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post #8551 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by tezster View Post
This is probably a stupid question, but here goes... if NF can provide data streams for 4K content, then they should also be able to provide a higher bitrate Full HD/1080p stream. Obviously, anyone who's done any type of a comparison between the HD streaming quality of NF and the same content on blu-ray can see there's definitely room for improvement.
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Originally Posted by archer75 View Post
Video quality for netflix is pretty good. No, not BD, but still pretty good. I get the feeling they aren't using HEVC. Do we know how they are encoding their streams currently?
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I know one thing, the UHD stuff looks great on my 65". Stuff like Longmire, Daredevil, etc...
Depends on the content. I was watching Medici:Masters of Florence in 1080p on my plasma, and it was as close to BD as you can get. It actually looks better then some of the BD's I've rented, and I rent 2 to 3 a week.

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post #8552 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 08:20 AM
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Sure, content has bearing like the way it was filmed, but it is obvious when you stream something at Netflix at 1080p vs 2160p. It isnt as much the resolution as it is the bandwidth allocated.

Spectral really could have used a 2160p tier, the 1080p version was OK but not as good as the Netflix Original stuff. It had been so long since I watched something that wasn't UHD 5.1 on Netflix, I was a little surprised it stood out so much.
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post #8553 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I know one thing, the UHD stuff looks great on my 65". Stuff like Longmire, Daredevil, etc...
Yep, I felt like I could crawl into the scenes with "Marco Polo" .. maybe I'll live long enough to see the Holodeck ..

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post #8554 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 10:52 AM
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Max requirement for 4K on Netflix is 24 Mbps. Shouldn't need much more than that for anything else. That's probably for h264 encodes. H265 and VP9 require less bandwidth.
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post #8555 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Max requirement for 4K on Netflix is 24 Mbps. Shouldn't need much more than that for anything else. That's probably for h264 encodes. H265 and VP9 require less bandwidth.
Yeah that's what had me thinking netflix hasn't stepped up to HEVC. My own encodes using H.265, with the HD audio track, come in at a much lower bitrate and look noticeably better.

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post #8556 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Sure, content has bearing like the way it was filmed, but it is obvious when you stream something at Netflix at 1080p vs 2160p. It isnt as much the resolution as it is the bandwidth allocated.
Obviously. it also depends on the size and quality of the display as well. Under controlled lighting conditions, the Vizio 1080p LCD in my bedroom can not offer the same impact that my Panasonic plasma provides, even when viewing some of Netflix's best content.

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post #8557 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Max requirement for 4K on Netflix is 24 Mbps. Shouldn't need much more than that for anything else. That's probably for h264 encodes. H265 and VP9 require less bandwidth.
Their only 2160p encodes are in HEVC. On their old fix bit rate ladder they were at 8000-, 10000-, 12000- and 16000 Kbps; now that they're doing custom bit rate ladders those may vary. I've had reason to suspect that they're now using HEVC for all encodes served to HEVC capable devices. (It'd be really nice if you could get overlay that you can get on PC from other devices. They're allowing PCs to stream 4K now but you have to have a 7th gen Intel processor with the capability to handle the DRM that they use ).

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post #8558 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Their only 2160p encodes are in HEVC. On their old fix bit rate ladder they were at 8000-, 10000-, 12000- and 16000 Kbps; now that they're doing custom bit rate ladders those may vary. I've had reason to suspect that they're now using HEVC for all encodes served to HEVC capable devices. (It'd be really nice if you could get overlay that you can get on PC from other devices. They're allowing PCs to stream 4K now but you have to have a 7th gen Intel processor with the capability to handle the DRM that they use ).
HEVC comes with royalties attached so most likely that's why they would use AVC High Profile for 4K. They're probably waiting for AV1 due to release this spring from the Alliance for Open Media. That's VP10 no royalties attached. If you read the articles on streamingmedia.com you will notice that the HEVC group and MPEG-LA have been changing terms or they will lose out.

