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post #7501 of 7552 Old 07-05-2015, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westly-C View Post
Syfy's Defiance is shot with 4k cameras? I'm shocked to learn that, as it's picture quality over digital cable has never looked that impressive to me. Perhaps it looks better on blu ray?
One thing producers discovered is that shooting 4K they can zoom in on shots if they need to during post. I've heard directors talk about liking that benefit on some of the commentaries.
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post #7502 of 7552 Old 07-05-2015, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
One thing producers discovered is that shooting 4K they can zoom in on shots if they need to during post. I've heard directors talk about liking that benefit on some of the commentaries.
I just added this to an earlier post: 5 reasons to shoot in 4k


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post #7503 of 7552 Old 07-05-2015, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
My set has a pixel direct setting that accepts 4:4:4 video. When viewing a BD recently, the disc info banner displayed the chroma subsampling as YCBCR 4:4:4 which is the player's current setting.
That is just the players video processor output. 8, 4:2:0 (Rec. 709) is the format on the disc and is converted by the player. The player will probably output YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2, RGB and RGB enhanced.
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post #7504 of 7552 Old 07-05-2015, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
One thing producers discovered is that shooting 4K they can zoom in on shots if they need to during post. I've heard directors talk about liking that benefit on some of the commentaries.
Well now that we are moving to 4k they better start shooting in 8k
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post #7505 of 7552 Old 07-05-2015, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
That is just the players video processor output. 8, 4:2:0 (Rec. 709) is the format on the disc and is converted by the player. The player will probably output YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2, RGB and RGB enhanced.
That's why I also posted:

Quote:
4:2:0 is not compatible with HDMI so they also offer a 4:4:2 and a RGB conversion setting.
Setting my BD player to YCbCr 4:4:4 and my TV to pixel direct, seems to give me the best PQ, since my TV only has to convert 4:4:4 to RGB. If I set the player to 4:4:2, my set would have to convert it an additional step to 4:4:4 and then RGB. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe many flat panel displays are able to faithfully receive RGB direct from the BD player. Unlike a gaming console, with the RGB settings, the player would probably have to convert it back to YCbCr anyway.

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post #7506 of 7552 Old 07-05-2015, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Setting my BD player to YCbCr 4:4:4 and my TV to pixel direct, seems to give me the best PQ, since my TV only has to convert 4:4:4 to RGB.
Think of it as:

HD video [Blu-ray, satellite, cable, IPTV, ATSC, etc.] (SMPTE standards*, Rec 709) = YCbCr, 16 to 235 levels (steps)

RGB (computer) = RGB, 0 to 255 levels (steps)

Blu-ray to most modern HD video monitors/TV's should be set YCbCr (4:4:4 or 4:2:2) as dictated by the monitor)

Blu-ray to most computer monitors should be set RGB

*See SMPTE 274M for details
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post #7507 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 12:53 AM
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We watched 'A Most Wanted Man' tonight.

Started on Netflix but movie was cropped to full screen. Tried Amazon Prime Instant and was original aspect ratio so we watched there with the added benefit of the ~10 Mbps 1080P Amazon stream vs Netflix 5.8 Mbps 1080P stream.

Would probably have stayed on Netflix if it had been the correct aspect ratio as their 5.8 Mbps 1080P generally looks pretty good (although not quite as good as Amazon 1080P)

Great movie by the way - based on Le Carre book and must have been one of the last Phillip Seymour Hoffman movies also with Robin Wright, Willem Dafoe and Racel McAdams
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post #7508 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post
We watched 'A Most Wanted Man' tonight.

Started on Netflix but movie was cropped to full screen. Tried Amazon Prime Instant and was original aspect ratio so we watched there with the added benefit of the ~10 Mbps 1080P Amazon stream vs Netflix 5.8 Mbps 1080P stream.

Would probably have stayed on Netflix if it had been the correct aspect ratio as their 5.8 Mbps 1080P generally looks pretty good (although not quite as good as Amazon 1080P)

Great movie by the way - based on Le Carre book and must have been one of the last Phillip Seymour Hoffman movies also with Robin Wright, Willem Dafoe and Racel McAdams
I saw it some time ago on Blu-ray. One of Hoffman's best performances. I just don't understand why Netflix displays cropped wide screen content. It makes no sense.

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post #7509 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post
We watched 'A Most Wanted Man' tonight.

Started on Netflix but movie was cropped to full screen. Tried Amazon Prime Instant and was original aspect ratio so we watched there with the added benefit of the ~10 Mbps 1080P Amazon stream vs Netflix 5.8 Mbps 1080P stream.

