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post #8641 of 8800 Old 03-27-2017, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mgkdragn View Post
After having curated my selections meticulously over the years, including material I have watched independently of Netflix yet is on NF, using the 5 star system, I am saddened that the Powers That Be have decided to go with a simplified up or down indicator .. does the new system somehow save Bandwidth .. ??
It seems that they trialed the thumbs up/down ratings format on the 19 million new subscribers who signed up in 2016, while us oldsters kept the star system. And a high percentage of the newbies actively rated more titles than the rest of us. Grrrrr, so we get stuck with something that we didn't ask for...

The very best way for Netflix to learn about us, would be to give us the option of picking one or the other. They clearly have the capability to offer varying UIs, and features, yet they insist on never taking advantage of it, slavishly fixating on the blandest presentation they can force upon us.
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post #8642 of 8800 Old 03-27-2017, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by humbland View Post
Thanks. I already tried that. They have several video tests ie for 4K bandwidth. Some contain an audio sweep. However, none of them have individual audio channel tests.
Anybody else?
(Edit: sorry, couldn't find it. Actually not sure why I posted now... Seemed like a good idea at the time, maybe just to justify annoying the wife)
I usually listen via headphones, and I tend to forget that I have my powered external speakers backwards (power/input on 'wrong' speaker). I am almost certain I was recently reminded via one of these patterns I have "wish-listed".

So it would have had the "Left Channel, Right Channel, etc.", but I couldn't find that one this time. All of the ones in the (4 seasons of) "Test Patterns" had that same number count everywhere I sampled them (my wife loved it).
https://www.netflix.com/title/80018499

But again, in my memory, "El Fuente" was much more like "Example Show".
(El Fuente: 60 main10) https://www.netflix.com/title/70297469
(El Fuente: 24 main) https://www.netflix.com/title/70295492
(Example Show) https://www.netflix.com/title/70206978

v/r,
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post #8643 of 8800 Old 03-28-2017, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by CANNON-FODDER View Post
(Edit: sorry, couldn't find it. Actually not sure why I posted now... Seemed like a good idea at the time, maybe just to justify annoying the wife)
I usually listen via headphones, and I tend to forget that I have my powered external speakers backwards (power/input on 'wrong' speaker). I am almost certain I was recently reminded via one of these patterns I have "wish-listed".

So it would have had the "Left Channel, Right Channel, etc.", but I couldn't find that one this time. All of the ones in the (4 seasons of) "Test Patterns" had that same number count everywhere I sampled them (my wife loved it).
https://www.netflix.com/title/80018499

But again, in my memory, "El Fuente" was much more like "Example Show".
(El Fuente: 60 main10) https://www.netflix.com/title/70297469
(El Fuente: 24 main) https://www.netflix.com/title/70295492
(Example Show) [url]https://www.netflix.com/title/70206978[/url

v/r,
C-F
Thanks for looking. As far as I can tell, he "Sample Show" is identical to the audio test Shot.
It just does not have the bitrate in the corner or the test tones (including the subwoofer sweep).
Disappointed to see it go...
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post #8644 of 8800 Old 04-11-2017, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Does Netflix say the debug bitrate shown is video only? I would think it's the combined or it's not really a correct representation.

(Continued from another thread). It's debugging information; Netflix has never said anything to the public about it or even acknowledged its existence AFAICT. Tons of customers use it but it's totally unsupported (recently I believe that they tried to remove it, probably to eliminate customer complaints based on its info, but got so many complaints that they had to put it back ). I doubt that the engineers who use it need absolute precision. It's more of an indication of where on the video bit rate ladder they are.

Again, in the debugging overlay for PC players bit rate is cited as A/V where A is the audio bit rate and V is the video one. You can force a change in one and the other remains the same. The video bit rates are the same as the ones shown in the embedded player debug display. In most cases the difference between that and video+audio bit rate is trivial.
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post #8645 of 8800 Old 04-11-2017, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
(Continued from another thread). It's debugging information; Netflix has never said anything to the public about it or even acknowledged its existence AFAICT. Tons of customers use it but it's totally unsupported (recently I believe that they tried to remove it, probably to eliminate customer complaints based on its info, but got so many complaints that they had to put it back ). I doubt that the engineers who use it need absolute precision. It's more of an indication of where on the video bit rate ladder they are.
It's an average of a constrained VBR stream.

