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post #8671 of 8689 Old 04-17-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
With HEVC then they don't need to go much above 4:22 because that is almost than the equivalent of 7 Mbps using h264. Also HEVC has some video quality components that make it look better than h264 ever can even without HDR. Note the fine detail of the landscape in the title sequence for "Bordertown."

On my Shield TV where I can get logs Netflix is using HEVC even for HD titles.
So maybe I was getting some mixed encodes, some HEVC and some not as indicated by the bitrates. And yes, the title sequence detail is stunning, I'm not sure how it could be much better than that, at least not on my 65" 1080p/24-capable plasma display.
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post #8672 of 8689 Old 04-17-2017, 07:08 PM
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I'll take a look on my Premiere+ and try the same on my Xbone S (which officially has 4K Hulu) to see if it seems any different to me.

I've reported my observations here in the Who Has Hulu Plus thread.

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post #8673 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Keenan View Post
So maybe I was getting some mixed encodes, some HEVC and some not as indicated by the bitrates. And yes, the title sequence detail is stunning, I'm not sure how it could be much better than that, at least not on my 65" 1080p/24-capable plasma display.
I noticed last night that the new Mexican series "Ingobernable" streamed at 4.22 Mbps while "Jack Taylor" at 4.75 Mbps. Both 1080p and both looked good. So their streaming speeds are more dependent on the content than setting any specific target. Different episodes may be at differing bitrates too. I also read about a company that has a technique for delivering 4K at much lower speeds that they will be showing at NAB.
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post #8674 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 11:29 AM
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I noticed last night that the new Mexican series "Ingobernable" streamed at 4.22 Mbps while "Jack Taylor" at 4.75 Mbps. Both 1080p and both looked good. So their streaming speeds are more dependent on the content than setting any specific target. Different episodes may be at differing bitrates too. I also read about a company that has a technique for delivering 4K at much lower speeds that they will be showing at NAB.
I was going to try and start "Ingobernable" soon, my brother said it was good, although, he and his wife are more into the soapy aspects of TV shows than I am; the description sounds very much like The Good Wife".

I agree that the encodes are fluid as well, the bitrate "ladders" have many more "rungs" than they had in the past.

I think with Bordertown it was a case of some episodes having the new system and some still having an older system as far as their encoding combined with different sets of encodes at different CDNs since a couple times I could "force" a better, lower bitrate(4.22) encode to stream instead of the faulty 7.15 one.
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post #8675 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 11:59 AM
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I was going to try and start "Ingobernable" soon, my brother said it was good, although, he and his wife are more into the soapy aspects of TV shows than I am; the description sounds very much like The Good Wife".
A "telenovela" it is not. It's like what US broadcast shows like "24:Legacy" or even "Designated Survivor" should be. It's more edgy drama. I think the lead actress playing the Mexican first lady was in the excellent prison drama series that played on HBO a few years ago.
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I agree that the encodes are fluid as well, the bitrate "ladders" have many more "rungs" than they had in the past.
Two pass encoding is a technique that has been around awhile that adjusts a variable bitrate to match content. But now they have even better techniques that they can run before encoding to determine rates. Sometimes if the background shifts just a little due to camera movement newer encodes just say to move that area rather than encoding it again if heuristics say the viewers eyes won't notice. That is even done to an extent with h264 but with the newer codecs which use a 64x64 area rather than 16x16 it saves even more bits.

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I think with Bordertown it was a case of some episodes having the new system and some still having an older system as far as their encoding combined with different sets of encodes at different CDNs since a couple times I could "force" a better, lower bitrate(4.22) encode to stream instead of the faulty 7.15 one.
For Netflix you probably aren't getting streams from Amazon's CDN but from a Bay Area CDN where the Amazon stream has been cached. That's how CDNs work. Apparently if you are the first in the area to watch a title you'll get it from Amazon but your stream will get cached at a CDN locally for the next viewer in the area. Sorta reminds me of how bittorent works.
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post #8676 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 12:06 PM
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They've been using custom bit rate ladders for a while now, generated per-episode for series. If you want to see the bit rate ladder for a particular title play it in the Win10 app or Edge (still, I think, the only browser which can get 1080p; all others are confined to 720p ), left-click the video to give it keyboard focus and type CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-S.

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post #8677 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 12:13 PM
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They've been using custom bit rate ladders for a while now, generated per-episode for series. If you want to see the bit rate ladder for a particular title play it in the Win10 app or Edge (still, I think, the only browser which can get 1080p; all others are confined to 720p ), left-click the video to give it keyboard focus and type CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-S.
I tried to do that to see what may be happening but you just reminded me that it has to be done with Edge, I was trying it with Chrome and could only get 720p as you've noted. I'll try with Edge when I get some time later today.