Would probably have stayed on Netflix if it had been the correct aspect ratio as their 5.8 Mbps 1080P generally looks pretty good (although not quite as good as Amazon 1080P)

Great movie by the way - based on Le Carre book and must have been one of the last Phillip Seymour Hoffman movies also with Robin Wright, Willem Dafoe and Racel McAdams
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I saw it some time ago on Blu-ray. One of Hoffman's best performances. I just don't understand why Netflix displays cropped wide screen content. It makes no sense.
Most of the films I have seen on Netflix have been shown in their original aspect ratio. I watched A Most Wanted Man and because I saw no signs of cropping assumed that it had been shot using 1.85:1.

HBO routinely crops 2.35:1 films to 1.69:1 with results that are sometimes pretty bad. Oh, well, at least we no longer have to put up with the butchery of having 2.35:1 films cropped to 4:3. The results of that sort of mayhem are always ugly.
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post #7510 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
I watched A Most Wanted Man and because I saw no signs of cropping assumed that it had been shot using 1.85:1.....Oh, well, at least we no longer have to put up with the butchery of having 2.35:1 films cropped to 4:3. The results of that sort of mayhem are always ugly.
A Most Wanted Man had an aspect ratio of 2:35:1. Cropping it to 4:3? Now that's a lot of picture lost, which is exactly what you will experience when watching it on Netflix.



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post #7511 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 12:54 PM
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Netflix probably doesn't do the cropping. They get it cropped from the studio. If it's up to Netflix they probably won't crop. I learned about 15 years ago contacting a DVD publisher about a title that had the movie 4:3 but the extras 16:9. The responded that the studio supplied the movie 4:3 but the director supplied the extras.

Blame studio obliviots.
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post #7512 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by undecided View Post
We watched 'A Most Wanted Man' tonight.

Started on Netflix but movie was cropped to full screen. Tried Amazon Prime Instant and was original aspect ratio so we watched there with the added benefit of the ~10 Mbps 1080P Amazon stream vs Netflix 5.8 Mbps 1080P stream.
................
This has always been the case with some titles from all the streaming services. Some titles will be cropped on Amazon and in the original Aspect ratio on Netflix. While some titles will be cropped on Netflix and in the original aspect ratio on Amazon. And then the encode can change later too. And switch from cropped to original aspect ratio or switch from original aspect ratio to cropped. As well as the audio options changing from stereo to multi-channel. Or from multi-channel to stereo. All this also happens on Vudu, XBL, PSN, etc. too.

As was mentioned it's up to the studios. The streaming providers can only encode what they are given.

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post #7513 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 02:10 PM
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I hate when they crop movies. It was worse when they use to pan and scan everything to 4:3. I will still watch a cropped movie but not a movie pan and scan to 4:3.

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post #7514 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 02:39 PM
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A Most Wanted Man had an aspect ratio of 2:35:1. Cropping it to 4:3? Now that's a lot of picture lost, which is exactly what you will experience when watching it on Netflix.
I couldn't agree more that a picture cropped from 2.35:1 to 4:3 is horrible. Nevertheless, it seems to me that cropping from 2.35:1 to 16:9 while undesirable is usually not an unmitigated disaster. The amount of the picture cropped out for 4:3 viewing is exponentially greater than what is lost for 16:9 viewing. Don't get me wrong, I don't like cropping and simply will not watch a widescreen film that has been cropped to 4:3. I do think however that cropping for a 16:9 display can be lived with. If I didn't I would have to cancel my HBO subscription.
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post #7515 of 7552 Old 07-11-2015, 07:37 PM
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I couldn't agree more that a picture cropped from 2.35:1 to 4:3 is horrible. Nevertheless, it seems to me that cropping from 2.35:1 to 16:9 while undesirable is usually not an unmitigated disaster. ...
Since getting my first HDTV (16:9) TV, like you I had the impression that cropping a 2.35:1 feature to 1.78:1 (16:9) wasn't quite as destructive as cropping that same 2.35:1 feature down to 1.33:1 (4:3).

Doing some simple calculations, this is how much picture is lost by trimming the sides or pan-and-scan to fit on 16:9 or 4:3:

Title's OARtrimmed to 16:9 TVtrimmed to 4:3 TV
2.35:124% lost43% lost
1.85:14% lost28% lost
1.78:10% lost25% lost

(OAR = Original Aspect Ratio)

Losing a quarter of the picture due to trimming 2.35:1 to a 16:9 screen still loses a significant part of the picture, but not as bad as losing almost half. It does depend on what the Director has put in the part of the scene that gets clipped, and for some movies that could be critical.

When I had a small (24-in) standard (4:3) TV, I didn't like letterbox because the image would be so small. Now with a decent-sized (50-in) HD (16:9) TV, I prefer watching in OAR since this would present the movie closer to the Director's original intent without loss of what the Director intentionally filmed. And because of that, my viewing preference starts with Blu-ray, which I consider my best chance of seeing the movie in the OAR short of actually wasting an afternoon to drive to an actual theater. Then streaming. Then (for newer titles) DVD. And somewhere in there is cable, though it varies quite a bit between channels, though if the only way I can see a title is from a cable channel, I will still watch it that way.

