Best possible Netflix streaming device - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Interesting post there, Michael.

I decided to move it to the "Netflix streaming quality" thread, here.

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post #542 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 01:23 PM
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My Insignia (Best Buy brand) Blu-ray player arrived. Surprisingly, this cheapo Chinese rebrand supports 1080p24 output for Netflix--but of course the streams it receives are only 720p.

[EDIT: Upon further testing, this appears to be a quirk left by its general support for 1080p24 with regard to Blu-ray rather than an intended feature. The player stays in 24 fps mode for all menus and Netflix content, even 30 fps content, which results in really bad frame drops/stuttering on those videos. The only solution seems to be backing out to the Home screen and turning off Film Mode or inserting a non-24p disc to get it to switch back to 60Hz, then opening up Netflix again...]

It uses a different set of encodes than the PS3/PC. I'll get into that more in my screenshot thread later today, but in comparing them I discovered that the PS3/PC encode set for Ong Bak 2 has been replaced at some point in the past 2 months, and the quality is improved.

However... previously, the descenders on the subtitles were clipped on the X-High encode (as seen in my shot from August) but intact on High (August screenie) and the lower levels (going by memory). Now they're clipped on all quality levels. I triple-checked this since it seems so strange to increase the quality but mess up the subtitles even more.

Meanwhile, they're intact on the 720p encode played by the Insignia.

May I trouble you guys to check other streamers you own to see whether "g, j, q, p, and y" are fully intact on this film?
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post #543 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 01:48 PM
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I don't think that the PS3 and PC share encodes. I think that the PS3 is using AVC with DD sound (introduced when the disc-based PS3 player appeared) and that the PC is using VC-1 with WMA sound. Recently the PC encodings became completely different, with the encoding bit rates being changed from the old 500, 1000, 1500 Kpbs for SD and 2600 and 3800 Kbps for HD to 550, 1050 and 1750 Kbps for SD and 2350 and 3600 for HD.
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

...supports 1080p24 output for Netflix--but of course the streams it receives are only 720p.

Huh? Can we then say that many of the other players "support" 1080p from Netflix (though perhaps not 24p out) because they support 1080p output for other things (all of the BD players)?

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post #544 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Huh? Can we then say that many of the other players "support" 1080p from Netflix (though perhaps not 24p out) because they support 1080p output for other things (all of the BD players)?

I don't think that is what he saying.

His point (if I understand it correctly) is that it will output P24 - unlike the ROKU 2 and PS3. It happens to take Netflix 720P24 encodes and output at 1080P24 (same as many LG Blu-Blayers). I don't think anyone is claiming these support 1080P playback from Netflix.

Unfortunately I currently have to choose between P24 (my BD 390) or 1080P with 5.1 (my ROKU 2 ) - but I can't get all three.
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post #545 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 02:17 PM
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From left field do we know the players outputting 24p are receiving 24p from Netflix or is it being converted to 24p within the player itself?

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post #546 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 02:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Well, I posted a screenshot demonstrating that it does. Do you doubt its veracity?

No, I really like your slides, and I am actually very excited to see the clarity difference. I can see the vertical black line on the left side of the 1 is clearly only 1 pixel wide in the x-high HD, and that the same region is much more blurry in the high HD. It's very easy to see. I don't doubt that the displayed image in the X-high case shows single pixel resolution, but does this guarantee that the original source image (and stream) had single pixel resolution? Is it possible that the PS3 video processing, when interpolating a 720p image, could produce single pixel edges at 1080 under some conditions? Edge enhancement or sharpening might be able to do this. Just wondering.

The ideal case would be if we had a known test pattern where we knew for a fact what the image contained. There are many standard video test patterns that contain alternating black/white lines for exactly this reason. Are there are other patterns in this video? I am not familiar with this particular pattern, so I'm not sure how it is defined.
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post #547 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

From left field do we know the players outputting 24p are receiving 24p from Netflix or is it being converted to 24p within the player itself?

Most of the stream and download online video sources encode "filmic" material and a large amount of HD television as 24p, with some videotaped stuff encoded as 30p. It's what they get as source so it's the easiest thing to do. I occasionally miss recording one of my favorite programs and end up buying streams or downloads; I currently have 10 of these on my PC HDD from different sources and all of them are encoded 24p. It's easy for the players to convert, though most curiously don't have the ability to play it at 24p even if the television can accept it .