I just gave it a try and it looks like there are at least two different "base" encodes for this series, one at 4870 and the other at 7500. I know for certain that the second one below, the 7500, was one that I had trouble with the quality dropping completely out down to less than 1 Mbps and I'm pretty sure the first one, the 4870, was one that I had no problem with at all.

Ep.5
Spoiler!

Ep.11(final episode)
Spoiler!

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post #8678 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
Michael, those are "targetted" bit rates. Encoders return the average bitrate for the file. You have said you've never done any encoding so you are getting off base. Download some clips and get some hands on. There are some good sample 4k clips available including a Blender animation and a clip Sony contributed. To make things easier I will recommend the free Shotcut app rather than try to figure out FFMpeg.
https://shotcut.org/

It will edit 4K and encode both in HEVC and VP9.

Also I know you have a Roku device and do you have Hulu too? Anyone who have done videography or even photography can recognize the difference between 1080p and 2160p. Last night it took "The Path" ten minutes to get from 1080p to 2160p. So they probably figure it's not ready for an "official" announcement. However "Harlots" came up in 2160p with a minute or two much like 2160p does with Netflix.

On "The Path" there is a scene near the beginning of a group outside shot with long DOF being addressed where the heads in the group are around 1/16 the height of the frame. At 1080p those heads lack definition but on another similar scene near the end in 2160p the heads are very clean and defined.

You might find this Roku video encoding guidelines useful.
https://sdkdocs.roku.com/display/sdk...ing+Guidelines

Yesterday I encoded a video in VP9 with the default Opus audio codec to see what Roku would do with it, whether it would reject the video altogether or play. It played the clip without the audio. I think that Hulu as well as other streaming services that don't have surround are waiting for the AV1 to be released which has been pushed back to fall. Unlike video, audio decoding can be added in software. BTW, surround bitrates are multiples of the per channel bitrate of 64 or 96 bits so that's how 5.1 (actually 6 channels) can add up to 384.
That's a long time to get to 2160P. It typically takes between 5 and 30 seconds for me to get to the highest 2160P encode. Sometimes it quicker and sometimes a little slower. But it rarely takes very long.

The most recent 4k Netflix show I watched was Travelers. I finished watching it on Tuesday.

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post #8679 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 01:25 PM
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For Netflix you probably aren't getting streams from Amazon's CDN but from a Bay Area CDN where the Amazon stream has been cached. That's how CDNs work. Apparently if you are the first in the area to watch a title you'll get it from Amazon but your stream will get cached at a CDN locally for the next viewer in the area. Sorta reminds me of how bittorent works.

My impression is that they use dynamically allocated AWS EC2 instances (Amazon Web Services Elastic Compute Cloud) to serve up and run the Netflix UI, but that content is streamed from other CDNs, these days primarily their own. You can kind of see this by playing something in the Windows Netflix app while looking at Network Activity in Windows Resource Monitor (at least in Win8 and Win10). Determine which of the "processes with network activity" is Netflix; it used to be called Netflix (probably back in Win8) but now shows up as an instance of WMAHost.exe--it should have the most network activity assuming that your system is otherwise idle. Right-click that process' check box. When you start playing a title you'll see a ton of connections to various servers pop up (I see connections to an Akamai server as well as Netflix and AWS EC2 servers), like this:

Spoiler!

It gradually drops most of those connections and settles down to just a few, an EC2 instance and one or two connections to content servers (in my case always Netflix's), like this:

Spoiler!


In this example occasionally the Akamai server would come back into play, sending a trickle of data. At the very end of the video after it's filled the buffer for the final time it'll drop the content server connections while play continues for a minute or so.

They also use EC2 instances for encoding video, although why they wouldn't use their own equipment for that I don't know. It's no doubt faster and cheaper.

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post #8680 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post
They've been using custom bit rate ladders for a while now, generated per-episode for series. If you want to see the bit rate ladder for a particular title play it in the Win10 app or Edge (still, I think, the only browser which can get 1080p; all others are confined to 720p ), left-click the video to give it keyboard focus and type CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-S.
http://www.businessinsider.com/netfl...-stream-2017-4

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That's a long time to get to 2160P. It typically takes between 5 and 30 seconds for me to get to the highest 2160P encode. Sometimes it quicker and sometimes a little slower. But it rarely takes very long.
I believe that's dependent on a lot of factors, including the available bandwidth from your network, and your player's processor.