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Again, in the debugging overlay for PC players bit rate is cited as A/V where A is the audio bit rate and V is the video one. You can force a change in one and the other remains the same. The video bit rates are the same as the ones shown in the embedded player debug display. In most cases the difference between that and video+audio bit rate is trivial.
Audio is always the same bitrate regardless of resolution. That's why you don't need to waste filespace for audio in each video stream. Just use one audio stream file and sync via manifest. There's nothing too mystical about this as it is all mostly open source and plenty of tutorials and examples on the web. Microsoft has a good DASH example you can run off your local network.

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post #8646 of 8800 Old 04-11-2017, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
It's an average of a constrained VBR stream.

It's not any instantaneous average. It's a fixed "name" of an encode (the parameter of the encoder which defines the desired average, I presume). If the bit rate ladder for the title that you're watching goes 100-, 150-, 200-, 320-, 460-, 680-, 1000-, 1870- and 4870 Kbps it will be one of those values (I just got those values for an episode of Star Trek TOS ). While audio bit rate remains constant for what you've chosen, it will vary according to that choice; 192 Kbps for DD+ 5.1, 96 Kbps HE-AAC if you've chosen stereo in an embedded client, probably 64 Kbps HE-AAC if you're watching in a web browser.
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post #8647 of 8800 Old 04-12-2017, 07:06 AM
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I have noticed since it's re-activation last month that the diagnostics are a bit flaky. On both my Roku and a BD player, the first time I enable it, it will typically still only show 480 at some low bitrate, even though the picture is obviously HD. I have to rewind a bit to force a re-buffer to get it to update, and even then, I wonder about the bitrate shown.

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post #8648 of 8800 Old 04-12-2017, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
It's not any instantaneous average. It's a fixed "name" of an encode (the parameter of the encoder which defines the desired average, I presume). If the bit rate ladder for the title that you're watching goes 100-, 150-, 200-, 320-, 460-, 680-, 1000-, 1870- and 4870 Kbps it will be one of those values (I just got those values for an episode of Star Trek TOS ). While audio bit rate remains constant for what you've chosen, it will vary according to that choice; 192 Kbps for DD+ 5.1, 96 Kbps HE-AAC if you've chosen stereo in an embedded client, probably 64 Kbps HE-AAC if you're watching in a web browser.
Michael, those are "targetted" bit rates. Encoders return the average bitrate for the file. You have said you've never done any encoding so you are getting off base. Download some clips and get some hands on. There are some good sample 4k clips available including a Blender animation and a clip Sony contributed. To make things easier I will recommend the free Shotcut app rather than try to figure out FFMpeg.
https://shotcut.org/

It will edit 4K and encode both in HEVC and VP9.

Also I know you have a Roku device and do you have Hulu too? Anyone who have done videography or even photography can recognize the difference between 1080p and 2160p. Last night it took "The Path" ten minutes to get from 1080p to 2160p. So they probably figure it's not ready for an "official" announcement. However "Harlots" came up in 2160p with a minute or two much like 2160p does with Netflix.

On "The Path" there is a scene near the beginning of a group outside shot with long DOF being addressed where the heads in the group are around 1/16 the height of the frame. At 1080p those heads lack definition but on another similar scene near the end in 2160p the heads are very clean and defined.

You might find this Roku video encoding guidelines useful.
https://sdkdocs.roku.com/display/sdk...ing+Guidelines

Yesterday I encoded a video in VP9 with the default Opus audio codec to see what Roku would do with it, whether it would reject the video altogether or play. It played the clip without the audio. I think that Hulu as well as other streaming services that don't have surround are waiting for the AV1 to be released which has been pushed back to fall. Unlike video, audio decoding can be added in software. BTW, surround bitrates are multiples of the per channel bitrate of 64 or 96 bits so that's how 5.1 (actually 6 channels) can add up to 384.
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post #8649 of 8800 Old 04-12-2017, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Michael, those are "targetted" bit rates.

