1080p and 5.1 sound comes to Netflix (PS3 only for now) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

When did I say anything about what resolutions they are currently using? What I said is there are many effective resolutions based on available bandwidth.

Not "many", just 2.

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post #92 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:06 PM
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Aye...thats too bad. SD's picture quality needs to be improved because dark scenes are not that good.

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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

You got it, thanks! The PS3 didn't upscale the stream to 1080i/p and now it does. That's the ONLY reason why 1080i/P was mentioned by Sony and confused a lot of people. BTW, this "upscaling" doesn't improve the picture, crap in, crap out. Only a change on the bitrate can make real difference on the picture quality.

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post #93 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Cygnus2112 View Post

Aye...thats too bad. SD's picture quality needs to be improved because dark scenes are not that good.

Dark scenes aren't great in their HD either.


Granted, many shows/movies simply have poor quality dark scenes to begin with ... but for the ones that do it well, dark scenes are unfortunately bitrate intensive if you want them to look good. Or at least I should say that encoders tend to overly compress them.
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post #94 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:16 PM
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Here is a link to the Official Netflix blog

http://blog.netflix.com/


Quote:


......There is even more good news for PS3 owners: starting today you’ll be able to instantly watch some movies and TV shows in 1080p high definition with Dolby 5.1 channel surround sound............

this is from Greg Peters, VP of product development.

so here is a Netflix representative stating that there is some 1080P content available when viewed using the PS3.

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post #95 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:17 PM
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I don't mind the dark scenes of HD content. But dark scenes of SD movies are sub-DVD quality.
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post #96 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

You got it, thanks! The PS3 didn't upscale the stream to 1080i/p and now it does. That's the ONLY reason why 1080i/P was mentioned by Sony and confused a lot of people. BTW, this "upscaling" doesn't improve the picture, crap in, crap out. Only a change on the bitrate can make real difference on the picture quality.

...and/or more efficient encoding.
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post #97 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

so here is a Netflix representative stating that there is some 1080P content available when viewed using the PS3.

Yes,yes,yes...you can see the SAME 720P stream upscaled to 1080P by the PS3. Nothing has changed on the Netflix side. The reason why this was mentioned is because the PS3 was one of the few Netflix devices not upscaling the stream. Even the 480i can now be upscaled to 1080P.

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post #98 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

...and/or more efficient encoding.

That's true but I doubt they will invent anything new here. They already tried almost all known encoding protocol, according to the article I posted.

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post #99 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post

Here is a link to the Official Netflix blog

http://blog.netflix.com/




this is from Greg Peters, VP of product development.

so here is a Netflix representative stating that there is some 1080P content available when viewed using the PS3.

Out of 44 comments only 2 questions related to resolution(1080i/p), I guess Netflix has hit it's target audience for streaming, doesn't appear anyone cares about resolution.
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post #100 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

That's true but I doubt they will invent anything new here. They already tried almost all known encoding protocol, according to the article I posted.

Yes, I know, I'm just saying in general, bandwidth and encoding do work together.

P.S. I'm not sure that that post is still current, I believe they've since changed encoding from what is stated there.
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post #101 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Yes, I know, I'm just saying in general, bandwidth and encoding do work together.

P.S. I'm not sure that that post is still current, I believe they've since changed encoding from what is stated there.

You are right. The current encoding peaks at 5.5 Mbps for HD material. The article can help people understand resolution and bitrate, though.

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post #102 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Out of 44 comments only 2 questions related to resolution(1080i/p), I guess Netflix has hit it's target audience for streaming, doesn't appear anyone cares about resolution.

I think many care but it's not at top of the list for good reason…
  • Content is King - I don't watch Transformers.
  • Bandwidth limitations - only so much detail can get through.
Until those are handled resolution hardly comes into play. For my wife and I the British series Doc Martin has been the highlight of Netflix streaming and resolution had nothing to do with it.
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post #103 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I think many care but it's not at top of the list for good reason
  • Content is King - I don't watch Transformers.
  • Bandwidth limitations - only so much detail can get through.
Until those are handled resolution hardly comes into play. For my wife and I the British series Doc Martin has been the highlight of Netflix streaming and resolution had nothing to do with it.

Yes, I should have said "most" not "anyone", and it is streaming after all, and until the average consumer has more bandwidth than they have now streaming media just can't compete with the quality of optical disc or linear delivery such as HDTV. So Netflix has moved in the direction most people can make use of now and that's audio, not increased resolution/bandwidth.