Go to Netflix and play a stream to your PC. Before blowing the player up to fullscreen, click the window to give it focus and type CTRL-SHIFT-ALT M and choose "A/V Stats" from the little menu that pops up (for some reason right now I had to pause the video before that would work but I haven't had to before). Some information will be overlayed on the video and updated in real time, one bit of which is the number of frames rendered/dropped over the past second. I just looked at an episode of the Warehouse 13 which was 24p and then an episode of the new Doctor Who which was 30p.

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post #548 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

From left field do we know the players outputting 24p are receiving 24p from Netflix or is it being converted to 24p within the player itself?

On the BD390 you set it to output 1080P24

Some Netflix shows and movies then output at 1080P24 (including the infamous '23.976' test streams - search '23.976' on Netflix) - the assumption is that these are 24P streams.

All other Netflix shows and movies are output at 1080P60 - the assumption is these are 60i, 30P etc streams.

The 24P streams look a lot smoother - at least to me.

On my ROKU 2 everything is output at 1080P60 - the '23.976' streams show hitching.
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post #549 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

On the BD390 you set it to output 1080P24

Some Netflix shows and movies then output at 1080P24 (including the infamous '23.976' test streams - search '23.976' on Netflix) - the assumption is that these are 24P streams.

All other Netflix shows and movies are output at 1080P60 - the assumption is these are 60i, 30P etc streams.

The 24P streams look a lot smoother - at least to me.

On my ROKU 2 everything is output at 1080P60 - the '23.976' streams show hitching.

According to Netflix the films are encoded at 24p and video at 30p:
Quote:
Encoded films are normally at 24fps to match the source, while shot-to-video and mixed material is de-interlaced to 30fps (or 25fps for PAL content).
...
As with SD, encodes of film material are at 24fps, and encodes of shot-to-video material are at 30fps (or 25fps for PAL)

Now that's from the very nearly 3 y/o "Encoding for streaming" Netflix blog entry, but I don't think that anything changed. It certainly holds true for the PC encodes, according to their PC player's AV Stats display.

Can you remember some content that emerges from your BD390 as 60p?

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post #550 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Some Netflix shows and movies then output at 1080P24 (including the infamous '23.976' test streams - search '23.976' on Netflix) - the assumption is that these are 24P streams.

All other Netflix shows and movies are output at 1080P60 - the assumption is these are 60i, 30P etc streams.

This is what I was wondering. If people looking for 24p were/are hunting for a ghost. In that most cases content is not being steamed in 24p.

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post #551 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 04:47 PM
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I think he meant that the player outputs 24p or 60p. Of course these would be from 24p and 30p streams respectively.

One more slightly related factoid. PAL originating material is streamed at 30p and output at 60p. It would be cool if this were streamed at 25p and output at 60. This would result in more image data per frame in the same bandwidth. Granted the framerate conversion would then happen on the fly and not via dedicated/expensive hardware in a production studio. Hmmm, I wonder which would actually look better?
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post #552 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

This is what I was wondering. If people looking for 24p were/are hunting for a ghost. In that most cases content is not being steamed in 24p.

My experience is that majority of Netflix streams are at the native framerate. This is why I bought an LG player. They are capable of 720p24 Netflix streaming. Almost all the movies and higher budget tv shows are 24p via Netflix.

I may get the new WD player after we get a bandwidth based confirmation that it can play1080p netflix streams at 24p. It reportedly is the only player that does this.
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post #553 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

This is why I bought an LG player.

I tried a few LG players (in the past) and they really pumped up the intra-scene contrast ratio. More or less the TV's torch mode...

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post #554 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post


Can you remember some content that emerges from your BD390 as 60p?

I posted this about 6 months ago - Battlestar Galactica Season 4, Lost Season 5, Being John Malkovich, Cleopatra, Damages Season 1 are all output at P24 by the BD390. While Shutter Island, The Fall and the Good the Bad and the Wierd are all output at P60 (and all judder quite badly at points).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

This is what I was wondering. If people looking for 24p were/are hunting for a ghost. In that most cases content is not being steamed in 24p.