Okay; targeted bit rates. My point was that they are not actual measurements, just the designation for the encode currently being played.
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Also I know you have a Roku device and do you have Hulu too? Anyone who have done videography or even photography can recognize the difference between 1080p and 2160p. Last night it took "The Path" ten minutes to get from 1080p to 2160p. So they probably figure it's not ready for an "official" announcement. However "Harlots" came up in 2160p with a minute or two much like 2160p does with Netflix.

On "The Path" there is a scene near the beginning of a group outside shot with long DOF being addressed where the heads in the group are around 1/16 the height of the frame. At 1080p those heads lack definition but on another similar scene near the end in 2160p the heads are very clean and defined.

I'll take a look on my Premiere+ and try the same on my Xbone S (which officially has 4K Hulu) to see if it seems any different to me.

Quote:
BTW, surround bitrates are multiples of the per channel bitrate of 64 or 96 bits so that's how 5.1 (actually 6 channels) can add up to 384.

Netflix's original surround sound was basic DD at 384 Kbps; then they switched to DD+ at 384 Kbps which sounded great (they still provide basic DD to iOS devices). Then Dolby announced that their new DD+ encoder could achieve the same quality using half as many bits as before and Netflix promptly halved the bit rate of their DD+ tracks.
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post #8650 of 8800 Old 04-13-2017, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
I'll take a look on my Premiere+ and try the same on my Xbone S (which officially has 4K Hulu) to see if it seems any different to me.
Good! The LCD Display section is a mess here. They really should have sectioned it out via make like some other sites do for gear. When I suggested it Mike Lang rebuffed me. Probably not an easy thing to do anymore. Searches won't work well because you'll get threads listed where someone just mentions a TCL Roku TV in passing. I would like to ask any other 4K Roku TV owner with Hulu if they are noticing anything.

On my Shield TV where I can get a log and see all the debug on Hulu the shows are only 1080p and look like upscaled 1080p on the TV.

Another thought I had as to why just the PS4 Pro and Xbox One S is that Sony and Microsoft might be providing the CDNs for those shows. Just weird it's been 4 months and no officially added devices. Maybe resources are strained at Hulu as they work on their live system.
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post #8651 of 8800 Old 04-13-2017, 04:55 PM
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I was into black & white art photography decades ago (shot on film); I have never been into videography. Sadly, "4K-ness" in streaming video can be difficult for me to discern. I can see and appreciate the sharpness and fine color gradients of most 4K discs I've viewed. I own a UV copy of Lucy; that's quite nice on VUDU (stupid film, impressive visuals ). I watched a 4K rental of Arrival on VUDU the other night; by the nature of the subject it didn't much benefit from 4K (I only bought it because the difference in price was only $2; usually it's $4).

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post #8652 of 8800 Old 04-14-2017, 11:36 AM
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I also watched "Arrival" for a $1.49 promo deal on Google Movies in 4K. I agree, it isn't exactly a good example of 4K. Too much dark photography. That's why I say "Harlots" with a lot of brightly lit sets and costumes is good. It's also hard to discern anything due to different styles of shooting. A show like "The Blacklist" doesn't look that much different in 4K other than being a bit "crisper".

BTW, I don't know if it was network congestion but Netflix had problems last night getting above 11.44 Mbps on "Luke Cage". It's usually 15.25 Mbps and went there in the last 5 minutes so maybe congestion though I seldom see that anymore. I also watched the first episode of "Longmire" which never got to any 2160p. I wonder if only later episodes are actually 4K?
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post #8653 of 8800 Old 04-14-2017, 01:42 PM
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I also watched the first episode of "Longmire" which never got to any 2160p. I wonder if only later episodes are actually 4K?

If you mean season 1, episode 1 of Longmire, no it is not 4K. The show got cancelled by TNT after 3 seasons and was picked up by Netflix; season 4 and later are in 4K.

The little diag info display seems out of whack, at least on my TiVo. It claims that everything is starting in low bit rate 480p, even when that's obviously wrong.

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post #8654 of 8800 Old 04-14-2017, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
The little diag info display seems out of whack, at least on my TiVo. It claims that everything is starting in low bit rate 480p, even when that's obviously wrong.
Back at post #8647 , I mentioned the same issue on both my Roku and BD player. You have to rewind a bit or do something to force a re-buffer.