I'm still puzzled by Sony's upscaling of this content, why wouldn't they just leave it at it's native resolution, are they really just using it as a marketing ploy to sell more PS3's? Seems pretty transparent, to me anyhow.
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post #104 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:57 PM
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Is anyone getting warbling and stuttering of sound with 5.1? Im wondering if my 6mb connection isn't fast enough now.
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post #105 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Yes,yes,yes...you can see the SAME 720P stream upscaled to 1080P by the PS3. Nothing has changed on the Netflix side. The reason why this was mentioned is because the PS3 was one of the few Netflix devices not upscaling the stream. Even the 480i can now be upscaled to 1080P.

Then they would say ALL and not SOME.
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post #106 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by xcrunner529 View Post

Then they would say ALL and not SOME.

Give me a break man. The "SOME" is because only "SOME" is 5.1. If you want to believe there is any 1080i/p stream available, fine, keep dreaming!

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post #107 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I'm still puzzled by Sony's upscaling of this content, why wouldn't they just leave it at it's native resolution, are they really just using it as a marketing ploy to sell more PS3's? Seems pretty transparent, to me anyhow.

Well, that is how it's done on the 360.

I suspect it's simply easier. I'm pretty sure the native output came 'free' by virtue of the BD-J libraries being accessed. Unless something has changed, teh PS3 BluRay player does native output. SD extras aren't automatically upscaled.

When coding an application for the PS3 however, I'd imagine you need to explicitly call out the resolution. So in order to have native output, they'd need to make a system call to actually change the res when you launch a movie. Obviously they aren't doing this.
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post #108 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I'm still puzzled by Sony's upscaling of this content, why wouldn't they just leave it at it's native resolution, are they really just using it as a marketing ploy to sell more PS3's? Seems pretty transparent, to me anyhow.

The TV I use for Netflix is fairly new however every device I have used with Netflix that upscales looks better than when my set does the upscaling. That includes several Blu-ray players (outside of the Sony BDP-S570) and several media streamers. So I guess my set simply stinks at scaling!

Overall I think Netflix has done a very bad job with their streaming quality. I used Hulu Plus for a month and it was no comparison as Hulu looked HD compared to Netflix (not Blu-ray). Both were using roughly the same bandwidth so Netflix has a lot of room for improvement.
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post #109 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

A stream can't be "handled" at different resolution than it already has. Netflix stores and sends the signal at 480 or 720P. The press release that mentions 1080i/P is a SONY thing, about the PS3 now UPSCALING the signal up to 1080P. There is NO Netflix press release that mentions anything about 1080i/P streaming, just the 5.1 DD+. When and if Netflix decides to enhance the picture quality you can be sure they will make everybody know.

A 1080i/P stream, at the same bitrate , would make the picture worse. To improve the picture they need to increase bitrate and will make most of the Americans pissed because we still have internet speed limited to 6 Mbps in many regions in US. 6 Mbps is what is required now for the "HD" quality at 720P resolution.

Every streaming title on Netflix has multiple bit rate versions. As the available bandwidth on your connection fluctuates, the players will dynamically change the version that they use. If your connection has a generally low bit rate you'll get a low bit rate version of the stream with lower PQ; if your connection has a high bit rate you'll get a better version. If your bit rate is high enough, you'll get one of two HD versions of the stream, if they exist. It's called Adaptive Bit Rate Streaming (let's call it ABRS for short). Most of the Netflix players have to pause and rebuffer to change versions of the stream; some (like the Xbox's player) have implemented algorithms to make switches from one version of a stream to another smoothly without stopping to rebuffer if they can help it. "Smooth Streaming" ABRS players, like the Zune player on Xbox, always do it without skipping a beat, varying between three or four levels of SD quality and three of HD up to 1080p (if the stream has HD encodings).

Netflix can add new versions of streams, in addition to the ones that already exist, that require higher bit rates for higher PQ and higher AQ. The new PS3 player may be prepared to handle and request such encodings when they're available (whether or not there are any available yet) whereas the older players are not.

