope there is a difference .. .. as I mentioned earlier, I stream to 120" screen and on HD sources, it's pretty darn clean .. I'm on a 18mps connection, so I know that helps ..

Full 1080P is going to take some real bandwidth ..

What do you consider to be "real" bandwidth? Both Microsoft and Vudu do 1080p streaming with digital surround in 9-10 Mbps.

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post #733 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

What do you consider to be "real" bandwidth? Both Microsoft and Vudu do 1080p streaming with digital surround in 9-10 Mbps.

15mps + .. I don't know what kind of compression they use .. my comment is based on the bitrate of an average BD

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post #734 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post

15mps + .. I don't know what kind of compression they use .. my comment is based on the bitrate of an average BD

Observe the table on this page at Vudu's site. It states that Vudu HDX to streaming devices requires 4.5 to 9 Mbps. It is stupidly hard to find the connection speed requirements for 1080p Zune streaming video--all I can find is (from this page):
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Typically, you need a network connection of at least 4 Mbps to view HD content in 1080p.

I'm pretty sure that 4 Mbps is a minimum speed for SD Zune video. MS issued a PR back in early June 2009, 5 months before the service launched, in which they said that 1080p would require an 8-10 Mbps connection (see here). One assumes that Netflix, when and if they get to 1080p, will have similar speed requirements

Neither 1080p Zune video or Vudu HDX will fully replicate the experience of the best BD video with lossless sound as played back on very good equipment, but Joe Average definitely won't be able to tell the difference. I haven't seen HDX but people rave about it; I have watched 1080p streaming Zune Video and it's excellent.

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post #735 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Neither 1080p Zune video or Vudu HDX will fully replicate the experience of the best BD video with lossless sound as played back on the very good equipment, but Joe Average definitely won't be able to tell the difference. I haven't seen HDX but people rave about it; I have watched 1080p streaming Zune Video and it's excellent.

Agree. I noticed the difference with the Zune and BD, but not very much. I'd be more than happy (I'd be ecstatic actually) if Netflix offered it, and frankly, I'd completely abandon feeling the need to watch some movies on BD like I currently do (that's not saying I would abandon BD, but I currently forego streaming in favor of BD for certain dark/special effects/5.1-heavy titles, and would no longer feel the need to do so)

My experience with the Zune offering is here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1191057

If it wasn't so expensive (comparatively), I'd use it more. As it is, Netflix still offers the most bang for the buck. For the price, I can live with the drawbacks that NF streaming currently has.
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post #736 of 6628 Old 09-02-2010, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

upgraded to what?

Sony's new SMP-N100 is ready to play 1080p content whenever it begins (if Netflix starts to stream 1080 which it says it will) and Roku announced that their XR unit will be upgraded via firmware to also output 1080p. Both seem like better choices to be ready for future changes in streaming instead of maybe having to buy a NEW Apple TV that will do the same.

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post #737 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by subavision212 View Post

Sony's new SMP-N100 is ready to play 1080p content whenever it begins (if Netflix starts to stream 1080 which it says it will) and Roku announced that their XR unit will be upgraded via firmware to also output 1080p. Both seem like better choices to be ready for future changes in streaming instead of maybe having to buy a NEW Apple TV that will do the same.

The NEW Apple TV won't do 1080p.

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post #738 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

The NEW Apple TV won't do 1080p.

While many devices and services offer 1080/p video, AFAIK, ONLY one does NATIVE mode 1080/p/24 and that is Blu-ray. Many devices can do inverses telecine and output the video 1080/p/24. The result can vary from very poor to excellent. With Blu-ray there is no need for inverses telecine, of course you need a display device that can accept 1080/p/24 as an input.
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post #739 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

While many devices and services offer 1080/p video, AFAIK, ONLY one does NATIVE mode 1080/p/24 and that is Blu-ray. Many devices can do inverses telecine and output the video 1080/p/24. The result can vary from very poor to excellent. With Blu-ray there is no need for inverses telecine, of course you need a display device that can accept 1080/p/24 as an input.