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post #8655 of 8800 Old 04-14-2017, 02:07 PM
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If you mean season 1, episode 1 of Longmire, no it is not 4K. The show got cancelled by TNT after 3 seasons and was picked up by Netflix; season 4 and later are in 4K.

The little diag info display seems out of whack, at least on my TiVo. It claims that everything is starting in low bit rate 480p, even when that's obviously wrong.
The low resolution starts happen to me on Netflix, too, but the low resolution is usually obvious even to my less that Golden Eyes. Fortunately, the resolution usually spins up to 1080 and then 2160 in a short while.

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post #8656 of 8800 Old 04-15-2017, 11:37 AM
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I watched the horror film "Abattoir" last night and it was streaming 1080p at 2.75 Mbps but looked fine for 1080p. Neat what can be done with the new codes though the film is in scope and they don't bother encoding the black bars which saves.
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post #8657 of 8800 Old 04-15-2017, 12:56 PM
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I tried(and eventually did) watch the first episode of Bordertown last night, a Finnish crime mystery and the quality kept dropping down and up while I was watching. It would be fine at 7.15Mbps/1080p but then suddenly drop all the way down to less than 1Mbps and 240 and then ramp back up. It's been a very long time since I've seen that sort of behavior, in fact, it's been since before the Comcast extortion issue was resolved. I'm going to try and watch ep.2 tonight, hopefully, that was just an anomaly and not indicative of the rest of the series.
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post #8658 of 8800 Old 04-16-2017, 01:06 PM
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I tried(and eventually did) watch the first episode of Bordertown last night, a Finnish crime mystery and the quality kept dropping down and up while I was watching. It would be fine at 7.15Mbps/1080p but then suddenly drop all the way down to less than 1Mbps and 240 and then ramp back up. It's been a very long time since I've seen that sort of behavior, in fact, it's been since before the Comcast extortion issue was resolved. I'm going to try and watch ep.2 tonight, hopefully, that was just an anomaly and not indicative of the rest of the series.
Interesting series, I'll probably finish the 11th episode tonight. I've seen it at different bitrates but usually around 2.87 Mbps which looks fine because it's HEVC. But this week was a little strange as some of the 4K encodes were only coming in at 11.44 Mbps which still looks good.
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post #8659 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
Okay; targeted bit rates. My point was that they are not actual measurements, just the designation for the encode currently being played.



I'll take a look on my Premiere+ and try the same on my Xbone S (which officially has 4K Hulu) to see if it seems any different to me.




Netflix's original surround sound was basic DD at 384 Kbps; then they switched to DD+ at 384 Kbps which sounded great (they still provide basic DD to iOS devices). Then Dolby announced that their new DD+ encoder could achieve the same quality using half as many bits as before and Netflix promptly halved the bit rate of their DD+ tracks.
You don't happen to know Vudu's audio bit rate off hand do you? Because unless I'm imagining things it sounds a little better than netflix
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post #8660 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 08:19 AM
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You don't happen to know Vudu's audio bit rate off hand do you? Because unless I'm imagining things it sounds a little better than netflix
With the exact same soundtrack?

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post #8661 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 08:44 AM
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You don't happen to know Vudu's audio bit rate off hand do you? Because unless I'm imagining things it sounds a little better than netflix
FWIW - a bit dated. I'm sure Michael will chime in with the correct answer.

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Vudu = 1080p 7.1 DD+ 384kbps / 5.1 DD+ 384kbps / 5.1 DD 384kbps

Netflix = 1080p 5.1 DD+ 192kbps

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post #8662 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 11:18 AM
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Yes, this is why I definitely have to back off volume a couple DB when I watch something on VUDU and bump things up a couple DB with Netflix's thin audio encode. That's how bitrates effect volume levels.
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post #8663 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr.G View Post
FWIW - a bit dated. I'm sure Michael will chime in with the correct answer.
I believe Mikes a bit busy entertaining his friends on the beach right now.



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Yes, this is why I definitely have to back off volume a couple DB when I watch something on VUDU and bump things up a couple DB with Netflix's thin audio encode. That's how bitrates effect volume levels.
I have found volume variations on different DD broadcasts, streaming and even BD titles now and then, and I have a pretty good HT sound system. The questions remains, with various DD plus streaming encodes, is there an actual difference in sound quality?