A couple days after getting my 4K Roku TV Netflix put up a pop-up saying that for $2 more a month I could have 4K. At the moment I don't have 24 Mbps just 12 but I'll fix that at the first of the year. Roku has both HEVC and VP9 support. I also just picked one of those inexpensive 4K action cams and have been doing some testing. Those clips are h264 at around 65 Mbps.

Here's what Netflix has been doing with VP9 which suggests they'll probably NOT do HEVC for 4K.
http://techblog.netflix.com/2016/12/...codes-for.html

BTW, most of the shows I've been watching lately on Hulu have been 1080p most streaming at 4-5.5 Mbps. Currently their 4K support is for limited devices.
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post #8559 of 8822 Old 12-20-2016, 03:25 PM
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Netflix creates encodes to produce several of what they call "encoding profiles", sets of video and audio encodings stored in specific file formats with specific DRM. On slide 5 of this powerpoint presentation they delivered at a conference in May of 2014, you can see that they have a profile they call CE4-DASH with HEVC video, HE-AAC stereo and DD+ 5.1 sound. They discuss their experience with HEVC later in that presentation at slide 31. They compared the very mature AVC encoder that they were using against fairly new HEVC encoders and found relatively little advantage at that point but were anticipating great things in the future; it states "Most all new dev is in 4K/HEVC". That was over 2 years ago. Recently they posted "A Large-Scale Comparison of x264, x265, and libvpx - a Sneak Peek" in their blog in which they stated they were seeing 50% lower bit rates from both HEVC and VP9 versus their AVC encoder, with HEVC being somewhat lower than VP9 in resolutions lower than 1080p.

Their use of HEVC for 4K encoding is why 4K televisions released in 2013 cannot stream Netflix 4K (other than at least one Samsung with an update-able electronics box). HEVC decoding didn't become common in 4K TVs until 2014.

Netflix's techblog entry "High Quality Video Encoding at Scale" from almost exactly 1 year ago states:

Quote:
At Netflix we stream to a heterogenous set of viewing devices. This requires a number of codec profiles: VC1, H.264/AVC Baseline, H.264/AVC Main and HEVC.

Netflix has been encoding in HEVC since February of 2014, AFAICT. It's possible that they'll transition into using VP9 for the royalty-free saving it represents in the far future. They are using it to encode their new mobile downloads (though not streaming to mobile devices, yet). But even when they are streaming VP9 they're going to have to continue to encode in HEVC for "legacy" 4K devices without VP9 decoding (like my 2014 Vizio P-Series TV), just as they continue to encode in VC1 with WMA audio for really old devices that are still in use.

A quote from that May 2014 presentation whose slides I cited above, posted in "Streaming Media East: Netflix Making the Move to HEVC, but Efficiency Gains Lag" on blog.streamingmedia.com:

Quote:
“We now have the ability to move 4K assets through our workflow almost as fast as 2K assets,” said Ronca, adding that the “almost” was based on the fact that high-efficiency video coding (HEVC) take a bit longer than advanced video coding (AVC).

(There are tons of mentions of Netflix's 4K encodings being HEVC in the online tech press, but I chose only to cite things said by Netflix itself).
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post #8560 of 8822 Old 12-21-2016, 12:55 PM
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FYI, the difference between using VP9 for mobile, web browser and TVs is just a different set of profiles. The problem is that Apple has a NIH thing when it comes to Google (or what I refer to as "corporate war") and won't support VP9 or maybe even AV1. When you work in world class software development then you try to be as pro-active as possible to reduce support calls. Management demands that. That's why things are a bit slow at adopting new codecs until the numbers are right. That's why they'll still stream in h264 for awhile.

Of course companies R&D divisions test new codecs as well as being members of consortiums like the Alliance for Open Media. And they will test well in advance of telling the public they are doing so. I think because Hulu's head tech guy was the lead for FFMpeg they'll favor open source solutions. Also many of these companies probably tend to use FFMpeg for encoding these days rather than corporate encoders. There's a difference between having 5 engineers eyes on your encoiding software and 100s.
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post #8561 of 8822 Old 12-21-2016, 01:28 PM
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Welcome to software techs talk!