Inverse telecine of what? If the source is 1080p/24 and the device is capable outputting 1080p24 and the monitor is capable of accepting 1080p24, why would inverse telecine be involved? Many monitors more than a few years old cannot accept a 1080p24 signal (or any 24 fps signal, for that matter) and the device will have to process it to turn it into 1080p60 for those, if there's a 1080p24 path for a 1080p24 source it will be decoded as 1080p24 and sent to the monitor that way.

Hell, many of the devices capable of playing 1080p24 streams are BD players or the television with a refresh rate divisible by 24 (120, 240, etc).

If you have something that would dispute that for every device, please give a link.

In any case, Apple TV cannot deal with a 1080 encoding (at any framerate) or output at 1080x1920.

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post #740 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

If the source is 1080p/24

That is the whole point of contention! How many sources are available, other than Blu-ray, that are 1080/p/24?
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post #741 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

That is the whole point of contention! How many sources are available, other than Blu-ray, that are 1080/p/24?

AFAIK, most rentable and purchaseable streams and downloads created anytime in the last few years are encoded at 24 fps progressive if the source was 24fps, whether 1280x720 or 1920x1080. It's congruent with filmic sources and saves bandwidth versus p60 or i60 encodings. The playback device must deal with whatever needs to be done to output it to its attached monitor.

Netflix says that they encode TV-sourced streams to p30. I got an HD movie download to TiVo from Amazon which was encoded 1080i60. Except for the recently issued TiVo Premiere, no TiVo can output p24 so its possible that they can't decode and convert it.

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post #742 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

AFAIK, most rentable and purchaseable streams and downloads created anytime in the last few years are encoded at 24 fps progressive if the source was 24fps, whether 1280x720 or 1920x1080.

Regardless of how a source may be created 24P, 30I, etc., the actual rate delivered by IPTV is an unknown to the end user. The video output rate from a device can be completely different from the supplied source. Much of the IPTV that I watch has a frame rate so low as to look like stop action animation to me. The same is true of some cable fare as well as programming via pizza dish.
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post #743 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

Regardless of how a source may be created 24P, 30I, etc., the actual rate delivered by IPTV is an unknown to the end user. The video output rate from a device can be completely different from the supplied source. Much of the IPTV that I watch has a frame rate so low as to look like stop action animation to me. The same is true of some cable fare as well as programming via pizza dish.

I can't dispute your experience, and I have to agree that many Netflix streams I've watched are somewhat juddery, despite being supposedly encoded at 24p from a 24p source. I can't discern any of this in the "instant-on" 1080p streaming Zune video content I've watched, which always looks sharp and buttery smooth (if there's bandwidth on your connection for the HD encodings). I haven't seen it, but I've heard that Vudu HDX is the same.

This started with me stating the Apple TV can neither deal with or output 1080 (p24 or otherwise) any which way or how and that's true. I have some HD purchased TV episodes from iTunes on my PC (some episodes of Mad Men I'd missed) and they're 720p24. I believe that all HD iTunes video is encoded 720p24 and all SD is 480p24. Netflix has indicated that they're headed towards 1080p encodings and I doubt that Apple TV will be able to handle them if and when they arrive.

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post #744 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I have to agree that many Netflix streams I've watched are somewhat juddery, despite being supposedly encoded at 24p from a 24p source.

Your not watching a file transfer, IIRC, when you watch something via IPTV it is encoded in real time from a file on their servers. The encoder can dynamically make many video adjustments and is one of the reasons the picture quality can vary so much.
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post #745 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 03:22 PM
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I'd be hugely surprised if it were dynamically encoding, versus possibly switching between a few pre-encoded streams at varying bit rates based upon the connection quality. The CPU resources required to do dynamic encoding for every streamed program would be enormous.