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post #110 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Every streaming title on Netflix has multiple bit rate versions. As the available bandwidth on your connection fluctuates, the players will dynamically changes the version that they use. If your connection has a generally low bit rate you'll get a low bit rate version of the stream with lower PQ; if your connection has a high bit rate you'll get a better version. If your bit rate is high enough, you'll get one of two HD versions of the stream, if they exist. It's called Adaptive Bit Rate Streaming (let's call it ABRS for short). Most of the Netflix players have to pause and rebuffer to change versions of the stream; some (like the Xbox's player) have implemented algorithms to make switches from one version of a stream to another smoothly without stopping to rebuffer if they can help it. "Smooth Streaming" ABRS players, like the Zune player on Xbox, always do it without skipping a beat, varying between three or four levels of SD quality and two of HD up to 1080p (if the stream has HD encodings).

Netflix can add new versions of streams, in addition to the ones that already exist, that require higher bit rates for higher PQ and higher AQ. The new PS3 player may be prepared to handle and request such encodings when they're available (whether or not there are any available yet) whereas the older players are not.

I think I have already said the bitrate can and should change according to the IP speed, therefore I can't see where we disagree. As for your comment that "The new PS3 player may be prepared to handle and request such encodings when they're available (whether or not there are any available yet) whereas the older players are not" , I disagree. The 1080i/P that circulated on the press all came from the Sony side that now can upscale the signal, nothing to do with a possible 1080i/p streaming.

I absolutely agree that Netflix can add new version of streams, of course they can. What I said is that I don't believe there is NOW anything different from the 480i and 720P we had yesterday. That's what is making a lot of people confused here. There is no 1080i/p stream as of now.

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post #111 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:10 PM
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Oh please, nobody's suing anyone.

I just signed up for it and after watching a bit on my PS3 I'm impressed. On my FIOS 35/35 connection it's pretty smooth going all around. I agree they definitely need to put which content is 5.1/1080p (at least 5.1) because as it stands now it's impossible to know. Also the amount of overscan is a bit annoying, I wish there was some way to adjust the Netflix app for overscan because my HDTV has no such adjustments.

Maybe we should compile a list of shows with 5.1? The Office S6 is definitely DD+ because my receiver shows it as 640k.

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post #112 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:18 PM
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What setups are people using to get 5.1?

I'm running hdmi to a denon 3803 and get silence on all 5.1 streams. The display button indicates 5.1 but all 5.1 programming results in silence.

This is on a fast fios connection, gigabit, etc. Bandwidth isn't the problem.

All audio output types are enabled and the receiver is capable of all audio formats currently on the market.

Hmmm... I've seen a few posts on other forums about this issue but so far no diagnosis.
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post #113 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:20 PM
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>michaeltscott - what happened to your post with the Netflix/Sony quotes? I posted this and the post was gone.

Just to be clear, you're not saying that the above comments mean that the actual data coming from Netflix is at a 1080p resolution? My take is that the PS3 is upscaling it the existing 720p stream.
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post #114 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:22 PM
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Oh, crap--I mistakenly deleted the wrong post .
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Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

Oh please, nobody's suing anyone.

I didn't say that anyone would be sued, but that they could be. It's been done successfully multiple times in the past, which is why you see those "forward looking statement" disclaimers in announcements of upcoming new products . Usually the claim is that business decisions or major investments were made based on incorrect PRs or quoted public statements and that money was lost as a consequence.
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Maybe we should compile a list of shows with 5.1? The Office S6 is definitely DD+ because my receiver shows it as 640k.


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post #115 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Oh, crap--I mistakenly deleted the wrong post .


Here, I still had the email,

---Quote (Originally by slimoli)---
There is NO Netflix press release that mentions anything about 1080i/P streaming, just the 5.1 DD+. When and if Netflix decides to enhance the picture quality you can be sure they will make everybody know.
---End Quote---
From the Netflix blog (http://blog.netflix.com/2010/10/wii-...disc-free.html), as posted today by Greg Peters, Netflix VP of Product Development:

---Quote---
There is even more good news for PS3 owners: starting today you'll be able to instantly watch some movies and TV shows in *1080p high definition* with Dolby 5.1 channel surround sound.
---End Quote---
Not a PR, but a statement by a Netflix corporate officer, for which they can be sued, if fraudulent.