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post #8562 of 8822 Old 12-21-2016, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
That's why they'll still stream in h264 for awhile.

They actually can't stop--there are millions of devices still in use in their customers' homes which cannot decode HEVC or VP9 (like all non-4K-capable Rokus and FTVs and ATVs and an endless variety of smart TVs, disc players and game consoles). They still create encodings in VC-1 with "muxed" WMA audio (built into the video instead of "unmuxed" audio, streamed in separate packets) for ancient devices from the beginning of their streaming service. They also still encode a profile for older iOS devices. Until no one (or practically no one) is requesting streams with those profiles from their servers, what else can they do?
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post #8563 of 8822 Old 12-21-2016, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by mailiang View Post
Welcome to software techs talk!

How Netflix encodes its video is surely pertinent to the topic of "streaming quality" .

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post #8564 of 8822 Old 12-23-2016, 03:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CANNON-FODDER View Post
Unless Netflix or your ISP is rate-shaping that specific traffic.

Comcast just swapped a Ubee modem with one of those all-in-one things, so all of this was done yesterday as I got everything hooked up again.

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I get 95Mb/s speeds from my Ultra with the Roku speedtest app.
From Netflix I show 50Mb/s on the ROku Ultra
While my tablets and PCs will show 150Mb/s which is what my FiOS speed tops out at.

The streaming apps usually start out in UHD for me or worst it takes only a few seconds.

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post #8565 of 8822 Old 12-23-2016, 03:36 PM
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Mines kinda the same. My Ultra can hit around 80-100 on the speedtest app. Netflix app is usually 35-50, and my iphone/laptop hits 220 on 200 down service.
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post #8566 of 8822 Old 12-24-2016, 01:07 PM
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Getting Google Fiber in a week or two. Getting the basic 100 Mbps service. I'll finally be able to engage Netflix 4K service on my man cave TV.

Let's hope it works.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
I get 95Mb/s speeds from my Ultra with the Roku speedtest app.
From Netflix I show 50Mb/s on the ROku Ultra
While my tablets and PCs will show 150Mb/s which is what my FiOS speed tops out at.

The streaming apps usually start out in UHD for me or worst it takes only a few seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Mines kinda the same. My Ultra can hit around 80-100 on the speedtest app. Netflix app is usually 35-50, and my iphone/laptop hits 220 on 200 down service.
According to a Netflix rep, the interface app is designed as a trouble shooting utility, not a speed test like Fast.com. It just gives a snap shot of your speed, which I can only assume is the minimum download results.

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post #8568 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 10:36 AM
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Hey guy's quick (?)

I stopped my Netflix subscription a year ago or so and resumed my account with Netflix yesterday. I subscribe to their video-streaming service for (2) devices w/HD available. My ISP is Verizon w/a 50/50 Mbps Internet connection. I stream Netflix shows with three wireless devices inside my home: (2) PS3's & a Samsung PDP. I have my Netflix account profile playback settings set to high.

It appears I'm receiving HD video from Netflix, but I used to be able to display the status of the Mbps being delivered as well as the image quality: 480i/720p/1080i/1080p.

I can't seem to display this information, does Netflix still provide a method to determine what the image status is during a current session?
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post #8569 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 10:41 AM
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I can't seem to display this information, does Netflix still provide a method to determine what the image status is during a current session?

It was an undocumented debugging feature which they seemed to have removed from their UI on all platforms.

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post #8570 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
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It was an undocumented debugging feature which they seemed to have removed from their UI on all platforms.
Thanks. I guess it's up to my old eyes (w/early stage cataract in left eye) to determine the IQ. Based on past recollection is appears pretty much the same as before, sharp enough but a bit softer than Cable TV.
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post #8571 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9179mhb View Post
Thanks. I guess it's up to my old eyes (w/early stage cataract in left eye) to determine the IQ. Based on past recollection is appears pretty much the same as before, sharp enough but a bit softer than Cable TV.