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post #8681 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM
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That's a long time to get to 2160P. It typically takes between 5 and 30 seconds for me to get to the highest 2160P encode. Sometimes it quicker and sometimes a little slower. But it rarely takes very long.
Certainly varies by ISP. I don't have 4K Netflix access any longer, but when I did it could take several minutes to reach 2160, and this was consistent. Amazon would usually reach UHD within 30 seconds, and YouTube can reach 2160 in a matter of seconds. I had to file an FCC complaint against my ISP to get them to do anything. However, once they did, they claimed to discover something outside their network was throttling my Netflix, but nothing else. Convenient for them, huh? But it didn't leave my any other recourse, other than switching ISPs. Since my only other option is Comcast, who my wife has vowed to never allow on our property again, I was stuck. Even with 1080 content, I often would see my Netflix stream drop as low as 240 before climbing to eventually reach 1080. And this is with a 50 Mbps DSL connection. Again, rock solid with other sources. Only Netflix has an issue for me.

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post #8682 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 02:01 PM
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That bit about some people claiming that CTRL-SHIFT-ALT-S works on consoles with a keyboard attached is interesting. Maybe I'll try it on my Xbone S. I'd love to check out bit rate ladders for 4K titles. (You can play 4K Netflix on Windows, but you need a 7th gen Intel processor with hardware support for their DRM).

EDIT: I just tried it; no joy. I confirmed that the keyboard works (Logitech K800 wireless) by typing stuff into Edge, but the CTRL-SHIFT-ALT codes had no effect on the Netflix app.

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post #8683 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 02:03 PM
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Certainly varies by ISP. I don't have 4K Netflix access any longer, but when I did it could take several minutes to reach 2160, and this was consistent. Amazon would usually reach UHD within 30 seconds, and YouTube can reach 2160 in a matter of seconds. I had to file an FCC complaint against my ISP to get them to do anything. However, once they did, they claimed to discover something outside their network was throttling my Netflix, but nothing else. Convenient for them, huh? But it didn't leave my any other recourse, other than switching ISPs. Since my only other option is Comcast, who my wife has vowed to never allow on our property again, I was stuck. Even with 1080 content, I often would see my Netflix stream drop as low as 240 before climbing to eventually reach 1080. And this is with a 50 Mbps DSL connection. Again, rock solid with other sources. Only Netflix has an issue for me.
There's far more demand on Netflix than Amazon and even YouTube for 4K videos. And possibly even local activity may effect your access. I asked the ATT tech here yesterday if access on my block is fiber to pole or fiber to node. It's fiber to node and the node is a block away. I get this impression that some of the congestion I see after ball games is local folks deciding to watch something on Netflix and occasionally causing congestion.

My service is 18 Mbps and I mainly just use Roku TV which is the newest Roku OS. The Shield TV is a bit iffy for some 4K. But Roku won't serve me the 4K YouTube videos (except for a recent Galaxy S8 4K video which was probably done by Samsung and they may have twisted Google's arm not to recode it at 21 Mbps which most YouTube 4K is). So I force 2160p on the Shield YouTube app which I can't do on Roku. Speedtest shows my service is actually 23 Mbps anyway but two wires to node (which is reliable 24 Mbps as well as faster upstream).

The delay for getting to 4K is called "latency" in the industry and they like to do things to avoid it. Some will just simply put up a "loading" progress bar to fill the buffer until there is enough read-ahead. Some of the apps on Roku do this because they are just using Roku's player which can work that way. Most all videoplayer APIs can query the device where the video is being served for everything from network speed to what codecs are supported. It's fun to look at th logs from the Shield TV for all the interaction that goes on before a video is actually played.

A good source of information on the streaming industry (and only some of it requires tech knowledge) is here:
http://www.streamingmedia.com/

And there are a number of informative articles on the net on how CDN's work.
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post #8684 of 8689 Old Yesterday, 02:28 PM
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...it looks like there are at least two different "base" encodes for this series, one at 4870 and the other at 7500.

I don't think that there are any "base encodes"; that episodes 5 and 11 have those rates on their bit rate ladder is purely coincidental. The "rungs" on those "ladders" is determined automatically by crunching the source video prior to encoding (you can see their technology blog post on this here).
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I don't think that there are any "base encodes"; that episodes 5 and 11 have those rates on their bit rate ladder is purely coincidental. The "rungs" on those "ladders" is determined automatically by crunching the source video prior to encoding (you can see their technology blog post on this here).
I'm sure you're right, I was just looking at it from the numbers that are seen with the "Info" button display, which I'm sure are not the most accurate either. Though those numbers in that display are the only real ways I can differentiate why I was getting different results from different episodes, if the display topped out at 7.15 Mbps it was crappy and I would know that as soon as the episode started, if it topped out at 4.22 Mbps it was just fine. It was like a signpost, with this number it would be fine, with this other number I knew I would have trouble. As to why they have different numbers and why some episodes ran perfectly and others failed miserably, I really am just guessing.
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Originally Posted by Brian Conrad View Post
There's far more demand on Netflix than Amazon and even YouTube for 4K videos. And possibly even local activity may effect your access. I asked the ATT tech here yesterday if access on my block is fiber to pole or fiber to node. It's fiber to node and the node is a block away. I get this impression that some of the congestion I see after ball games is local folks deciding to watch something on Netflix and occasionally causing congestion.