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post #746 of 6628 Old 09-03-2010, 03:51 PM
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I'd be hugely surprised if it were dynamically encoding, versus possibly switching between a few pre-encoded streams at varying bit rates based upon the connection quality. The CPU resources required to do dynamic encoding for every streamed program would be enormous.

I thought it was already established that's exactly what they do, switch between various bitrate pre-encoded streams to suit the available bandwidth.

I'd be extremely surprised as well if Netflix is encoding this stuff on the fly.
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post #747 of 6628 Old 09-04-2010, 07:45 AM
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I'd be hugely surprised if it were dynamically encoding, versus possibly switching between a few pre-encoded streams at varying bit rates based upon the connection quality.

You are thinking in terms of a linear compression encoder. One would assume IPTV that Netflix is using is bidirectional, that is to say the decoded can talk back to the source server and tell it certain parameters.

Multiple fixed encodes also sounds like a reasonable way to do IPTV. As I said earlier, it is very obvious to me many are using a very low frame rate.
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post #748 of 6628 Old 09-04-2010, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

You are thinking in terms of a linear compression encoder. One would assume IPTV that Netflix is using is bidirectional, that is to say the decoded can talk back to the source server and tell it certain parameters.

Multiple fixed encodes also sounds like a reasonable way to do IPTV. As I said earlier, it is very obvious to me many are using a very low frame rate.

What happens in these streaming network VOD systems is that they keep multiple encodings of the each title at different bit rates. They continously test the bandwidth available on the connection to your player, which may fluctuate. If available bandwidth decreases below what's necessary for the encoding currently in use, the server software selects a lower bit rate encoding and continues streaming with that; if the bandwidth should increase, it moves to a higher bit rate encoding. The best systems, like Zune Video, do this dynamic encoding switch seamlessly, without pause. You may notice the decreased or increased picture quality as these switches occur. Some of the Netflix players, like the Xbox one, try their best to make these transitions seamless, but they sometimes fail, and they put up a message telling you that they're rebuffering an alternate encoding (not in those words ).

Netflix keeps up to 6 encodings of every title, 4 standard def ones and, for a subset of titles, two 720p ones. They also keep a separate set of 4 or 6 encodings of each title in AVC with DD2.0 sound for the Playstation (all of the others use VC-1 encodings with stereo WMA sound). I think that they keep yet another set of encodings for the PC, being VC-1/WMA in a different format for a seamless-encoding-switching (aka "smooth streaming") web-based player for Windows and Macs.

To judge by the quality meter, there are at least five encodings for every HD streaming Zune Video title, 3 SD ones, one 720p and one 1080p. Every SD Zune title seems to have 4 encodings.

I tend to associate IPTV with systems which carry multiple channels of linear programming, just like cable or satellite. If you're watching one of these linear channels, you can't fast forward (though they probably all keep a local buffer of the linear stream from the point that you "tuned" it and you can FF or RW through that buffer). No doubt IPTV systems generally offer some VOD content in addition to linear channels, but I've never heard anyone other than you apply the term "IPTV" to these VOD-only services.

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post #749 of 6628 Old 09-04-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

No doubt IPTV systems generally offer some VOD content in addition to linear channels, but I've never heard anyone other than you apply the term "IPTV" to these VOD-only services.

I'm not saying IPTV VOD is a correct term, I use it to identify any video supplied via the internet.

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post #750 of 6628 Old 09-04-2010, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post

I'm not saying IPTV VOD is a correct term, I use it to identify any video supplied via the internet.

And I'm not claiming that you use IPTV incorrectly. It's just that in reading freakin' reams of stuff about these specific services, including job description for positions to work on them (Vudu, Zune, Amazon, Netflix, etc), you are the first and only person I've come across who described them with that term. Most people just say "streaming video".

Mike Scott (XBL: MikeHellion, PSN: MarcHellion)

"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill
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