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear - my experience is most recent TV shows and many of the movies are streamed P24 (if the fact that BD390 outputs them at P24 confirms it is a P24 stream).
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post #555 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I don't think that the PS3 and PC share encodes.

I didn't think so either, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

His point (if I understand it correctly) is that it will output P24 - unlike the ROKU 2 and PS3. It happens to take Netflix 720P24 encodes and output at 1080P24 (same as many LG Blu-Blayers).

Yep that's what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpauls View Post

Is it possible that the PS3 video processing, when interpolating a 720p image, could produce single pixel edges at 1080 under some conditions?

The 720p image doesn't even have a black line there (the pixels that appear black are dark yellow). I suppose you could say it would be possible to purpose-build an interpolation algorithm to average pixels together that way, but I wouldn't call it plausible.

Quote:


The ideal case would be if we had a known test pattern where we knew for a fact what the image contained. There are many standard video test patterns that contain alternating black/white lines for exactly this reason. Are there are other patterns in this video? I am not familiar with this particular pattern, so I'm not sure how it is defined.

Unfortunately there are no resolution-specific test patterns in this video, and I haven't found any others (the other variations of the "Example" series are this video at other frame rates and repeated for longer runtimes). The other patterns in the video are things like color bars and various levels of grey.

The "Example" videos are actually a huge mess. Many don't include an X-High stream. The background video of the "Short 23.976 with Burned In Timecode" is actually subsampled. "Example Short 23.976 Remote Content" and "Example 8 Hour 23.976" are rendered correctly (but "Example Short 23.976 Burned In Timecode Remote Content" is again subsampled - confused yet? ).

[EDIT: I've compiled a list of the attributes of the 14 different "Example" videos:]
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
No X-High
Example Show: S1:E1
Example Season 23.976: Episode 1
Example Short 23.976
Example Short 24

Blurred patterns X-High
Example Short 23.976 Burned In Timecode
Example Short 23.976 Burned In Timecode Remote Content
Example 30 Minute 23.976
Example 30 Minute 23.976 Remote Content
Example 2 Hour 23.976
Example 2 Hour 23.976 Remote Content
Example 2 Hour 23.976 Burned In Timecode

Good X-High
Example Short 23.976 Remote Content
Example 8 Hour 23.976
Example 8 Hour 23.976 Remote Content


Example Short 23.976 with Burned In Timecode
Insignia NS-BRDVD4-CA vs PS3 High vs PS3 X-High


The text appears to be generated using AviSynth with no anti-aliasing.

Example Short 23.976 Remote Content + my own timecode generated using
Code:
Subtitle("00:10:23:10 (AviSynth overlay 23.976 RC)",size=64,x=802,y=140)

(again, the yellow text on this one screenshot was added by me and is not part of the original stream)

[EDIT:

And here is a straight screenshot of the Example 8 Hour 23.976 video with no timecode added by me.]

300% zoom of the iffy X-High one, followed by 300% zoom of the perfect X-High one:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Spoiler  
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



The horizontal lines are 1-pixel white surrounded by 1-pixel grey on top/bottom and the vertical lines are 2-pixel white surrounded by black.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

It would be cool if this were streamed at 25p and output at 60.

Torchwood and Sherlock are 25p. This is supported by two pieces of evidence - the PC player's stats and the pulldown pattern that was used when I checked Torchwood from PS3.
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post #556 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

I tried a few LG players (in the past) and they really pumped up the intra-scene contrast ratio. More or less the TV's torch mode...

A little of topic but the BD390 but was pretty well reviewed when it came out a couple of years ago http://www.hometheater.com/content/l...blu-ray-player

It had an issue with passing whiter than white but that was easily sorted with minor adjustments in user mode.

After that all the calibration disks (Spears and Munsil, Disney WOW, AVS HD etc) looked great on a properly set up HDTV.

This is one reason the 720P24 encodes from Netflix on the BD390 actually look pretty good and VUDU looks great.
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post #557 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undecided View Post

Sorry maybe I wasn't clear - my experience is most recent TV shows and many of the movies are streamed P24 (if the fact that BD390 outputs them at P24 confirms it is a P24 stream).