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post #8664 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Interesting series, I'll probably finish the 11th episode tonight. I've seen it at different bitrates but usually around 2.87 Mbps which looks fine because it's HEVC. But this week was a little strange as some of the 4K encodes were only coming in at 11.44 Mbps which still looks good.
I finally finished this series last night and ran into a couple more episodes that had 7.15 Mbps showing as the bitrate and each time I had the same problem with it running fine and then dropping off suddenly to less than 1 Mbps and 240p then slowly ramping back up to the 7.15 Mbps number, what ever that is. The episodes that started at 4.22 Mbps 1080p ran smoothly and without issue throughout. Both, the 7.15 and the 4.22, looked identical so I'm not sure what was happening with that "bitrate ladder" on those unnecessarily high 7.15 Mbps episodes. The fact that it was so high, needlessly so, makes me think there was an error in the encoding or in my particular stream from the CDN. I've never seen that behavior before, hopefully I won't come across it again.

I'm viewing with a TiVo Roamio Pro by the way.
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post #8665 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 01:06 PM
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I searched the forum but could not find an answer. Does Netflix provide 7.1 audio for those few tv shows that support it. The only tv shows I'm aware of that have 7.1 audio or better are Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: The Original Series, and Game of Thrones in atmos.

Also, does Netflix even support atmos? My understanding is that atmos can work over lossy Dolby Digital Plus.

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post #8666 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by genesplitter View Post
I searched the forum but could not find an answer. Does Netflix provide 7.1 audio for those few tv shows that support it. The only tv shows I'm aware of that have 7.1 audio or better are Star Trek: The Next Generation, Star Trek: The Original Series, and Game of Thrones in atmos.

Also, does Netflix even support atmos? My understanding is that atmos can work over lossy Dolby Digital Plus.

No 7.1, no Atmos yet. DD+ can be encoded with Atmos, as is streamed by VUDU for many 4K titles (only available if you buy or rent 4K).

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post #8667 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 02:10 PM
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Netflix uses much more data then they need too thank goodness I have unlimited data. Since I got the FTV latest update it will show how much data each app uses. NF this month is over 40 GB while Hulu was only around 15 to 20 GB and I watch Hulu more than NF.

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post #8668 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 02:44 PM
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Poor Mike!

I have found volume variations on different DD broadcasts, streaming and even BD titles now and then, and I have a pretty good HT sound system. The questions remains, with various DD plus streaming encodes, is there an actual difference in sound quality?

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post #8669 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 02:48 PM
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I finally finished this series last night and ran into a couple more episodes that had 7.15 Mbps showing as the bitrate and each time I had the same problem with it running fine and then dropping off suddenly to less than 1 Mbps and 240p then slowly ramping back up to the 7.15 Mbps number, what ever that is. The episodes that started at 4.22 Mbps 1080p ran smoothly and without issue throughout. Both, the 7.15 and the 4.22, looked identical so I'm not sure what was happening with that "bitrate ladder" on those unnecessarily high 7.15 Mbps episodes. The fact that it was so high, needlessly so, makes me think there was an error in the encoding or in my particular stream from the CDN. I've never seen that behavior before, hopefully I won't come across it again.

I'm viewing with a TiVo Roamio Pro by the way.
With HEVC then they don't need to go much above 4:22 because that is almost than the equivalent of 7 Mbps using h264. Also HEVC has some video quality components that make it look better than h264 ever can even without HDR. Note the fine detail of the landscape in the title sequence for "Bordertown."

On my Shield TV where I can get logs Netflix is using HEVC even for HD titles.
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post #8670 of 8800 Old 04-17-2017, 02:52 PM
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Should have mentioned that I did a chat session with AT&T today to find out when their daily usage stats begin. It was too tough a question for the "customer support" person so they turned me over to a "tech specialist" who still seemed to wander away and find someone who knew what I was asking. For instance today's usage show almost 9 GB but I could in no way have already used 9 GB. So the daily usage is posted at 12 AM and is ACTUALLY for the previous day. I hope my question makes them rethink that listing.
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