As a sanity check, you can play "El Fuente: 60 main10" or "Example Short 23.976", clips with bit rate and resolution information burned into each of their constituent video encodes (the former has 4K encodes which the latter lacks). Click the links to open their entries in a browser and use the link there to add them to your My List; Netflix won't match those titles in a search.

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post #8572 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 12:18 PM
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I guess I haven't been paying attention, how long ago did they remove that bitrate/res display?
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post #8573 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 12:33 PM
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I've been watching "Mar De Plastico" ("The Sea of Plastic"), a Spanish series that really looks good. Almost as if Netflix is sneaking in 2K if your setup supports it. Can't be 4K because I didn't sign up for even though they took note I have a set that supports it (just not the required broadband speed yet) and put up a dialog saying 4K was available for $2 more. YouTube has 2K encodes. It's the "720p" of 4K.
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post #8574 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 01:09 PM
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I guess I haven't been paying attention, how long ago did they remove that bitrate/res display?

It occurred a month or two ago. The option gradually disappeared from all of my devices. They also changed the action of the UP remote button during playback. It used to immediately take you back to a title's description and playback dialog; now it brings up a little menu of 3 icons in the upper left corner, Audio & Subtitles, Exit and Play from Beginning. It used to take only one key press to exit playback, now it takes 4 (UP, UP, LEFT, SELECT).

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post #8575 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
It occurred a month or two ago. The option gradually disappeared from all of my devices. They also changed the action of the UP remote button during playback. It used to immediately take you back to a title's description and playback dialog; now it brings up a little menu of 3 icons in the upper left corner, Audio & Subtitles, Exit and Play from Beginning. It used to take only one key press to exit playback, now it takes 4 (UP, UP, LEFT, SELECT).
Yes, I've seen that exit behavior, I guess I haven't been checking the debug info lately though, thanks.

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post #8576 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
It occurred a month or two ago. The option gradually disappeared from all of my devices. They also changed the action of the UP remote button during playback. It used to immediately take you back to a title's description and playback dialog; now it brings up a little menu of 3 icons in the upper left corner, Audio & Subtitles, Exit and Play from Beginning. It used to take only one key press to exit playback, now it takes 4 (UP, UP, LEFT, SELECT).
On a Roku player, the back button also exits playback, so for them it isn't so bad.

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post #8577 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
It occurred a month or two ago. The option gradually disappeared from all of my devices. .
The overlay remains on 2 devices of mine. A Samsung HDTV, and a 2012 Toshiba BR Player. The Toshiba has the previous UI (thus, can't be updated), while the Samsung has the standard UI.

Dazed and confused over high tech.

Sigh...Concrap. The Internet Overlord Cometh
They're not com-tastic!
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post #8578 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 03:40 PM
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Noticed Netflix is using Hvec on most content with my Fire tv. Guess the quality is better.
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post #8579 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
It was an undocumented debugging feature which they seemed to have removed from their UI on all platforms.
I never know about that bitrate thing but at least on my roku 3 the asterisk button still displays the resolution and audio status (5.1 or stereo) and the info button on my BD-H6500 samsung blu ray player does the same. We're talking about something different I think but at least there is still a way to check the resolution.
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post #8580 of 8822 Old 01-21-2017, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westly-C View Post
The overlay remains on 2 devices of mine. A Samsung HDTV, and a 2012 Toshiba BR Player. The Toshiba has the previous UI (thus, can't be updated), while the Samsung has the standard UI.
I tried it on my Samsung the other night, and it was gone. I just received a firmware update that added Netflix HDR, so that was what likely stripped it out.

Dan
Samsung JU7100 4K TV, Yamaha RX-V679, Windows 10 home media server with Serviio and Plex, 18TB of movies/TV shows. Other players and TVs as well.
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