Perfectly clear. I was simply saying that a (good) portion of streaming content isn't 24p. I guess everything except for most.

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post #558 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Torchwood and Sherlock are 25p. This is supported by two pieces of evidence - the PC player's stats and the pulldown pattern that was used when I checked Torchwood from PS3.

Interesting! How do you determine that on the ps3?

Now that I think about it, the PAL shows I checked must have had a separate American release due to soundtrack licensing issues. (actually quite common for tv shows) That could explain it for some titles.
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post #559 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Perfectly clear. I was simply saying that a (good) portion of streaming content isn't 24p. I guess everything except for most.

Sampling 30 of the first films and 30 of the latest (non-Starz Play--all of that is 30p) films added in the PC player, it looks as though 30% or so of films are in 30p, the rest primarily in 24p--I ran into 2 that were 25p. I'd agree that that's "a (good) portion". Of course, some amount of that may have been shot at 30p. The occurence of films encoded at 30p seems about the same in the beginning as today. They encode to the framerate of the source that they're given for a title and I'm sure that they have no control over that.

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post #560 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfiler View Post

Interesting! How do you determine that on the ps3?

Not actually on the PS3, just using the PS3's streaming. Gotta use a capture card and check the frame or field repeats.
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post #561 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 07:49 PM
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It's weird--lots of popular TV is 24p and some fairly old stuff seems to have been fancied up. 21 y/o Law & Order episodes are widescreen and HD; the first L&O:SVU episodes, which aired 9 years later, are 4:3, but 24p. I guess a lot of that stuff was shot to film, but I'm surprised that they'd have shot open matte on widescreen--awfully forward thinking.

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post #562 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

Sampling 30 of the first films and 30 of the latest (non-Starz Play--all of that is 30p) films added in the PC player, it looks as though 30% or so of films are in 30p, the rest primarily in 24p--I ran into 2 that were 25p. I'd agree that that's "a (good) portion".

I'm sure there are plenty of 24p content. I know for me 24p isn't that big of a deal. A long time ago I used the opening chase scene of Casino Royale to compare naive 24p and letting the player/projector convert it to 60p (yes the projector did naive 24p). With a 120 inch image I watched the chase several times via each method and my untrained eyes could never spot a difference. In a A/B test I couldn't have picked one over the another... perhaps if they were side by side... who knows.

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post #563 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 10:11 PM
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The new WD TV Live allows you to force various resolutions regardless of whether your TV officially supports it (great for my Sharp which can support 50Hz):

1080p/60Hz
1080p/50Hz
1080p/24Hz
1080i/60Hz
1060i/50Hz
720p/60Hz
720p/50Hz
576p/50Hz
480p/60Hz
and Auto.

It also supports 12bit color depth.

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post #564 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

It's weird--lots of popular TV is 24p and some fairly old stuff seems to have been fancied up. 21 y/o Law & Order episodes are widescreen and HD; the first L&O:SVU episodes, which aired 9 years later, are 4:3, but 24p. I guess a lot of that stuff was shot to film, but I'm surprised that they'd have shot open matte on widescreen--awfully forward thinking.

The first few seasons of Law & Order are cropped. It is very obvious when the credits text is on the bottom of the screen as they don't have the option of center-cutting. Mike Logan's head is actually chopped off in the first episode. The rest of the time it looks decent. These seasons aired stretched on TNT a few years ago (not sure about now) and air in pillarboxed HD on MyNetworkTV, with horrific speedup to fit the 47 mins with extra commercials. Later seasons (can't remember the exact cutoff) are a combination of slight cropping and a lot of unmatting.

SVU and CI were originally produced in 16:9 HD I believe, but I think only CI aired in HD from the start.

But err, more on topic, has anyone checked those Ong Bak 2 subtitles on a different device?
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post #565 of 1477 Old 10-12-2011, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DaveFi View Post

It also supports 12bit color depth.

You may want to read this - http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/ca...vels-xvycc-rgb quote 'Blu-ray and HD DVD movie formats are limited to 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr' and 'Currently, Hollywood films are telecined directly to digital, with masters stored on D5 tape in 10-bit 4:2:2 format. While this is better than the 8-bit 4:2:0 present on current media, it's still not 12- or 16-bit Deep Color or even utilizing the xvYCC color space. Without mastering and the ability to store xvYCC on source material (other than games which are generated via PC video cards) it seems that xvYCC is largely a marketing gimmick, save the new lines of camcorders, etc which boast 10-bit recording and xvYCC support.'