Okay there's the following announcement on Sony's Playstation 3 blog (here (http://blog.us.playstation.com/2010/...netflixps3/)):

---Quote---
Eric Lempel | October 14th, 2010 at 9:56 am
A quick update, we have received *a new version of the application from Netflix* and we're happy to report that the PlayStation 3 app will support 1080p.
---End Quote---
Though I'm sure that Sony et al. are allowed to adjust things to their taste, I think that Netflix is largely responsible for the streaming portions of these players (I think that the BD player ones are slightly customized versions of the same BD-J app). That Netflix gave them a new version which "will support 1080p" suggests more upconversion to 1080p, for which I'm fairly sure they wouldn't need Netflix' help at all.
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post #116 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:30 PM
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[quote=keenan;19355478Just to be clear, you're not saying that the above comments mean that the actual data coming from Netflix is at a 1080p resolution? My take is that the PS3 is upscaling it the existing 720p stream.[/QUOTE]I'm not saying that any 1080p encodings are available on Netflix, but that this new PS3 player is capable of using them when they appear.

From the Netflix blog, as posted today by Greg Peters, Netflix VP of Product Development:
Quote:


There is even more good news for PS3 owners: starting today you’ll be able to instantly watch some movies and TV shows in 1080p high definition with Dolby 5.1 channel surround sound.

As I posted earlier today in this thread there's an announcement of 1080p on the official Playstation blog at Sony's site:
Quote:


Eric Lempel | October 14th, 2010 at 9:56 am
A quick update, we have received a new version of the application from Netflix and we’re happy to report that the PlayStation 3 app will support 1080p.

To my mind "will support" 1080p implies more than "will upconvert everything to" 1080p, for which they definitely would not need Netflix' help. Neither Sony or Netflix has mentioned upconversion--people in this thread are calling it upconversion because it's upconverting all lower resolution streams to 1080p--that doesn't mean that it can't also have code ready to deal with 1080p encodings as Netflix makes them available.

It's not a point worth arguing since until they issue a more explicitly worded statement we can't

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post #117 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

Though I'm sure that Sony et al. are allowed to adjust things to their taste, I think that Netflix is largely responsible for the streaming portions of these players (I think that the BD player ones are slightly customized versions of the same BD-J app). That Netflix gave them a new version which "will support 1080p" suggests more upconversion to 1080p, for which I'm fairly sure they wouldn't need Netflix' help at all.

This is a Netflix software on a Sony device, maybe they do need Netflix.

OK. There are few people here who believe there is a 1080i/P stream. Lets do a test:

-I think everybody agrees (or does not ?) that a 1080P HD movie using the same bitrate as the old 720P would look worse on any screen. If that's true, a 1080i/p movie would be streamed at a higher bandwidth, right ? Current max bitrate on 720P is 5.5 Mbps.

Let's do the test. There are people here with a 6 Mbps connection. If they can get the best quality HD (use the display key) with 6 Mbps, with any movie or show, it will show there isn't anything encoded at higher bitrate than 6 Mbps, right ?

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post #118 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I'm not saying that any 1080p encodings are available on Netflix, but that this new PS3 player is capable of using them when they appear.

From the Netflix blog, as posted today by Greg Peters, Netflix VP of Product Development:


As I posted earlier today in this thread there's an announcement of 1080p on the official Playstation blog at Sony's site:
To my mind "will support" 1080p implies more than "will upconvert everything to" 1080p, for which they definitely would not need Netflix' help. Neither Sony or Netflix has mentioned upconversion--people in this thread are calling it upconversion because it's upconverting all lower resolution streams to 1080p--that doesn't mean that it can't also have code ready to deal with 1080p encodings as Netflix makes them available.

It's not a point worth arguing since until they issue a more explicitly worded statement we can't

Okay, we agree then, the app itself is capable of 1080p, not that there's any 1080p content available at the present time. I just wanted to be clear as there are a lot of folks on this board who think otherwise.
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post #119 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

This is a Netflix software on a Sony device, maybe they do need Netflix.

OK. There are few people here who believe there is a 1080i/P stream. Lets do a test:

-I think everybody agrees (or does not ?) that a 1080P HD movie using the same bitrate as the old 720P would look worse on any screen. If that's true, a 1080i/p movie would be streamed at a higher bandwidth, right ? Current max bitrate on 720P is 5.5 Mbps.

Let's do the test. There are people here with a 6 Mbps connection. If they can get the best quality HD (use the display key) with 6 Mbps, with any movie or show, it will show there isn't anything encoded at higher bitrate than 6 Mbps, right ?

That's Mike's post, not mine.
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post #120 of 426 Old 10-18-2010, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by keenan View Post

That's Mike's post, not mine.

Sorry Keenan.

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