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post #7516 of 7552 Old 07-12-2015, 06:47 AM
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^^^^ We agree that any kind of cropping is undesirable. Although I like HBO's program lineup well enough to stick with them, I still resent their policy of cropping 2.35:1 films to 16:9. What the hell, though, nobody pays attention to us nerds.
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post #7517 of 7552 Old 07-12-2015, 09:12 AM
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The question remains, regardless who is the culprit, if a film has a 2.35:1 ratio why crop it to 4:3 for streaming? It's a disservice to the viewer and it makes no sense. I'm certain that film directors wouldn't be happy having the studios pulling that crap.


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post #7518 of 7552 Old 07-12-2015, 10:50 AM
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Great movie by the way - based on Le Carre book and must have been one of the last Phillip Seymour Hoffman movies also with Robin Wright, Willem Dafoe and Racel McAdams
May have been but I can not deal with content made using handheld cameras. It just screams "made on the cheap" and all the motion gets on my nerves so it gets ejected (BD) after the first several minutes. I really like Hoffman and the others but just can't handle the style.
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post #7519 of 7552 Old 07-12-2015, 10:53 AM
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May have been but I can not deal with content made using handheld cameras. It just screams "made on the cheap" and all the motion gets on my nerves so it gets ejected (BD) after the first several minutes. I really like Hoffman and the others but just can't handle the style.
I agree. Even some TV shows will have stupid episodes that are like that. Leverage and Psych have one episode that I was getting motion sickness. I still watched it but I so wanted to FF over most of it.

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post #7520 of 7552 Old 07-12-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gwsat View Post
I couldn't agree more that a picture cropped from 2.35:1 to 4:3 is horrible. Nevertheless, it seems to me that cropping from 2.35:1 to 16:9 while undesirable is usually not an unmitigated disaster. The amount of the picture cropped out for 4:3 viewing is exponentially greater than what is lost for 16:9 viewing. Don't get me wrong, I don't like cropping and simply will not watch a widescreen film that has been cropped to 4:3. I do think however that cropping for a 16:9 display can be lived with. If I didn't I would have to cancel my HBO subscription.
I saw the movie on Netflix but now am wondering was it "cropped" or "full frame?" Sometimes it is the latter since they crop to 2:35:1 from a full frame. Usually a cropped 2:35:1 looks a little claustrophobic in composition.
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post #7521 of 7552 Old 07-12-2015, 03:23 PM
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The question remains, regardless who is the culprit, if a film has a 2.35:1 ratio why crop it to 4:3 for streaming? It's a disservice to the viewer and it makes no sense. I'm certain that film directors wouldn't be happy having the studios pulling that crap.


Ian
But this is nothing new. It was going on back in the VHS days, decades ago. Your average person wants a movie to fill the entire screen. Whether they are viewing an old 4:3 aspect ratio TV or a 16:9 aspect ratio TV makes no difference. The masses want the screen filled.

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post #7522 of 7552 Old 07-12-2015, 03:34 PM
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But this is nothing new. It was going on back in the VHS days, decades ago. Your average person wants a movie to fill the entire screen. Whether they are viewing an old 4:3 aspect ratio TV or a 16:9 aspect ratio TV makes no difference. The masses want the screen filled.
2.35:1 to 4.3:1 is rather extreme. How many people are actually watching on full screen sets today? The majority of content today is presented in widescreen, regardless of the source. (ie: broadcast, streaming, disc..)

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post #7523 of 7552 Old 07-13-2015, 09:16 AM
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2.35:1 to 4.3:1 is rather extreme. How many people are actually watching on full screen sets today? The majority of content today is presented in widescreen, regardless of the source. (ie: broadcast, streaming, disc..)

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I read an article a few months back that claimed 20% of the populace still used a 4:3 TV daily .. I'd tend to think that's fairly accurate ..


As to the cropping issue, I've believed since the advent of the 16:9 set, just show it in it's original format, no pan and scan, etc .. and if the Consumer needs/wants a fully filled screen, let them use whatever zoom function their TV may be equipped with .. of course, that assumes the consumer knows what their TV can do ..
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May have been but I can not deal with content made using handheld cameras. It just screams "made on the cheap" and all the motion gets on my nerves so it gets ejected (BD) after the first several minutes. I really like Hoffman and the others but just can't handle the style.