I doubt any online content will go beyond the Blu-Ray 8-bit 4:2:0 YCbCr.
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post #566 of 1477 Old 10-13-2011, 12:53 AM
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But err, more on topic, has anyone checked those Ong Bak 2 subtitles on a different device?

I tried them on the four devices I have which support subtitles: Roku 2, PS3, Panasonic DMP-BDT110 and this PC. Only the BDT110 does not chop off the descenders for that title. On the others, the subs seem to be hard, part of the video encoding; they're fuzzy in lower bit rate encodings and sharper in higher bit rate ones. I'm not entirely sure, but they seem to be sharp in all encodings on the BDT110, which would argue that they're soft, generated in the player, like closed captions on some of the English language titles. There's a choice for turning them off in the audio & subtitles menu, though it doesn't work on any of them.

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post #567 of 1477 Old 10-13-2011, 01:02 PM
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Thanks! I wondered what the "English (cc)" option on the PS3 was supposed to be since it doesn't seem to do anything.

So the 360 doesn't play subtitles on this movie? This blog post indicates that the subs should be burned-in for all non-English content (which must be annoying for those who speak Thai).
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post #568 of 1477 Old 10-13-2011, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post

Thanks! I wondered what the "English (cc)" option on the PS3 was supposed to be since it doesn't seem to do anything.

So the 360 doesn't play subtitles on this movie? This blog post indicates that the subs should be burned-in for all non-English content (which must be annoying for those who speak Thai).

I hadn't even thought of trying (I haven't run the Xbox Netflix players in months before this). I just tried it and the descenders are there on both the Xbox and TiVo. This would imply that the PS3, Roku 2 and PC encodings are related, and that the Xbox, TiVo and BDT110 are using the same set. I believe that the PC is using new encodings with different bit rates (its "Stream Manager" menu displays different bit rates than before), but perhaps I should do some bit rate testing to determine whether they've changed for the PS3 and Roku 2 as well.

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post #569 of 1477 Old 10-13-2011, 06:48 PM
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It's weird--lots of popular TV is 24p and some fairly old stuff seems to have been fancied up. 21 y/o Law & Order episodes are widescreen and HD; the first L&O:SVU episodes, which aired 9 years later, are 4:3, but 24p. I guess a lot of that stuff was shot to film, but I'm surprised that they'd have shot open matte on widescreen--awfully forward thinking.

Shows that predate video based production studios are easily remastered from the original spliced film. If post production was done on video, chances are the original master is hard telecined. Hence we're stuck with 30p/60i for some shows.

This is why everyone was so flabbergast to hear that Star Trek TNG was being remastered. Because it was edited on video, a true HD remaster means basically starting from scratch with cans of film straight from the camera. I hope that netflix gets the remastered version eventually.

Edit: Hmmm, that still doesn't explain the 4:3 24p. Weird indeed. Any other theories?
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post #570 of 1477 Old 10-13-2011, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by michaeltscott View Post

I believe that the PC is using new encodings with different bit rates (its "Stream Manager" menu displays different bit rates than before), but perhaps I should do some bit rate testing to determine whether they've changed for the PS3 and Roku 2 as well.

Well, I did run some tests () and things have changed a bit. These are results of my standard 10 minute average minutes 5 through 14 of Ong Bak 2:
Code:
                  Old     New
                  ---     ---
PS3 (1080p)    = 5.654   6.282 (+.628 11%)
PS3 (720p)     = 4.299   4.776 (+.477 11%)

Roku 2 (1080p) = 5.620   6.217 (+.597 10.6%)
Roku 2 (720p)  = 4.181   4.752 (+.571 13.6%)
I ran the test on the PS3 3 times to verify my result and twice on the Roku. I think that the old 720p Roku data was off a bit.

Using the 11% increase seen on the PS3, if the 1080p stuff was an aggregate 5.1 Mbps (video+sound), then the new 1080p rate would be 5.66 Mbps; the new 720p rate would be 4.2 Mbps, up from 3.8.

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