My service is 18 Mbps and I mainly just use Roku TV which is the newest Roku OS. The Shield TV is a bit iffy for some 4K. But Roku won't serve me the 4K YouTube videos (except for a recent Galaxy S8 4K video which was probably done by Samsung and they may have twisted Google's arm not to recode it at 21 Mbps which most YouTube 4K is). So I force 2160p on the Shield YouTube app which I can't do on Roku. Speedtest shows my service is actually 23 Mbps anyway but two wires to node (which is reliable 24 Mbps as well as faster upstream).
I agree that Netflix is likely the single largest Internet data source. But my particular problem was documented at various times of the day by my ISP (CenturyLink) and different days of the week. No common denominator except for whatever they identified outside the CL network. In theory (yeah, we know how well that works out...) DSL bandwidth is not supposed to be impacted by other users.

The Roku 4K players all support 4K YouTube, but don't support YouTube HDR as of yet. I've seen bitrates exceed 44 Mbps, which was pretty much my upper speed limit available. I've heard others report YT 4K videos in excess of 50 Mbps. I've used the debug window to watch the bitrate and resolution, and with quality 4K material YouTube is as good as my Samsung UHD hard drive. I just wish they had the audio to go along with it.
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... if the display topped out at 7.15 Mbps it was crappy and I would know that as soon as the episode started, if it topped out at 4.22 Mbps it was just fine.

You know, I just noticed that that debug display in the embedded players is displaying those encode targeted average number in powers of 2 now which, as I said before, is a wrong way to express transmission rates. The 7500 Kbps labelled encode is 7.15 on that display and the 4870 Kbps encode is displayed as 4.64: 7,500,000 is 7.152 times 2-to-the-20th and 4,870,000 is 4.644 times 2^20 . Moreover, this creates inconsistency between debug displays since the ones in the Windows app and browsers report the base 10 numbers.
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I've seen bitrates exceed 44 Mbps, which was pretty much my upper speed limit available. I've heard others report YT 4K videos in excess of 50 Mbps.
So have I, if "Connection Speed" in the "Stats for Nerds" is the encode bit rate, which I suspect may not be true. I'm just looked at a 4K trailer for Wonder Woman (25 fps received as a 24Hz signal from my Roku Premiere+) and this is what I see on my router's bandwidth monitor:

Spoiler!

It shows an average bit rate of 402.78 KiB/s which is about 3300 Kbps. Kind of remarkable for 4K even in VP9. Connection speed ran 80 Mbps+ throughout. YouTube requests 4K in AVC at 35-45 Mbps for 4K@24- or 30 fps, 53-68 Mbps for 4K@48-, 50- or 60 fps. They transcode that into VP9 using at a bit rate of their choosing.

I tested this clip (very crisp in 4K, again 25 fps displayed at 24Hz, this time on my TiVo Bolt):

Spoiler!

and got this from my router's bandwidth monitor:
Spoiler!

Which is only 5352 Kbps; again, remarkable. Connection speed was 90 Mbps.

I then watched this 60 fps 4K clip (shot in 8K):
Spoiler!

and got this from my bandwidth monitor:
Spoiler!

...indicating 3743 Kbps. Connection speed ran around 80 Mbps (I have 300 Mbps cable modem service from Cox).

Very high bit rates for YouTube streams is apparently an urban legend .

Anyone know of a supposedly super-high bit rate clip on YouTube?

EDIT: I found a YouTube downloading extension to Firefox and downloaded those clips to see what bit rates the file was encoded in (video only; I don't know how to get a combined file and don't care since I only downloaded them to see the bit rates and not to play). I downloaded all of them as VP9 in webm containers; they came down incredibly fast, with no heavy computation so they weren't being converted by my machine. The Wonder Woman trailer was 2160p25 at 9.8 Mbps, the beach scene was 2160p25 at 17.3 Mbps and the Peru thing came in three 2160p+ forms, 2160p30 at 16.9 Mbps, 2160p60 at 24.7 Mbps and 4320p60 (8K) at 65.9 Mbps. These aren't consistent with streaming bit rates that I observed; I don't know why.
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Overall I think you all are going to find that bitrate ladders are going to be irrelevant as we go forward. Each show will have it's optimized bitrate "constrained" to not rise above a target but at the same time optimized not to waste bits either. All this determined by content. The pre-process may even become open source (may be already) and maybe even part of tools like ffmpeg via an option as a three pass system. The constrained target should reflect the service levels of ISPs such as 3, 6, 12, 18, 24 and 50 Mbps.

BTW, if you play a VBR file on VideoLan using their stats tool you can find what the uncompressed bitrate is which will help to understand how this all works.
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