I'll add .. anything that bills itself as "found footage" I won't bother to look into any further .. "The Blair Witch Project" I think started that trend, and ended it for me ..
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post #7525 of 7552 Old 07-13-2015, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendell R. Breland View Post
I can not deal with content made using handheld cameras. It just screams "made on the cheap" and all the motion gets on my nerves so it gets ejected (BD) after the first several minutes. I really like Hoffman and the others but just can't handle the style.
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I'll add .. anything that bills itself as "found footage" I won't bother to look into any further .. "The Blair Witch Project" I think started that trend, and ended it for me ..
I have the same problem. It gives me a headache. However, I don't recall having an issue with A Most Wanted Man when I watched it on Blu-Ray.

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post #7526 of 7552 Old 07-13-2015, 12:20 PM
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I have the same problem. It gives me a headache. However, I don't recall having an issue with A Most Wanted Man when I watched it on Blu-Ray.

Ian

Well, I may be missing out on something worthwhile by discounting "found footage" material, but I just can't stand to watch it .. I think it has to do with the fact that it's really not "found footage" and just seems so contrived ..

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post #7527 of 7552 Old 07-13-2015, 12:58 PM
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I'll add .. anything that bills itself as "found footage" I won't bother to look into any further .. "The Blair Witch Project" I think started that trend, and ended it for me ..
I watched Cloverfield (another "found footage" movie) in a theater/pub (viewing distance / screen height close to 3.5) and had a headache at the end of the movie. A couple of guys to my left had been drinking beer during the movie so I said, "Maybe I should take up drinking. This movie left me with a headache." One of them replied, "Drinking didn't help."

A few years later I watched it when it was on TV (viewing distance / screen height about 5). It couldn't have been that long ago since I had the 32-in HDTV at that time. I still had a headache at the end of the movie but not as bad as when I saw it on the "big screen".

There are also movies where, during an action scene, I yell out (at home), "Haven't you heard of a tripod?" because the camera is shaking all over. (Example: The Rock.)

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Sony BDP-S3100 Blu-ray player, Roku N1000 (original model), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (120Mbps/12Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Preferred Plus), DVD/VHS player.
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post #7528 of 7552 Old 07-13-2015, 03:44 PM
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I read an article a few months back that claimed 20% of the populace still used a 4:3 TV daily .. I'd tend to think that's fairly accurate ..
From this March 2015 press release from Leichtman Research Group based on a survey ran in January 2015, 81% of US households have at least one HDTV. 65% of all TVs used in US households are HDTVs.

My thoughts: I think it is fairly safe to say, within a couple of percent, that about 19% of US households have only 4:3 TVs, and that about 35% of TVs that are used are 4:3 TVs. The difference, 16%, would be secondary 4:3 TVs.

My recollection is that most SD TVs were CRTs (at least as of the last time I was TV shopping before the Digital TV transition) and those CRTs didn't have the zoom control that could take letterbox and zoom it in to fill the screen and clip the sides, unlike when the Digital TV transition happened so that all TVs have scalers built in (since the TV signals can have a variety of video formats, from 480i all the way up to 720p or 1080i), and then various zoom options are almost free. So a good portion of those with 4:3 TVs just don't have the zoom controls that those of us with HDTVs have gotten used to.


If this was a cable TV service thread, one could go on to state that many have decided to not pay for HD service so there are many HDTVs being fed an SD signal. Even I, with only HDTVs in the house and paying for HD cable service, end up with about a third of what I watch in 4:3 (e.g., classic TV shows, old movies, and a few not-so-old movies that end up being available only on SD channels).

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Sony BDP-S3100 Blu-ray player, Roku N1000 (original model), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (120Mbps/12Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Preferred Plus), DVD/VHS player.
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post #7529 of 7552 Old 07-13-2015, 04:06 PM
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Neither of the local cable systems (Cox and TWC) has a charge for HD. If you pay for the tier containing a channel, you can view both the HD and SD versions and rental fees are the same for SD and HD equipment. What surprises me is that there are about 25 analog channels on the cable with Cox. That's a 150 MHz chunk of bandwidth.

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"Think of the cable company as a group of terrorist (sic)." -- hookbill

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post #7530 of 7552 Old 07-14-2015, 08:37 AM
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Neither of the local cable systems (Cox and TWC) has a charge for HD. If you pay for the tier containing a channel, you can view both the HD and SD versions and rental fees are the same for SD and HD equipment. What surprises me is that there are about 25 analog channels on the cable with Cox. That's a 150 MHz chunk of bandwidth.

Myself, I miss that concurrent analog feed that Charter eliminated a year or so ago .. their logic being elimination of CATV theft, with the real reason being they want us to rent additional boxes .. sure, it was sub par quality, and I'm sure there was some signal splitting going on with apartment complexes / etc, but as a paying customer, it was kinda nice to be able to use the TV tuner to get a few channels fed out to my old CRT TV on the deck or the TV in the guest bedroom ..


I'm sure Cox will eventually turn them off as well ..

Uncle Willie


Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
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